David,

I couldn't agree more with your summation query. In particular, native flora really does deserve more respect.

I say this not as a native plant enthusiast, (although I am one) but rather as a pragmatist. I began to include a lot of natives into my designs simply because they typically demanded no pampering once established. Natives so often have an innate ability to address the now popular quest for low maintenance. Add in the aesthetics of unusual textures and landscape presence, coupled with plants rarely seen in a cultivated setting and you have some solid design potential.

Of course, one has to be selective about their native choices. The term "native" does not automatically mean it would be a viable choice, as some native plant fanatics would have you believe. However, it just tickles me how many people actually fawn over some "exotic plant" they have never seen and ask where they could buy one too. It is just too much fun to watch the expression on their face when I tell them, "If you go along the old railroad tracks west of town " Of course, because I grow many of these from collected seed, I eventually offer them one I have started growing in a pot.

IronBelly

Exactly how is native fauna defined? Is a cultivar of a native found in the "wild" out by the rail-road tracks, also considered a native?

Here in Massachusetts barberry and burning bush have been added to the invasive plant list. I have never seen these growing, when I'm out in the woods, they maybe impacting other parts of the State.

Thanks for this - it prompted a quick search and will no doubt result in some further contemplation.

An overview: Native plants are those that evolved naturally without direct human intervention in North America before white or European settlement. Non-natives can be referred to as "exotics" even though they were introduced hundreds of years ago. More specifically, native plants in a particular area are those that were growing naturally in the area before humans introduced plants from distant places.

We have over 2400 native species here in MN and 191 are listed on the endangered list or require special concern.

I'm pleased I have some natives - violets, Aquilegia Canadensis, sugar maples, basswood, paper birch as well as some conifers...

But our University Extension Center goes on to say..."No plant is ethically "better" than another it all depends on the way you need to use it. Natives are certainly an excellent choice for giving a natural, regional look to your home. They are not automatically more disease resistant, drought tolerant, hardier, or easier to grow than are non-natives. The "best" landscape is one where a broad range of plants is carefully chosen to fit the local site, soil, climatic conditions, and preferences of the homeowner. Gardens are for people after all, and are meant to be enjoyed."

I hear these kinds of comments a lot. The definition of "native" can (and often does) generate hot debate -- something better left to another thread. Personally, I subscribe to: "present prior to European arrival." You define it as you like.

Of course, the word "cultivar" is merely a conjunction of "cultivated variety". If you select a plant from a grouping - even a wild grouping - and propagate/clone that individual because of some superior characteristic; the progeny are cultivars.

Many times I have listened to local people pooh-poohing the spread of barberry, burning bush and other exotic invasives. Perhaps their definition of being "out in the woods" is far different than mine. However, I can often readily find infestations where they assure me there is none. Perhaps they see only the forest and not the shrub.

Almost without exception, these are popular, garden center plants often offered at discount prices; compared to similarly sized shrubs. Why is this? The answer is that those plants are so darn easy to propagate. Easy to propagate means that they can be multiplied and offered for sale quite cheaply. The downside is that this ease of propagation also assists in the proliferation of these plants in the wild where they are not desired; as they displace not-so-easy to propagate native plants.

So ... back to the thrust of David's original posting:
Do others also feel that their native flora deserves more respect and have changed their design perspective accordingly?

IB

I like native plants best in the natural environment. They contribute a great deal to my enjoyment of hikes in the local hills and more distant mountains.

I went through a brief phase with natives in my garden. After a season, most disappeared, never to return. Romneya coulterii, on the other hand, tried to take over the entire lot, becoming a rangy, stickery mess, despite my efforts to control it. Now the sole survivor is an unobtrustive mimulus from the Channel Islands, offering small tufts of soft grey-green finely textured foliage and tubular orange flowers in spring and summer. It doesn't really fit with the rest of the garden, but the hummingbirds like it.

By definition, natives will vary greatly from one location and climate to another. I've seen them used successfully around here, (ceonothus in particular) but they don't excite me much, tending to be dry and crisp come summertime, where my preference is for lush greens and large leaves.

