Friends of ours always include a cash gift along with birthday, wedding, baby and engagement showers. It's supposed to help the bride with surprise unplanned expenses.

The closest I've come was when DH lost an older brother. A girlfriend DH had in high school called, got me, and asked if there was a fund for his children she could help with. I bit back my 'you are living in the past' and didn't utter it - but did remind her - gently - all of his children were married with children of their own. They were not still the little kids she remembered who needed new jackets or tennis shoes (with 10 kids in the family there was not always enough to go around)

The two most recent funerals I have firsthand knowledge of were priced at $13K out of pocket (a veteran in KY, so some costs and the plot/headstone were paid for by the VA) and $18K out of pocket (a 27yo in NC).

I would have been happy to contribute $100 toward funeral costs versus the dish garden I sent if I knew it was preferred.

I think funeral costs are out of reach for many who are just barely making it. Here, gfms are fairly common, as are bbq meals sold by family/friends by the plate to raise $ for expenses.

I'm sure that there may be money grabs in some cases, but some of these requests are legit struggles.

The grieving family did not directly ask, but someone speaking on their behalf?

You think this family is always seeking money? Do you know them well?

I do not know whether or not this is a ”thing.”

After having been on the sudden unexpected death and zero money side of things a few times, I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well as money. I would check my judgement.

But maybe you know something of their demeanor and traits.

It is unfortunate that people go into debt or spend that kind of $ for funerals. It's so unecessary, but unfortunately, we are a death denying culture so few (younger people at least) have made plans for their funerals and researched and chosen more affordable options. When the death is very unexpected, no one is in any emotional state to find alternatives. But a private burial (with no frills) or cremation with a memorial service or gathering doesn't cost much. Funeral non profits are available that prevent predatory funeral industry practices (like upselling caskets and unnecessary frills). No one needs to spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.

A cremation I had lst of last month cost over 3000 That was for pick up, cremation death certificates , urn and all the paperwork. No funeral. I noice a few requests for donations to themselves and just think they need the money for the funeral. I always put money in a card for that purpose unless they request it to a charity. Some years back if we had prepaid for cremation the cost would have been in the 1000's.

Cremation can cost far less through a non-profit such as the Neptune Society. Don't confused 'cremation' with the extra services.

https://signatureheadstones.com/blogs/news/what-happens-you-cant-afford-funeral?srsltid=AfmBOooUI-oXRqm7LFoEj6Q8sUCKMtBH_9kDvR2UEWM9JrMZU5FZA8UM

Government & State Assistance Programs

If financial limitations make paying for a funeral impossible, the first place to check is government assistance. Social Security offers a small but useful death benefit - $255 to help a surviving spouse or child cover part of the funeral costs. Yes, it’s not a solution on its own, but it can contribute to a broader plan for covering expenses.

Medicaid and state welfare programs can also step in for those who qualify. Certain states provide burial assistance, sometimes in the form of direct financial help or by covering the cost of cremation or a basic burial. The challenge is that these programs aren’t always well-advertised, meaning many families don’t even know they exist. Contacting local social services or a funeral home experienced in assisting low-income families can help uncover available resources.

For veterans, the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) offers burial benefits that can significantly ease the financial strain. If the deceased was a veteran, their family may be entitled to a burial allowance, a free gravesite in a national cemetery, or even reimbursement for certain funeral expenses. The VA also provides headstones, markers, or medallions at no cost.

Non-Profit & Religious Organizations Offering Aid

Many non-profit organizations exist solely to help families facing financial struggles with funeral costs. These groups may cover cremation costs, provide grants, or negotiate discounted services with funeral homes. It takes some research to find the right fit, but organizations like the Funeral Consumers Alliance and local assistance groups are good places to start.

Religious institutions have long played a role in easing funeral expenses for their members. Some churches, mosques, synagogues, and temples offer free or low-cost funeral services, often including the use of a venue for a memorial service.

A few years ago, my cousin's daughter-in-law was killed in a car accident, leaving her husband with three middle school/high school aged kids. There was a GoFundMe set up for the family, not to pay funeral bills, but, going forward, he was going to have to send them to college on a single dad salary. I had no problem contributing to that.

To be clear, this was not a GoFundMe account -- the ask for donations was right there in the death notice. Along with a plexiglass collection box near the guest book. Neither is it the "local custom" around these parts -- or at least hasn't been in the past.

