Plumhill, I agree with your basic premise, but I don't think a comparison of Cu vs. Sevin is a very good example to make your point. Sevin is more dangerous than Cu. I am certainly not a syntheti-phobe and many times grow weary of the public perception of organic vs. synthetic pesticides. Namely, the unfortunate public opinion that organic is always better than synthetic. Certainly the LD50 value is dependent upon the particular formulation of Copper and the particular formulation of Sevin. I have both Copper and Sevin in my lockers and their LD50 values are as follows: Kocide 3000 has an LD50 of 1847 mg/kg and Sevin 4F has an LD50 of 590 mg/kg. A little bit more Kocide is required for a full dilute spray vs. a full dilute of Sevin but even in full dilute, Sevin is more acutely toxic. There are other health considerations besides acute toxicity as well. This in my opinion is where Sevin loses the race. It is a cholinesterase inhibitor and listed as a carcinogen and developmental/reproductive toxin for mammals. Cholinesterase inhibition is the big deal here. I've read some applicators who routinely spray carbamates (i.e. Sevin) or organophosphates periodically have their cholinesterase levels checked because of the risk associated with these compounds. Again these risks are for applicators who are spraying these compounds all the time, not for a homeowner occasionally spraying their fruit trees, or applying a little Sevin dust to their vegetables. I'm not trying to make anyone paranoid about Sevin or copper. I'm not afraid to use either one, but from a health standpoint, I'd rather have repeated exposure of Cu vs. Sevin. From an environmental standpoint, I'd rather spray Sevin because, as you point out, it breaks down quickly. There are plenty examples of synthetics out there that are safer than Cu. Many of them have LD50 values of greater than 5000 mg/kg. Scott mentioned MFF. I see it has an ld50 of 4340 mg/kg. That means the concentrate of MFF is less acutely toxic than table salt. Quite safe.

"I did not waste my money on mail order junk..." "It may be fine out in the country, and that's all well and good for those of you who can have them ... you can certainly have more greenhouse space for less money than I can ... but in some settings, frankly, it just doesn't fly." Judgmental! Lets look at post from others that own the HFGH. ________________________________________________- CONCERNING HFGH PARTS: "gardenerwantabe (My Page) on Fri, Sep 22, 06 at 8:45 Yea the price is what suckered me into buying them. Now I get to throw away these worthless P.O.S. and buy some good ones." _______________________________________________ CONCERNING MODIFICATIONS TO HFGH: "by gardenerwantabe (My Page) on Fri, Sep 22, 06 at 18:58 Molly Did you read the posts on this forum about the modifications that is required to make the 10x12 HFGH survive in a thunderstorm. If you don't do these mods you will lose it." ___________________________________________________ LET"S LOOK A LITTLE CLOSER AT JUDGEMENTAL SHALL WE: "by gardenerwantabe (My Page) on Sun, Sep 24, 06 at 17:10 I hate to bust your bubble but a hoop house covered with the plastic is nowhere near as strong or durable as polycarbonate. The wind will tear it and the sun will destroy it in two or three years. Replacing the plastic film is a never ending job and you will soon spend more than what it would have cost to buy a GH with polycarbonate panels. All you got to do to convince yourself of this is look at the warranty on both types." ________________________________________________ AND: "by gardenerwantabe (My Page) on Mon, Sep 25, 06 at 13:44 Please share with us where you bought this miracle plastic. What is the name of the manufacture. I'm sure people would like to know where they can find a plastic that will last 4 times longer than anything else on the market." __________________________________________________ A beautiful thing that requires so much modification to keep it intact, and parts that are (to borrow a quote from another post) "POS" are not only in my opinion junk, the Wall Street Journal thinks so also. You will find the link to their story in a earlier post above. Everyone should read it. Yes, some would not find a hoophouse an aesthetic contribution, but many do. They are also featured on television home improvement shows in surburan settings in back yards of 200,000.00 homes, and look quite good there. LASTLY LETS LOOK CLOSER AT AN EARLIER POST OF MINE: "Best of luck to you. Bottom line is enjoying our greenhouses, isn't that right." This forum should be named "SUPPORT YOUR HFGH" Postive, comments welcome: Negetive, comments go elsewhere. WILL DO SO GLADLY

;Harold and Jim: Thank you for the nice comments. Carol: Yes thats the name of this Rambler.When ny daughter bought a place and moved, there was one of these roses growing on it,and I took a cutting and brought it home and planted it on the inside of that fence.I have to cutit way back every year as it takes over everything.I can't dig it up and move it as after it rooted there, half of it in on the inside and half on the outside of the fence. Renee,Thanks. I sure felt like running over him with that huge mower he had.He don't cut grass here no more. Florence, Thanks. Beth. yes, I am very ticked off every time I walk outside and a bare spot where that rose use to be. Jean

"Elfin sounds interesting. Would this be a candidate for a 3 gallon pot?" Probably, although I have yet to try that. Because Elfin is determinate, it wouldn't waste energy (and nutrients) in endless foliage. The leaves are actually somewhat open, compared to most tomatoes I've grown... it seems to use the large clusters of green fruit as leaves? A good tomato for pot culture would be a currant tomato... the pot limits its otherwise rampant growth. Most of the currant tomatoes I tried had issues; the red ones cracked, the yellow ones dropped excessively when ripe. A yellow variety from Sample Seeds (Solanum spontaneum) does neither. Tiny 1/3-1/2" yellow fruit in numerous trusses of 10 or so. Seeds so tiny you won't know they are there. The ripe tomatoes keep for a very long time (at least several weeks) if picked with the stem attached; some will even dry. Not too sweet eaten out of hand, but pleasant, and good in salads. You'll get plenty out of one pot. Be warned, though - DON'T try growing that currant tomato in the ground, unless you want a 6-8' heavily branched monster, with literally thousands of tomatoes!!! I gave a friend one plant, which she planted next to her fence... it grew to be 3' wide, and climbed up & over the 6' fence into the neighbor's yard. She eventually got tired of picking them all.