Catkim is touching on my thoughts on this subject. We are talking apples and oranges here. There are many individual gardeners devoted to using native plants. Some parts of the country have a better selection than others. But...the landscaper has an obligation to a client to present a finished plan suitable to the site that looks well twelve months of the year. If part of that can be done with native plants that exhibit pleasing characteristics, show well in the given growing conditions, then they certainly should be considered. However, I have no problem with using plants native to other areas/countries in a landscape if they meet the needs of the site.

Sadly, some gardeners have become so smitten with native plants that they seek and raid patches of rare, endangered types. An example is the Florida Ghost orchid (Dendrophlax linderrii) which grows deep in alligator infested swamps, yet collectors risk their lives searching for this treasure.

Here in South Carolina we have a delicious assortment of native plants, many commonly used in our landscapes. Woodlander's Nursery has been a leader in bringing
SC native plants to the retail market.

I'm lucky enough to live in a woodland, so I'm generally surrounded by native plants. I regularly transplant things I find in the woods closer to the house where its easier to enjoy them. I recently found a 'Euonymus americana' growing at the base of my bird feeder pole, and I've started to train it up the pole - I love that plant!

I'm also fortunate to have a specialty nursery close by that offers nothing but natives. My latest favorite is a deciduous "flame" azalea - truly a knock-out in the spring, and such a different color than anything else native.

I personally like a blend of native plants and exotics. I'm huge on Japanese Maples and conifers of all sorts. But I think these non-natives look much more natural in the landscape when paired with native plants like ferns, columbine, azaleas, oakleaf hydrangeas, viburnums, American beautyberry, solomon's seal, wild ginger, spiderwort and mosses. I've also had good luck with native grasses, and there are some beautiful clump-forming varieties on my property that volunteer for me on a regular basis. They're super drought tolerant.

Native trees definitely form the backbone of my landscape, with Oaks, Dogwoods, Ash, Hickory and native Maples taking center stage. Eastern Red Cedar is just about the only native conifer I have growing on the property, and I have a few older specimens that I just love - they look a little like Giant Sequoia, only without the "Giant"! :-) They're nearly indestructible! I also discovered a native Holly (Ilex opaca) growing in the woods, which I have been protecting and coddling along during the past couple of drought years. Its very unusual to find one here.

Finally, I have to say my favorite of all the native trees and plants on my land is 'Oxydendrum arboreum', the Sourwood tree. It has a natural elegance and grace that is really unbeatable! Its simply beautiful all year round. It truly deserves a larger place as a landscape plant in American gardens.

Regards,

K4

P.S. We also contend with some very unruly "exotics" in the South, chief of which are Kudzu and honeysuckle. Both are from Japan, and both seem to love the climate here. Kudzu is astonishing in so many ways - huge leaves, lightning-fast growth, the ability to grow up and over (and kill) giant hardwood trees. Its also nearly impossible to eradicate. Honesuckle is so wide-spread many people think its a native plant, unfortunately. At least it responds to moderate eradication efforts. There are other invaders out there, of course, but these rate as the worst in my book.

Do others also feel that their native flora deserves more respect and have changed their design perspective accordingly?

My answer would be yes... but mainly for more practical consideration that they are adapted to the forest setting that I live in. The woodland areas are well established with years of leafmold and far reaching tree roots, and throwing in a plant not adapted for this regime would be a futile effort. For example using Mt.Laurels for shadey spots amongst established trees. Yes there are non-natives that are similarly adapted for such environments, but I give preference to the natives. Generally the list of natives or their cultivars is extensive enough that landscape expression is not hindered by a natives-first (but not only) preference (see link below). I would plant a non-native, if it's characteristics fitted a niche that I needed filled.

My favorite natives found on my land are pokeweed and virgina creeper, which are fairly aggresive in their own right. Dog-hobble is another under-rated favorite. It's one of the few plants that can take the cold and still have a spring time vibrance.