"Sending or giving money to the family is one thing, but requesting it is entirely different."
Bingo.

"The grieving family did not directly ask, but someone speaking on their behalf?"
It was in the obituary, so I presume it was the family or at least approved by the family.

"You think this family is always seeking money? Do you know them well?"
They are an estranged branch of my own family. And no, I didn't ask any of them about it while at the funeral, that would have been crass -- there is really not any sort of relationship there for me to feel comfortable about asking.

I don't know what the actual situation is. The funeral is over and done with, I'm just curious about this more than anything else. So much has changed, especially since the pandemic -- it seems anything goes nowadays and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this is yet another thing I'm out of the loop on...

Very common in my area. At the end of the obit it will state, "contributions may be made to the funeral home to help defray expenses"

Common here too in my part of rural America. There are many citizens here who belong to a lower socio-economic group.

The phrasing that schoolhouse mentioned is acceptable here.

i only experienced this once. The family put out the request suggesting that the grandfather who died would have wanted contributions to go toward his grand kids college fund.

I knew one of the daughters. Let’s just say she often found ways of bucking the system or getting one over. Some of which could have come from not really being able to afford living in our upscale town.

In these cases you can of course either contribute or ignore.

I've never ever heard of such a thing. I wouldn't react positively if I encountered it.

I can’t decide what I think about a situation where the family of deceased requests money in lieu of flowers. I can’t imagine attending a funeral of someone I didn’t know quite a bit about or have some solid connection to either the deceased or one of the deceased’s immediate family members. In those cases, a request for money payable to the family would only surprise me if I knew they didn’t need it to pay burial costs or replace lost income. If that weren’t the case I wouldn’t honor the request and I likely wouldn’t be buying any flowers either.

In my family, we always put some money in the card. Funerals are expensive. No one asks for it, it is just what we have always done.

For me, including money in a sympathy card ’feels’ different than a request from family or friends of family for money in lieu of flowers. Asking for any donations people might want to make to go to specific charity also feels different. When my father died, many donations were made in his name to the local animal shelter. My dad & his small dog companion were a well known pair in their small town. It was also well known that his dog came to him via that local animal shelter and my dad had been a volunteer dog walker there.

When my father died, it was announced in the church bulletin and we offered that donations could be made to the church in his name. We didn’t send out any formal announcement beyond that, so anyone outside the church wouldn’t have known we set up the fund. Out of state friends made a donation in his name that I found a bit odd: to their retirement community!

foas - I find that kind of donation odd too. You’d think they’d have asked if they couldn’t think of an organization that aligned with your father’s interests outside his church.

”Church” wasn’t a sticking point as they’re the same denomination. They wouldn’t have known about the fund but yeah, as long time friends you’d think they’d come up with something that meant something to him even if they didn’t want to ask. It’s all good, I’m sure it was given from the heart and we got a chuckle out of it.

Requests for donations to a decedent’s or family’s favorite charity are common, but I find them odd too. If I wasn’t interested in supporting a particular cause while the person was alive, why would their death change that? Or why would the family survivors think that the death gave them survivors leverage (guilt leverage?) to solicit money for their favorite causes? I ignore such requests.

I had a different experience when a friend died a few years ago. We had served together on the Board of a nonprofit we both strongly supported and donated to regularly. Although no mention of "recommended" donations was made in the obit/funeral announcement, I chose to make a generous contribution in his honor to the organization’s endowment fund. I felt that that reflected and honored our shared commitment.

My thought about the practice of offering a suggestion of donation to a specific charity / organization in lieu of floral arrangements is that it’s different than a general request for donations. If the donation is made in honor of the deceased, it makes sense the donation goes to a cause they support, not one of my favorite causes. Of course, their favorite cause(s) would have to be one that I could also support.

Yes, KW PNW Z8, it definitely is. It's also the only donation request on the part of a bereaved family that I'd willingly fulfill. The dead are so helpless. They no longer can do what they loved to do, so the living can do it for them. .

As for including unsolicited money in condolence letters, barring closely knit rural or other communities, where it's a custom, don't people ever get offended or hurt?

I'd never be able to take such money. I'd give it back. Flowers are best. I also don't understand the "in lieu of flowers". Why not flowers AND donation to a cause dear to the deceased? One so wants to bring flowers to the dead.

