Yes hybrids can be organic. "Organic" as the term is usually used in gardening is just a method of growing. So-called "organic hybrid seeds" are just seeds that were grown using organic gardening methods.

No hybrids will not produce true to form if you save the seeds. They may produce but not true. Only open pollinated varieties will do that.

One can garden "organically" without buying "organic grown seeds" whether they be hybrid or open pollinated varieties.

Dave

Dave, another question for you. if seed or plant we buy is not organic, I understand that we can grow it organically by not using any chemical fertilizers or pesticides, however the seed/plant would already be tainted with chemicals from parents no?

I am of the opinion that for true organic one should get organic seeds as well. On it being hybrid doesnt affect.

Thanks Dave! I've been keeping up with seeds that are hybrid or heirloom and was not sure if organic played a role in it.

Behlgarden, I think it really depends on whether the non-organic plants had been exposed to any systemic chemicals. Systemic chemicals by nature would be retained in the plant tissue for some amount of time. Other chemicals used that are not organic can be quite mobile and will not still be in the plants. Think of the problems with fertilizer runoff. I'm not sure about seed, considering how small they are compared to the parent plant and the plant they turn into. I should think nonorganic seed would be a much smaller risk for "contamination". But if you want to be absolutely sure, then organic seed would be the way to go.

I realize I'm not Dave, hopefully he doesn't mind. :)

All plants are organic in the sense that they are organic matter. Seed raised with organic methods should qualify it as organically raised seed as long as it isn't GMO.

When you limit yourself to just open pollinated seed, you limit your choices quite a bit today...your choice.

Maybe a definition of terms would be helpful to our Original Poster.

"Organic" in the sense of Organic Gardening means that the gardener does not use any synthetic chemicals like pesticides, herbicides, or fertilizers. He/she is careful not to edge raised beds with chemically treated lumber, doesn't use Round-up to control weeds, etc. This type of gardening is often referred to as "sustainable" because of its emphasis on the use of manures and compost as fertilizers, etc. that can be continually renewed by nature.

"Hybrid" means that two different varieties of a plant were cross pollinated. Then their seeds were harvested. Those seeds then produce a hybrid of the original plants. Perhaps the baby, or "hybrid", has height like one parent, fruit color of the other parent and so forth. Plants that are grown from hybrid seeds often have greater vigor and disease resistance than either one of the original parents. The disadvantage of hybridization is that the hybrid offspring either don't produce seed that will grow (it's sterile), or that seed will revert to one or the other of the parents and lose the advantages of the hybridization process. Therefore, you have to buy new hybrid seed each year.

Conversely, "Open Pollinated" seed has not been crossed with anything else so its seeds will be viable and will produce new plants just like the parent plant. Therefore, they can be saved from year to year and do not have to be re-purchased.

THEREFORE, any hybrid can be grown with organic methods, so, its fruit is considered "organic". A hybrid can also be grown inorganically, which means it was sprayed with pesticides or herbicides, or fed with inorganic fertilizers which were probably made from petroleum products.

This is very simplistic of course, but that's the gist of it.

Very good Donna.
Even open pollinated may not come true. If you plant apple seeds that are pollinated by only itself, the offspring will not be like the parent but will be unique. First you have to have a selection of seed that has been rogued for many seed generations to get a stable lineage .

Dave, another question for you. if seed or plant we buy is not organic, I understand that we can grow it organically by not using any chemical fertilizers or pesticides, however the seed/plant would already be tainted with chemicals from parents no?

No. The only case that could happen is if as sunnibel said, systemic chemicals of some kind were used. And even in that situation the odds of the seed itself being somehow contaminated is minimal.

I am of the opinion that for true organic one should get organic seeds as well. On it being hybrid doesnt affect.

Then you would be severely limiting yourself in seed choices and availability. Even organically certified growers are not required to use seed labeled "organic" and many consider it to be just a marketing ploy that allows for charging higher prices for what is essentially the same seed.

When you limit yourself to just open pollinated seed, you limit your choices quite a bit today...your choice.

I'm not sure what Wayne means by this so I hope he explains it more. I 'think' he meant if you limit yourself to only organic rather than open pollinated as there is a wealth of well-stabilized, open-pollinated seeds available for most all vegetables.

Even open pollinated may not come true.

I can't speak to apples as I don't raise them but tomatoes, beans, corn, peppers, and most other OP vegetables I can think of do breed true from saved seed when they are self-pollinated. The only issue of genetic purity arises when they are cross-pollinated.

The label open-pollinated, what many confuse with the label "heirloom" which has a very different meaning, is only applied to seeds sold to the public after several generations of stabilization. Granted someone may pick up some seeds in trades or from disreputable sources that have been labeled OP that have NOT been stabilized. But that is due to the source, not the seed itself.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Thanks Dave.

It does help, Dave. I had not considered the difference between "open pollinated" and "heirloom". Great clarification!