I think I lean more towards the philosophy that Nandina expresses. I use native plants when I can and when they seem appropriate but I am not a purist. Many of our local natives are just not well-suited for the mostly urban/smaller suburban sites I work with - they tend to grow rather large and look a bit wild and wooly and the majority seem to be best suited to a more wooded setting than most of my design projects engender. The larger the property and the more heavily wooded it is, the greater my use of native species tends to be. Although smaller, lower growing perennial and groundcover-type plants get used regularly - native ferns, salal, kinnikinnick, Vancouveria. They are hard to beat in just about any setting.

And I am not above selecting cultivated native plants - those cultivars or even hybrids that have their parentage in native species but have been bred and selected for superior features that make them a bit more garden-worthy. Selections of flowering currant (Ribes sanguineum), ceanothus and osier dogwoods come immediately to mind. Personally, I think these may be the best of both worlds. For the most part, these retain the hardiness and durability of the natives and offer similar degrees of drought tolerance and soil adaptability, but generally have better scale and improved form or flowering. But I will also use many 'exotics' that offer similar characteristics - if they meet the requirements of the site, satisfy the client's desire for a more 'showy' plant and offer the same tendencies to drought tolerance, disease and pest resistance and low maintenance (and that includes avoiding invasives), then they rightly earn their place in the landscape. Fortunately, there is a wide range of both these and cultivars of native species readily available locally, so my palette is broad.

To deviate from the main topic again... sorry. I did find it quite interesting, while reading on European gardens plant selections, that they import Joe-Pye Weed. It does seem that some of our "N. American native" are under-rated here but accepted with acclaim abroad.

Rhodium,
The lust for something from somewhere else is always part of human nature, and the English have been particularly adept at adopting both west coast USA and east coast USA plants into their gardens, or hybridizing them and making them popular in our gardens! As a fellow landscape designer similar to Nandina and Gardengal, using plants from all over is probably more common than not within the profession. I also tend to use cultivars of natives more so than pure species, and also find that I tend to use California natives from outside my local area more often than not, with particular emphasis on coastal southern California plants and the off shore islands including northern Baja California. Often these plants have very desirable characteristics of winter bloom, drought tolerance, and year round good looks with a little supplemental summer water. What they don't have is often related to their intolerance for summer wet soils, frost, and not always available in large quantities.

It is so much easier to source California native plants these days, than it was 20 or 30 years ago, and many plants are now California staples in the trade. I can remember being rather obsessed with drought tolerant natives when I was still a landscape architecture student in San Luis Obispo back in the late 1970's, and have a few gardens that I designed back then using almost entirely natives that still hold up today. I think the distinct possibility of severe water rationing ahead of us this summer here in California is bringing me back to the consideration that our natives are usually more adapted to these cycles than most of our common nursery plants. I find myself being more attracted to the plants of extreme southern California's coastal mountains for their good looks under duress of drought, and figure if they are cold hardy enough for here, they certainly are drought tolerant enough, in general. I was particularly attracted to some of the desert type plants such as Yucca whipplei, Agave shawii, and a beautiful blue foliaged Nolina interrata, which I had never seen offered in the trade. It stuck me that all these plants had great structural form and quiet grace, and were worth searching for. Other rarities that caught my eye that Sunday included a native Ephedra viridis with lovely textural bare green stems, and a Southern Mountain Misery, Chamaebatia australis with ferny foliage, cascading form on a large shrub to 8 feet tall by across, and dappled with small rose like white petalled flowers in mid January. Of course none of these are actually native to my area, but are California native plants. I would add them to the other soouthern California natives that I already use for their ornamental qualities such as Leymus condensatus 'Canyon Prince', Salvia clevelandii, Salvia leucophylla, etc. None of these are particularly useful as perennials outside coastal California for their lack of winter cold tolerance, but work very well here in San Francisco and vicinity, and all are easily available today.