”In lieu of flowers…”

I bought my mother a small bouquet for her 96th birthday the other day. I know she’ll look at it every day, change water, give fresh cuts, remove flowers as they wilt, right up until she’s left with one very short-stemmed flower in a mini vase on her kitchen window stool. It brings her joy.

She would find no joy sitting in a house full of funeral flowers, especially if she had any idea what they cost nowadays. She’s very pragmatic and doesn’t like waste. She’s the wife who WANTED a new vacuum for Christmas, not jewelry.

When her time comes, we’ll think of a charity to support. I know that people feel like they want to do ”something”, and creating a tiny legacy in her name would be a lot more meaningful to her, and us, than receiving short-lived flower arrangements. Or another casserole for that matter.

I’m not suggesting there’s right or wrong here. But the spirit of giving is to do something that the recipient would most appreciate, so I think it’s best to honor their wishes.

I’ve never felt under any ”obligation” to give anything, flowers or otherwise, and as long as it’s presented as a suggestion not an obligation, I’d be open to anything that’s not morally objectionable to me.

Edit: I’m just realizing we should ask for my mom’s input on choosing a charity rather than leave it to us to decide. Good conversation for my next visit tomorrow.

Well said foas & wintercat - I heartily agree with both of you. For me, the acts of presenting the bereaved with flowers or making a donation to a cause the deceased supported is something I do for the living people I care about and who also cared about the person who has just died. Barring any religious reasons for funerals, and maybe even including those reasons, funerals and memorial services are done for the benefit of the grieving people the deceased has left behind and not for the person who just died. In my personal end of life plans, I have no wish for a funeral or a memorial. What I do hope for - whether it’s me or my husband who departs first - is that the one of us left behind is surrounded by anyone who cares for us to help us each through what I think would be hard months of adjusting to life alone.

Giving money at a funeral was very common when I was growing up as people had no life insurance, no money for the expense and it was a way of helping out. A decade back, a young gal died by suicide, her family was flat broke and so donations were given to help cover the expense. It doesn't bother me at all if I know the circumstances and they are dire. If it was a funeral for a wealthy family, it would bother me a lot.

We don't see so many obituaries now, since the demise of a lot of newspapers that would have published them. But I never took offense and the "in lieu of flowers" statement that was often added. Sending flowers is a common (or used to be) response to a death, either to their family at home or to the funeral home to be used for the service and then moved to the graveside. I see a lot more memorial services or celebrations of life that don't include any trip to a cemetery and are often held in places other than a funeral home or church. But the PNW is not a very "churchy" area of the country, so maybe it's different other places.

Since flowers are a considerable expense, it does seem a waste to receive a large number of bouquets or even living plants that must be dealt with. In lieu of flowers only applies to those who would have been moved to send them in the first place. It's not asking for people to feel obligated to donate to a charity.

Most go-fund-me requests put me off, but sometimes there are circumstances that make having a place to help the family makes sense and I am happy to contribute.

I think most of us middle class slobs know few people personally who are truly "wealthy".

Define ”middle class slob.” I’d be shocked if your net worth doesn’t put you in the top 1%, but even if you’re just a 2 percenter I think that would put you objectively well above middle class. Perhaps you’re confusing ”wealthy” with ”uber wealthy”?

You repeatedly call my thinking black and white when we’re discussing generally subjective things. It’s weird. ”Wealthy” is subjective. So is middle class, but in this case it’s pretty clear what it is ”not.”

I don’t care how much money you have or what percentile you’re in, but given your long history of talking up your successful career consulting household name silicon valley companies, being a partner in the consulting firm, traveling the world, owning two houses in coastal ca towns, and much much more, I assure you that everyone here knows you’re not a ”middle class slob.” If you want to accuse me of making a black or white statement, here’s your opportunity.

There are so many families today struggling to survive while they are alive and are probably not giving a lot of thought to what happens when they die.

I spoke with a friend last night who was in tears. Retired, living on SS, had $72.00 left in her checking account after paying her rent, renters insurance, car insurance, phone and two subscriptions ($7.00 for TV streaming service and $5.00 for a music streaming service). She said she doesn't know what to do, how to live, every month is a struggle. Do you think she has money saved to pay for her funeral?