These questions become meaningful if the underlying purposes for them are identified. Is your interest Biological? Political? Spiritual? Esthetic? Culinary? Economic? Ethical? Horticultural?

Jim

Dave,

What I meant was that open pollinated seeds only, may limit your choices. Do you raise only op for fresh sweet corn eating? Some may, but I haven't eaten any op sweet corn for about 65 years.

With apples.....The apple trees you purchase are cloned...not open pollinated very likely. These newer varieties of apples are not stabilized seed lines at all, but rather were developed from a cross or crosses and those that showed promise were trialed further, but not improved.

Luther Burbank the amazing plant breeder developed his "creations" not by wild chance, but by planting hundreds of plants and selected one or two plants from that, and planting their seeds by the hundreds, and selecting one or two plants, from that, and...........

I guess then what I don't understand Wayne is how you define limited choices? Like I said I won't speak to apples but in the case of most vegetables there are as many, if not more, open pollinated varieties available than there are hybrid varieties.

Or perhaps you are using the term open pollinated as it would apply to only fruit trees or in a different way than it is normally used in vegetable gardening?

There are numerous open pollinated varieties of corn (what some call 'Heirlooms') including some of the most popular ones - Boone County White, Golden Bantam, Hickory King, Silver King, etc. just to name a few. String beans varieties are all open pollinated, there are literally 1000's of OP tomato varieties, many OP carrots, leafy greens, peppers, etc. and they all breed true from seed.

I'm familiar with Burbank's work and while the vast majority of his work was done with fruits and flowers he is credited with stabilizing some vegetables as well - potatoes being one of the most noted - and those vegetables are stabilized open-pollinated varieties.

As for cloning, we do that with tomato plants all the time and the clones and the seeds from the clones breed totally true assuming no cross pollination.

Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.

Dave

If one has a philosophical reason to limit choices to OP's, that is good enough for me. It does limit one in many cases to older varieties that do not yield or taste well. Not too many folks like field corn for roasting ears. Even the old sweet corns like Stowell's Evergreen, Black Mexican, Country Gentleman, Golden Bantam, Howling Mob fall way short. I personally find OP's very limiting in terms of Broccoli, Cauliflower, and melons (Cucumis).
As the old folks would say "you pays your money and makes your choice". If we all made the same choices it would be a dull world.

Mega Dittos to Farmerdill's "OP's very limiting in terms of broccoli & cauliflower" remark.

Are there such things as "heirloom" F1 hybrids? Or are all seeds marketed as heirloom also OP?

And just a small aside on the taste issue, so many new cultivars are breed to be sweet, often to the point of lessening other flavor characteristics. I find myself heading for older varieities to avoid sweet carrots. Bleah.

Technically all seeds marketed as "heirloom" are open pollinated. Of course there are many that are backyard cross breeds that show variations in subsequent grow outs. It takes years and controlled conditions to develop and grow out "pure" seeds. When OP's were widely used commercially, reliable seed companies offered "certified" seeds. These were grown under rigorous restrictions so that purity could be garanteed. No one seems to be doing that anymore.

Thanks, that was what I thought, I just wasn't certain. And I always wondered what certified seed was, now I know!

To add to the profusion...Potatoes, sweetpotatoes, and many fruit trees are a clone. To come up with new varieties for the potatoes, you have to cross pollinate the blossoms and plant out the resultant seeds.

The terms "open pollenated" and "heirloom" are often used interchangeably. But the word "heirloom" doesn't have a specific meaning. To some people it signifies a vegetable which has been passed from generation to generation within a family. To others it simply means not a hybrid, or an old open pollenated variety.

The terms "hybrid" and "open pollenated" have very particular meanings. "Organic" opens a big can of worms.

Jim

Wow, I know I learned a lot more than I expected! Thanks everyone!

Ok, I have one last question that seems to fit this discussion going on here, especially since Wayne mentioned potatoes and sweet potatoes. I know those do have flowers and seeds, I actually kept one of the little fruits from my potato last summer. But garlic. How do we get the various types of garlic if it doesn't flower and we are always planting cloves that are presumably clones of the parent? Or is there more going on in those little scapes than just forming bulbils that are also clones?

Garlic like coffee bean plant takes on the flavors of the soil, Colombian coffee or Chinese red & white garlic.
Many garlic stayed in the same little town's soil for over 100 -500 years & is something different then the first clove plant many season ago.
It is better then gold.
This site talk about the different in garlic from around the world. In full discloser I bought from this company this past fall.

Here is a link that might be useful: garlic information

Garlic does seed. Like Irish potatoes, production of flower/seedheads is is "iffy". Dependent on variety and growing conditions. http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/vegetable/how-to-grow-garlic-from-seed.htm http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/901965

Here is a link that might be useful: True Seeds in garlic

Fascinating! So I wasn't crazy, those were a few flowers in that one scape I missed. Sometimes it is just so satisfying to get an answer to a question, thank you.