My walk through the botanic garden also got me to thinking that I should use more of the locally abundant Manzanitas and Ceanothus shrubs, which are the backbone of our local chaparral shrub vegetation which covers our hillsides when it is not grasslands or oak woodlands. The subtle grace of the sinuous smooth cinnamon trunks of the Manzanitas with their tiny bell shaped flowers and often waxy gray or green leaves just look so right in our location, but are often overlooked. The Ceanothus/California Lilacs are also background plants most of the year, until they burst into bloom with their variations on a blue theme that simply cover the plants. The stark craggy white branching of the native California Buckeye against the deep greens of Live Oaks and Bays is also arresting, as are the grace notes of the Big Leaf Maples/Acer macrophyllum with the remnants of their mellow yellow foliage still hanging on the trees, or caught in the eddies of the local creeks. Maybe this seemed all the more memorable as experienced on a summer like day with 70F temps in the middle of January, against a brilliant blue sky and distant views of San Francisco and the Golden Gate. Even the drive up to Tilden Park was impressive, for the amount of hillsides covered in blocks of Australian Eucalyptus alternating with native oaks, redwoods(only in north facing ravines and ridge tops where they can harvest the fog drip and stay moister). The patterns of vegetation on the hills as they represent where each plant is most successful is also something to take away from this experience; to try and replicate some semblance of plant communities within a garden setting to make it seem more grounded with the conditions.

All this thinking about garden design may take up more of my time these days, as the local economy nosedives and the jobs just don't come in like they used to. It is a bit frustrating to have all these ideas and feel at the peak of my creativity, but have no new work.. The work that does appear is more in the nature of quick garden makeovers on limited $5000 budgets, which almost seems full circle with what I was doing right out of school!

I guess I shouldn't complain too much, as we are still able to be making gardens in the middle of winter here, and the lack of rains is actually a blessing for doing heavy soil prep for a job site that was full of construction debris, concrete, etc and needed heavy amending to the clay soils. It would have been ridiculously more tiresome to be doing all this if we had been getting the rains and weather that Seattle has had the past month! Installing new gardens in late fall/early winter has proven to be very successful for me, as the plants get better established before the summer dry season, as long as the soil isn't too compacted by working it when too wet. Large plastic tarps to keep things dry until the soil is amended has proven to be quite useful, as well as the drip irrigation systems to economize on the water applications and heavy mulching. I do tend to regret that the economies achieved with mulching tend to eliminate the possibilities of attracting our native California bees, which require bare soil for their nests, but we can't really replicate a natural system, but only come as close as we can. The better chance for our wildlife is to retain enough wild areas in our surroundings so that the natives can survive, and try to maintain these wilder areas so that they aren't overwhelmed by aggressive non-natives such as Eucalyptus globulus/Blue Gum or similar.

To illustrate my point about the regional variation of natives, the photo below shows the mostly undisturbed native flora just a few miles from my home. If people did not plant things and water them, this would be the landscape. While this presents a certain stark beauty out in the countryside along the coast, it doesn't meet my needs for my own garden. David will find in this photo certain plants he would use to mix in with a complete palette of plants -- the tall white fenceposts are not all fenceposts, some are dried yucca stems, and a close inspection will undoubtedly reveal some useful succulents -- but even those who are enamored of xeric gardens will desire more variety and visual impact than nature provides here.

{{gwi:8559}}
(photo credit: Cristobal)

We are challenged by the simple fact that it doesn't rain enough here to allow unrestricted water use for something as frivolous as an ornamental garden, so we constantly look for innovative ways to cut back on water use and still have some kind of pleasant garden.

This thread is following a trend that supports my earlier suspicions that native plant interest and especially native plantings, have a strong regional bias. The region of greatest activity seems to be limited to the mid-section of the USA; roughly between Chicago and Denver. Interestingly enough, this is the same area covered historically by the tall and short grass prairie. Also (not coincidentally), this is the same area of the continent where many of the plants typically offered on the garden center shelves do not perform especially well.

A new book I would like to recommend (No it is not a native plant book.) is: Plant-Driven Design: Creating Gardens That Honor Plants, Place, and Spirit by Scott Ogden and Lauren Springer Ogden. I suggest this book for many reasons; not the least of which it challenges the standard approach to landscape design proffered by academia. Much to this books credit, it forthrightly explores and addresses variances in regional horticultural demands.