I know several people who passed away as divorcees. Their kids were still young, not really well established and certainly not able to pay for a funeral. The parents were concentrating on surviving and helping their kids. They didn't put money aside for a funeral and suddenly the kids are trying to figure out how they can pay for a funeral.

One of the guys I work with had a family member die while working in another country. He left a wife and 3 kids and they didn't have enough money to even bring his body home to be buried. He asked us to contribute to the go fund me to bring his cousins body home so his family could have a funeral.

We don't always know how much someone else is struggling. Most people try to hide that they don't have enough income to make ends meet. I know some people are money grubbing a holes, but I think it is more likely that a family asking for donations may be struggling to pay for the funeral or may need the money to help pay off left over medical bills or other debt left behind.

That’s a compassionate, well written post, @Jennifer Hogan. As I said earlier in this thread, there are many people in my rural area who can’t afford a funeral. Not all citizens live in wealthy (whatever you consider wealthy to mean) or even adequate financial circumstances.

Maybe you have some practical solutions for poor people who have no money, whise family has no money, who live in places with no employment opportunities, who have no car, where there is no public transportation, who are caring for elderly relatives or small children, who may be living in abusive relationships where they are threatened with harm if they try to leave? Do tell where they get the money for rent and deposits in a new to them more expensive area of the country? Do they walk 500 miles and live in a tent that they probably don’t have access to? Do they live on bark and leaves on the way? Please DO solve these issues for poor people who don’t have the bootstraps you imply will change the circumstaces into which so many are born? The lack of understanding and empathy is astounding, tho not surprising.

Ye olde bootstraps.

What are YOUR practical solutions for the situations I described. I can add a gazillion more if you need them. You wanted to know why people are where they are and imply they can just up and improve their lives. Problem solved. Right? HOW would someone do that with the parameters laid out? Or add in poor education and no job training in many areas of the country. The good schools are where the money already is. How does someone get there? Do tell.

"Why do people remain in areas and in circumstances where they (and often their families) remain economically disadvantaged? And not act to improve their economic well-being?"

What ACT is it that they take?

A few comments to elmer. It seems you were born privileged and have had minimal contact with those unlike you. I’ll try to explain a bit about Poor People.

Olychick gave an excellent list of problems faced by the less fortunate. I’ll add that some people stay poor because that’s all they know. It’s what their ancestors did, so it’s good enough for them.

DH attended the funeral of a classmate yesterday. She was alcoholic and penniless, from a poor uneducated family and probably didn’t work more than a year or two in her life. She was pregnant at 15 and dropped out of high school, lived on the streets as an adult and slept in vacant houses she broke into. Caught in a hopeless cycle of poverty.

DH and I also came from poor uneducated families. I went to 13 different schools before I graduated from high school because my dad couldn’t hold a job. We had no money but we were better off than our cousins who were removed from their homes by DFS because their parents couldn’t feed them. I don’t share this for sympathy, it’s just to show how poor we were.

DH and I were high school sweethearts and leaned on one another to pull ourselves out of poverty. We did not move from the area, but we earned college degrees and held professional jobs all our working lives. We are retired now and financially comfortable.

What’s the difference between us and the classmate that was laid to rest yesterday? A strong desire to not be poor anymore, I guess, and taking action to achieve that goal. Apparently she didn’t have that desire. Nor any luck, either. The cards were stacked against her from Day One.

edited to add: I forgot to wrap this around to this post‘s original question. I didn’t ask DH if he gave a donation to help pay for the funeral. Well, I know the answer anyway. If they asked, he gave. She was not a bad person, just poor and made poor choices. We can afford to chip in to help bury her.

Here goes, Elmer. I cut the final paragraph in order to post it right at the beginning:

"In summary, for many, remaining in a disadvantaged area is not a choice, but a 'rational, yet desperate, survival strategy' in the face of structural obstacles that make escaping poverty incredibly difficult. "

And this is the full reply from AI. I ran your questions verbatim on google and AI spouted forth the following. I don't particularly like AI, but sometimes it comes in useful.