Although rarely mentioned, (and I dont remember it being mentioned in the above book either) the constant presence of winds unfettered by woodland growth is a determining factor. While I may have proper soil, sun and moisture conditions to grow many of the same plants offered on the garden center shelves across the USA, they are often just too wimpy. That gorgeous Sum and Substance Hosta with its huge leaves soon becomes shredded coleslaw on a stick and sometimes the stick gets blown away too!

Many of us in the mid-section of this country need plants better adapted to our regional conditions. We are beginning to find those needs being better addressed with some of our local, much-too-long overlooked natives. As a delightful side benefit, many of these native plants bring aesthetic, textural, architectural and design benefits.

One of those design benefits is that many of these plants import a strong sense of regional presence something that I find important. I have grown weary of seeing essentially the same old garden fare planted everywhere I go.

Another aspect of design (I guess you could call it that. ???) that I never hear being discussed on this forum is the importance of the what I call "the story factor". Many of these plants are associated with a rich history of delightful tales and anecdotes about the inner working of plants just waiting to be told. As evidence of this, I need only point to the popularity of Ken Druses new book, Planthropology.

We readily concede the value of "grandma plants" in our landscapes but have largely overlooked the value of other forms of endearment. Take for example, a rather insipid looking plant of European origin: the true marsh mallow (Althaea officinalis). This is the actual plant from which that well know confection was originally made. Without that knowledge, one might wonder why anyone would bother to plant such a thing. Once you tell people the story behind this mundane plant, they fall in love with it. In effect, it becomes a focal point; albeit a focal point lacking in visual strength.

As a tangent to this "story factor" one can look to studying the history of great European gardens. We can simply enjoy looking at them in present day. However, once the stories behind the huge amount of symbolism (largely remaining oblivious to most in this modern day) originally incorporated into these gardens is explained, a richness of design unfolds.

I try to avail my landscape design to include the power of the story factor; which certainly heightens a regional sense of place. To me, landscape design is like picante sauce it shouldnt come from New York City.

IronBelly

An involved idea is that native plants are inherently easier. Those natives offered at local outlets will tend to be those that local growers and others and designers will have found to lend themselves to horticultural use, including mass plantings of "natives" (sometimes including related species of exotic origins) along highways and at park and ride lots etc. But many others will be as difficult to cultivate as any exotic.

Native just means found wild in a certain area, depending on the individual definition. Assignment of other characteristics is painting with a broad brush. Natives can be tiny or huge, showy or inconspicuous, drought adapted or moisture loving, easy or hard.

I am not so sure that I agree with that premise (native plants are inherently easier), bboy. One doesn't have to look very far to see "native plantings" looking disastrous -- most often larger, municipal plantings. On the other hand, we see a lot of disasters posted on this forum without a native plant in sight. The plants - native, exotic or whatever - are not to blame. Lack of design is the culprit.

All of the same design rules (ie: Right plant - Right place.) still apply. Native plants are simply another tool in the toolbox. Unfortunately, there are far too many folks who believe that "design" is just another word for "plant selection". They always ask, "What should I plant?" Some even further miss the point by believing that the "secret" is going to be revealed when they plant natives.

But back to David's original query ... In spite of saying all of the above; I still find unique qualities being offered by many of my local natives that I find difficult to replicate off the shelf. Some see it and some don't.

Embarrassingly so, Europeans have often shown a better sense of recognizing that our native flora deserves more respect than we who live here.

IronBelly

I agree that Europeans have probably found more use for north American native plants than we have here in north America, but this tends from the same impulse almost all gardeners have to "grow something different". The very reason that the English in particular have introduced so many american native plants into their nursery trade and gardens over the centuries has to do with their "exotic" appeal. I would suspect that the relative lack of great plant diversity in England in particular also has something to do with it.

As to background stories behind plants and their uses, no doubt this does help people identify on a more personal level with their gardens, but as Ironbelly states, without the human element to explain it, this reference is lost on most people viewing or using the garden unless it is part of their cultural knowledge set. Probably only obvious, food useful plantings transcend cultural references, and give this message to most people even without being announced.

I am not sure that bboy was saying that he believes natives are necessarily easier to grow, but stating the simple fact that the general public often believes this to be the case. I think that it can be the case if the right plant is matched with the right conditions, and at least in California conditions, season of planting makes all the difference in the world on getting any native plant off to a good start.

I'd also agree that local natives do have a certain qualities that may make them seem more in balance with their surroundings. The twisting, non-linear growth habits of our native Coast Live Oaks just seem a natural fit with the more shaded ravines in the hills where they naturally congregate, and the waxy leaves also seem a good fit for the drying winds of summer they must endure if they are to remain evergreen. Likewise, the Coast Redwoods with their tendency to grow close together, and spread their branches out horizontally to catch the winds are a superb adaptation to harvest the moisture out of the fog and drip it down to their own roots. The predominant dusty greens and grays of coastal oak woodlands and shrubby chaparral vegetation make look dry in a single yard, but is impressive and fitting to the landscape when seen in a larger setting. Even Kim's shot of the rather bleak coastal setting there in San Diego County can have its seasonal moments of glorious spring bloom, while also supporting her contention that most gardeners would not be content to replicate that scene, it would be too monochromatic.

One must also admit that native plants are not as easily manipulated to form an instantly impressive immediate garden scene; the plants available in the nurseries are often smaller, less showy at small sizes, and are not as interesting/floriferous out of season. I ran into this very dilemma when shopping for plants for the latest job I am working on, a spec home going on the market in the dead of winter, and needing immediate appeal with plants going in over a few weeks in January, and on a very tight budget as well. I had intended to use more natives in the mix, particularly drought tolerant ones, as we face mandatory water rationing this summer if we don't get some rain soon. To be honest, given the parameters of the job and the short schedule to pull it off, I went with more typical mediterranean stalwart plants that could be purchased in bloom, or planted as unrooted cuttings filched from my garden or other client's gardens, for immediate impact. Succulents in particular were the plants of choice, as they could so easily be planted in mass quantities from cuttings with no need for roots or soil, and bromeliads used in the same way for the shadier parts of the garden. As the home is spanish mediterranean in style, it also seemed appropriate to use bougainvilleas in full bloom against the sunny stucco walls, and what other vine could possibly give as much color in the middle of winter for a California garden,(the other logical choice, Hardenbergia violacea from Australia are not in full bloom just yet).

I'll have to save the natives idea for the next garden project over in San Francisco, for a new client who wants primarily natives along with butterfly plants, but also enjoys succulents. I still see myself gravitating towards the use of more natives in my designs, but they won't be the instant, mature looking gardens that I've become accustomed to designing. It probably fits in better with the leaner budgets that the current economy dictates, as well as the water rationing so clearly in our local future. Who would have thought that January would be so dry and even warm(yesterday it was 70F!), that it would feel like summer here near San Francisco? If we had been getting slammed with rain like those just up to our north in Portland and Seattle, this installation would have been miserable, and I don't know how I would have dealt with the heavy clay soils needing amending, and having to dig through the slopes to get rid of all the construction debris of concrete, stucco, rebar, etc.

I do intend to seed the entire backyard with native wildflowers such as poppies and lupines, as there was no budget to actually plant out the backyard. (Then again, it might simply be more effective if I seeded this with Nasturtiums and Forget-me-nots, as these would be both faster and more vigorous...). Our rational being that the incredible backyard panoramic view of the Golden Gate Bridge, San Francisco city and bay and Marin headlands mountains is enough of a selling point. I guess we will see how it is received when the house goes on the market next month!

First of all was OP really attempting to spur about native plants, or was she bragging about the spring like weather and blooming plants where she lives... its -16 degrees where I am at, and we are covered under a blanket of very crisp and frozen snow; meanwhile she is talking about Manzanitas in full bloom, ferns and ginger.... yeah, yeah, yeah....

my thoughts are far from spring...

but I do plant natives in my yard, I encourage people to plant natives in their yard. One problem though is a lot of landscapers are just not familiar with native plants. I have an acquaintance who would like to hire someone to complete her landscape in natives and she is finding it very hard to find anyone who seems qualified.