"People often remain in economically disadvantaged circumstances not due to a lack of desire to improve their lives, but because of a complex web of structural, financial, and psychological barriers that make mobility extremely difficult. These situations are often described as "poverty traps," where the lack of initial resources prevents the accumulation of assets necessary to escape poverty. Here are the primary reasons people remain in these situations:1. Structural and Financial Barriers (The "Poverty Trap")

• High Cost of Moving: Relocating to a better area requires significant cash for deposits, moving costs, and temporary housing, which poor households lack.
• Cost of Living Differences: Areas with higher job opportunities often have prohibitively higher costs of living (housing, food, transportation), making it risky for low-income individuals to move there.
• "Poverty Premium": Low-income households often pay more for essential goods and services (household fuel, insurance, food), reducing their ability to save.
• Lack of Access to Quality Education and Training: Without affordable access to education or training programs, people cannot acquire the skills necessary for higher-paying jobs.
• Weak Social Safety Nets: In some regions, a lack of government support, such as affordable housing or childcare, makes it nearly impossible to save enough to change circumstances.

2. Social and Support Networks

• Mutual Support Systems: People often rely on local networks—family, neighbors, and friends—for survival, such as free childcare, shared housing, or support during emergencies. Moving away means losing this essential, free support network.
• Proximity to Work: Even low-paying jobs are often located in areas with high housing costs. Families may stay in poor areas to remain close to their place of work, as they cannot afford the transportation costs from cheaper, more remote areas.

3. Psychological and Environmental Factors

• Survival Strategy (Scarcity Mindset): When living in poverty, survival becomes a full-time job. The cognitive load of constant financial stress causes a "scarcity mindset," which focuses attention on immediate, short-term needs rather than long-term planning.
• Fear of Loss and Risk Aversion: When you have very little, taking a risk—such as changing jobs or moving—can lead to total devastation.
• Mental Health and Stress: Poverty is a significant driver of chronic stress, anxiety, and depression, which can make it harder for individuals to maintain employment or seek new opportunities.

4. Occupational and Economic Factors

• Lack of Job Opportunities: In many depressed areas, there are simply no high-paying jobs available. Furthermore, "good" jobs are often filled through networks, which may be limited in impoverished communities.
• Underemployment and Insecure Work: Many individuals work in low-wage, insecure service-sector jobs that do not pay enough to cover basic needs, leaving no surplus income for investment in their future."

I

I haven't followed this thread to find out how it got here, but I read a news article a few years ago about government-sponsored programs to retrain West Virginia coal miners. The program didn't get much participation. Asked why they didn't move to where the jobs were, they said "This is home." So it's that simple for some.

There is always a balancing act.

You have to compare your income potential in various locations against the cost of living for that area.

It may be that someone living in Appalachia may not have any valuable skills, may not have a high school diploma, may not be able to read and write. Drop them in San Francisco and let them try to find a job that will pay enough for them to pay rent.

The story is quite different for an electrical engineer, but they may still find that their quality of life is better in Atlanta than in San Francisco.

You also need to know what makes you happy. It may be that being around family is more important than earning exceptional wages. Most people in the US stay within 20 miles of where they graduated from high school. Some because they had no opportunity to go elsewhere, but many choose to stay close to home and family or may move when they are young and starting their career and move back when they have kids and find that the big city life wasn't as important as having mom and dad be part of their kid's lives. Maybe the hustle and bustle and going out on the town gives way to staying home and watching Disney movies.

My parents had 6 kids. The largest employer in my home town was Bethlehem Steel. When they closed the foundry in 1986 it really hurt our economy. All 6 kids went to college and moved away after college to chase more lucrative earning possibilities. All 6 moved back to our home town. Most moved back when they were having kids. They wanted their kids to grow up around family.

My sister earned quite a bit more living in NJ and working in NYC, but she could only afford a small home. She and her husband got jobs locally but could afford a much larger and nicer home here even with lower paying jobs.

Most of us, and perhaps nearly all of us, are descendants of immigrants who came to the United States in the hope of building better lives. Few were wealthy or highly educated people migrating on a whim; most were poor, fleeing hardship, poverty, and limited opportunities in their homelands. They came seeking something better in America, a hope often described as the “American Dream.”

They crossed continents, or oceans, or continents AND oceans to get here. Most lived in poverty for many, many years while continuing to work hard and improve their own lives and those of their families. They were willing to leave behind friends and family, often knowing they'd never see them again, because of wanting more.

If someone chooses to not move 50 or 100 or a few hundred miles for better economic opportunities because of an overwhelming "This is home" attitude, then they've made their choice. As littlebug and eileen mention specifically and wintercat indirectly, they've made poor choices and will live their lives in unfortunate and disadvantaged circumstances compared to what might have been. I don't feel sorry or responsible for people like that.