While it may very well be the depths of winter, not all of us spend it buried under feet of snow. There is a very large portion of this country where all manner of plants grow and bloom during winter months and where gardening and landscaping remain active all year. No one was necessarily bragging about spring-like weather but rather that this generally slower time of year offered the opportunity to get out and see some native plants at their best. And this opportunity naturally triggered the thoughts, expressed so eloquently by Bahia and others, that we often don't do justice to the natives so readily at our disposal.

If you read through the postings again, you'll find responses from an assortment of professional designers located across the country that DO use natives in their designs. Perhaps not exclusively......'exotics' have their place as well and often relying solely on native plants, as catkim's photos illustrate, can result in a stark (at times), and to many, visually unappealing landscape. Once again, as IB plainly states, it is the finesse of the overall design, rather than only plant selection, that makes the difference.

And I'd like to take this opportunity to second the recommendation of the Ogdens' recent publication of Plant-Driven Design. This is a fantastic book that emphasizes site-appropriate plantings in all their permutations and from any origins to create meaningful, beautiful, seasonally timeless and ecologically sensitive garden designs.

When I use natives, it is more for the memories they evoke than issues such as water conservation or wildlife. My husband's grandparents, who were the founders of my garden, replaced the native pine forest with maples and apple trees. Now I'm (slowly) going from maples back to pines, and adding herbaceous plants such as antennarias, sedums and wild strawberries, in one section of the garden. It is true that these modest plants don't make a bold impact, so I feel the need to add some "foreigners" for accent - such as variegated grasses.
I saw a nice mix of natives and imported plants in Finland this summer, in a park where a natural-looking planting of oxeye daisies, wild achilleas and lythrum was enhanced by colorful patches of Caradonna salvias and various perennial geraniums. The large areas of exposed granite, and a pond with a gray wooden deck did a lot to make the plants stand out.

Note the picture that catkim posted as it shows a boulder field in a very dry climate. If one were to start digging around those native plants pictured you would discover that the root systems have grown under available rocks seeking coolness and pockets under the rocks where slight moisture may have been retained. It is possible to use this same idea when planting for drought conditions.

For the sake of discussion, let's suppose that Bahia would like to incorporate a few specimen rose shrubs in his dry landscape plan which require more water. They will survive happily if planted with the root system under a large flat rock or next to a large boulder placed in the landscape. If using a flat rock it can be covered with mulch and not be visable. This is also a method to be considered for tender plants that freeze back in winter. Their root systems are protected under a rock and they will resprout again in the spring. I have used this technique many, many times over the years with good results.

"site-appropriate plantings in all their permutations and from any origins to create meaningful, beautiful, seasonally timeless and ecologically sensitive garden designs" this is a tall order made more difficult if we exaggerate the importance of any one aspect and neglect another.

If we are insistent on using ONLY local native plants then the possibilities for a site appropriate design are severely limited. Where I live the ground is frozen from November until April and more often than not, covered with snow too(it was minus 27C the day before yesterday). Plants that survive the cold are often broken down by the weight of snow and winter protection looks like a badly bandaged wound. When spring comes around and grass turns green again the desire is for colour which only comes in subdued form in natives which abound in the nearby countryside anyway. What people want in there garden is amnesia or anything that helps them forget the winter deprivations. I have yet to discover if recent financial trends will have people preferring twelve months of drab.

I have about 25 different cultivars of native hollies (Ilex opaca, Ilex decidua, Ilex verticillata) for sale at my nursery. For a new 2009 nursery catalog, please send a 42 cent stamp to: Piping Tree Gardens & Nursery, 13171 Scotchtown Road, Beaverdam, VA 23015.

hollybygolly, I trust you understand that what you posted is considered advertising and as such, is prohibited form these forums?

From the GW Terms of Usage:
Any use by you of any other member.s or site visitor.s information, personal or otherwise, for any purpose, commercial or otherwise, or to obtain direct financial gain (e.g. mass marketing) is prohibited. Any such use shall be deemed to be a violation of these Terms of Service. The GardenWeb Network is to be used by you for your personal use only. Commercial uses of the GardenWeb Network are strictly prohibited unless prior written consent from iVillage has been granted.

hollybygolly, I see masses of junk mail in your future.

This thread is just like the real thing ... You try very hard to get natives established and then invasive "weeds" start showing up.

IronBelly

And yet those natives just keep getting better and better. Sorry if it sounds like climate bragging, but winter is our season of rebirth here in coastal northern California, and things are just jumping. I've already seen the first Califoria poppies blooming, (along with seeding a whole hillside of them on this latest spec home landscape), and shrubs like the Silk Tassle, Garrya elliptica are looking fantastic right now with their long dangling earrings of white tassles against verdant green foliage. The first of the Ceanothus/California lilacs are also popping, and I have been munching on the Miner's Lettuce, a local native that can actually be kind of weedy in a garden setting, for weeks now. The flowering season will just continue to get more and more colorful through about the end of April, and the Baby Blue Eyes and several species of Clarkia I planted out from 4 inch pots from Annie's Annuals here in Richmond back in December are already bursting into bloom as well. The real possibility of severe water rationing starting later this spring is still threatening us locally, but we even have some 2 days of rains forecast to hit tomorrow, ending this unseasonably warm spell with low 70'sF here in Berkeley. I spent the day up in Sonoma County yesterday wholesale nursery shopping, and enjoyed the scenery immensely, especially the green hillsides with the massive Valley Oaks dotted here and there. I must say, a lot of the Coast Redwoods planted along the Hwy 101 freeway medians did look rather stressed out from several subpar rainfall years, but those redwoods that had planted themselves did not appear to be suffering. The first of the flowering plums are also bursting out in bloom here, as well as all the non-native Acacia dealbata and many varieties of Magnolia soulangeana, M. denudata, M. stellata, etc. The first of the South African Leucadendrons are also getting ready to pump up the volume as well.

It sure would be tough to be looking out at gray skies and dirty snow and below freezing temps in comparison to our local conditions, but then again, it isn't exactly tropical swimming in the ocean weather here either, but all in all, a gorgeous California winter's day, and the promise of some much needed rains.

And I can't get too worked up about nurseries pigging back on this thread to self-promote, even if it is prohibited. I understand the underlying sense of feeling a bit desperate, what with the slow down in spending, but come on! Be a little more subtle about how you do it, and I bet it would be more successful! It does seem to show that there is no one doing what Spike used to do with yanking threads into the ether...

I think my approach is similar to K4 -- I have a blend of both native and non-native varieties on my property and what I choose depends upon the look and feel I'm trying to achieve. While searching for plant material that would fit into my overall design ideas for our country property I was frustrated in finding the "same old, same old" plant materials pushed by most nurseries. So I spent one winter researching and discovered the advantage of variety that native plants brought. Now my landscape could fit the look I wanted without looking like everyone elses yard. I am a confirmed tree and shrub addict and now I first look to see if a native plant will suit my purposes but I can't say that's all I'll use. I do question as well though the theory that native varieties are always more hardy / disease resistant. Like almost any other plant type, some are more prone to bug problems than others. In our area for example grey dogwood and Amelanchier alnifolia leaves can get pretty bedraggled some years although the plant is still hardy. In more natural areas of our yard that is OK, but up close to the house in the more 'ornamental' gardens I would choose a non-native over these natives if need be. But in short, people should consider natives more, just for the added variety in your landscape.

Sharon

You know with a handle of gonativegal I had to have my say, although it's a bit late on this thread.

I will confess to, once upon a time, being a purist but am no longer. There's a place for everything. I have found that pushing the all native theme often times completely turns new gardeners off and aggravates long time gardeners. The purpose is to inspire not come across as judgemental.

When it comes to clients I try to create combinations of non-natives, some cultivars and regional natives. I call it responsible gardening - something that will appeal to most, not look weedy and spread like the dickens and still be sustainable without any or much supplemental watering or fertilizing.

I still prefer on a personal level all (or mostly) native gardens and believe that they can be done & maintained well in an urban situation and still look lovely (I've posted a few pictures in the past to support this) but the fact is that they are not for everyone and that needs to be respected as well.