People who are unfortunate victims of other people or of circumstances beyond their control, rather than bad choices, who will use available opportunities and assistance to try to better themselves, different story.

Chiming in with an update: I got the card in the mail today - whatever you call the card the family sends to people who signed the visitors book. What struck me as odd...and kinda creepy...is the family used the address label OF THE DECEASED. Yes, you read that right. The deceased's name and address. Who does that?! (well, obviously these people do, that's who...).

Not only that, it was a one-sentence thank you for the gift. Uh, I didn't give a gift....unless you count the flowers, which they didn't want (they were bought and sent before the full obit came out with the part about the donations).

This whole thing is just odd to me.

I have a drawer full of return labels in my name from various charities that I have never contributed for. My family would probably use them because they are there. Not creepy.

I did not imply anything. I quoted verbatim a software's reply to your questions, presented verbatim.

What do I think? I think that anyone who fails to Elmerize themselves out of their economic misery deserve their wretched fate.

However, I do draw comfort from Elmer's recognition of a third category of people prevented from Elmerization due to circumstanced beyond their control. Thank you Elmer.

I think when more people regularly attended and belonged to a church or other religion based community people in the community attended the funerals of other members and learned funeral etiquette.

I have helped two of the families of friends help plan their parents funerals. The kids responsible for planning the funeral hadn't attended more than one or two funerals in their lives. They didn't pay a lot of attention to the ones they had attended and really didn't know what to do. The funeral home provides general guidelines, but who teaches them how to write an obituary.

When my sister passed away her son wrote an obituary that read like a resume. He didn't say that she was a loving mother and wife, just a list of who survived her. Nothing about her dedication to the children of this community, just when and where she attended medical school and that she practiced pediatric medicine. Thankfully he sent it to my other sister and I to proof read before publication.

He also sent out a note the morning of her funeral telling everyone in the family that since the weather was bad he and his brother would go to the cemetery after the funeral for the burial and the rest of us could go straight to the memorial luncheon. He was clueless that the burial is part of the process and that we would want to go to the cemetery. The last funeral he and his brother had attended was his grandmother's funeral when he was 8 years old and his brother was 10.

Younger people today rarely write a thank you note for anything. How would they know what is proper?

"Younger people today rarely write a thank you note for anything. How would they know what is proper?"

I'd chalk it up to that if these people were younger, but they're not.

I like to assume good intentions. I don't know why anyone would write a thank you note with the intention of offending the recipient. Were they bereft with grief and just not thinking or overcome with depression?

"Were they bereft with grief and just not thinking or overcome with depression?"

Who knows. I don't think the intent was to offend, but IMO the effort was half-a*sed. But I suppose at least they acknowledged people's presence at the funeral, so there's that.

Times change and with change there are almost always both positive and negative consequences.

I remember when I was a kid. My parents had 6 kids, our neighbor had 7 kids. We each had 2 acres of land. Between the two houses we had a woods to play in, a swimming pool, a culdesac with a basket ball hoop and enough space to play kickball or ride our bikes. There was a field behind our houses and across the field was a playground with tennis courts and Swings, Slides, monkey bars, Seesaws . . . ) In the summertime all the kids from the neighborhood gravitated to our back yards. We didn't go inside except to use the restroom except to eat lunch or dinner. Rainy days were torture. Now kids stay inside or play organized sports.

Different, but who is to say which is better?

Organized religion is no exception. There was a community that you could rely on, but it also led to bias and less acceptance of diversity. I don't think there is one perfect right answer for everyone.

I was at a friend’s funeral yesterday with my sister, and asked her if she knew what charity my mom might like to have supported in her memory. She named the charity immediately, and it made perfect sense. No need to ask mom.

This conversation might make me put a little more thought into exactly how we’ll word the suggestion, if we do it. But a donation suggestion has become so commonplace - and well-intentioned - that I wouldn’t care too much if someone decides to feel offended by it.

foas - your statement “This conversation might make me put a little more thought into exactly how…” is a great closing for all the points that have been brought up in this thread. Even though some of the posts are too argumentative in their presentations, all of them do make one stop and think about the main topic and all the side topics that were brought up, and make most of us - an assumption here - ask ourselves what we would do in the described situations. That’s a good thing & why I like to read TKT forum.