@mtnrdredux_gw, no the rules are not the same for pastels and white. Pastels are good at Easter and thereafter. Off whites (winter white) are good from Christmas forward. White whites, from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

I am going with the Kswl rule. I have a white dress I've been itching to wear. I think I will pull it out this week.

Ks, I have never in my life worn white jeans!

Didn't everyone have white jeans and black jeans in the 1980s? And white painter pants in the 1970s?

Not me. I was wearing green chinos in the early 80s…but I have always been ”bottom heavy” so avoid light colors in pants.

I remember having denim painters pants from Old Navy, in the 90s I think! Not a flattering look but I remember they were very comfortable.

Sue, firstly that’s a myth, and secondly, you are not bottom heavy!

Do people really go by these ”rules” ?

Who came up with them? 🙄

My understanding is that the custom harkens to a time when only the idle rich could wear white, which they did so when they summered (as a verb). Light colors provide light reflection and hence cooling. White was not a practical choice for working class who got dirty and had less resources to clean or replace clothing. At the end of the summer as the well to do returned to the city, they chose dark colors for that (dirtier and dustier) environment and the cooler temps.

This would probably make more sense to those in Northern climates. It probably caught on in NYC and spread from there.

It probably caught on in NYC and spread from there.

Like everything else does 😁

I remember white painter pants that were purchased at Sherwin Williams. Hospital scrubs were a popular fashion item for a while, too.

Ican only wear white pants if the fabric is heavy and my top covers my posterior, thanks to cellulite. Ugh.

I don't think I've ever gone a summer without at least one pair of white pants in my repertoire, I consider them a staple. True, darker colors are "flattering" (to use an outdated term) but if I only went by what was the most flattering I would wear my DVF black off-the-shoulder jumpsuit to any and all occasions big and small. I guess maybe I prefer to choose an outfit based on what I like and what fits the occasion and season, and then within that target find something I feel I look best in.

As for cellulite and white pants, I do find that either a heavy material or a flowy fit look better on most wearers.

My mother’s summer ”uniform” was white pants and a camp shirt. On the golf course in the summer, it was white shorts and a golf shirt. I thought she always looked pretty snazzy.

My white pants wardrobe is white dressy pants; white linen pants that go to the cleaners; white linen pants that get washed and worn rumpled; and 3 pairs of white jeans. One day I looked around the room at the cookbook club luncheon and all 8 of us were wearing white pants of some sort!

”flattering” is outdated?

Well, this could get into a very long discussion, but in some circles there is a backlash against the word "flattering" in sartorial matters. The argument is that flattering is usually (before anyone says it, okay, not 100% of the time but really...) used to mean an article of clothing that makes the wearer or a part of the wearer look smaller. Which implies that looking smaller is unambiguously preferable, so much so that it should be the sole measure of clothing. Among some feminists and some in the body positivity movement, "flattering" is now a deemed a backward term. People note, for example, that you never hear someone say that an outfit looked flattering on say, a supermodel or a comely celebrity. It is only applied to people who are "flawed."

If you know any college-age women, ask them what they think of the term.

I think it is thought provoking and they make some good points. My generation was very much raised with a list of what you literally could and could not wear based on your body type. I can appreciate people being able to wear whatever they please.

OTOH, one's choice of clothing is at least partially based on wanting to look one's best. If you personally dislike some feature I don't see why it is not okay to make choices that reflect that.

Gee, and all this time I thought it just meant made you look your best, whatever that might be.

Merriam-Webster

2: helping to enhance attractiveness

a necktie in a flattering color… dictating the most flattering camera angles.

I’ll probably continue to use it.

I think a lot of the time ”flattering” is used as synonymous with ”shows off your figure to its best advantage.” Generally speaking I think most people would still like to highlight what they consider their best features and minimize what they consider flaws.

Obviously, if people want to wear something that emphasizes a feature of their own body they like they should feel free to do so, regardless of what anybody thinks. Those are usually not the people asking for advice on what to wear, though. 🤔

At the doctor yesterday I rode in the elevator with two women, one about my age and one in her early 50’s if I had to guess. Both were pleasant; we gave our floor numbers to the one nearest the keypad and exchanged pleasantries about the weather. The woman my age had very long gray hair parted in the middle. She was wearing a denim midi skirt with a printed blouse (not tucked in, it stopped about halfway down her hips) and a dark beige long cardigan with sort of floppy ends and no buttons. (I know there’s a name for it but I can’t bring it to mind.) She was wearing white socks and gray crocs, the kind with the strap in back. She looked like she closed her eyes and reached into a box and put on whatever she pulled out. It was possibly the worst outfit she could have worn for the body type. The other woman wore all black athleisure— socks, sneakers, leggings, top, jacket and baseball hat. It all fit but the color did not do anything whatsoever for her. Her hair was bundled up into the cap so I have no idea what color it was. Her jacket had a dusty appearance that some black garments acquire. Other than that there was nothing notable, nothing good and nothing bad. She was 100% innocuous— I actually thought “cat burglar” when I first saw her. Both women were nice, pleasant and obviously living their lives as they wished and wearing clothes that could not have been less ”flattering” to their appearance. And clearly neither cared one iota about how they appeared to others. I was kind of in awe.

Interesting. We are more casual in the PNW than in some other parts of the country and tend to be less judgemental about how others look or dress, I think. With that note, I am in awe (or something) of people who spend what I think is an inordinate amount of tiime/money and energy worrying about their appearance and what others think of it. Maybe awe isn't the right word...shock is probably a better word.

Interesting that you claim you aren’t judgmental, but the above comments are judgmental about other women’s fashion and grooming choices. How is using words like an inordinate amount and shock not judging them?

Apparently I’m in a different circle because i had no clue flatter was a bad thing. Nor do I think of it as making a body part look smaller. Of course i do think there are styles that look best on our body types, but i think of flattering as much more. For example, a flattering hair style, a color that flatters someone, etc. YMMV

Interesting- I had never heard that use of the word flatter had "baggage" so to speak. I'm wondering if this might be something generational. Maybe it will filter along to the rest of us, like the ol' white pants before Memorial Day.

I definitely grew up with the white pants not before Memorial Day and not after Labor Day.

I also vaguely remember patent leather was not until Spring I can remember going for new shoes in the Spring, and they would usually be patent leather.

@hhireno I meant (and clarified my post) judgements about appearance and worrying about how we appear to others, or fashion 'rules', etc.

The word flattering is, to some extent, sexist, because traditional men's clothes don't have to be what is considered "flattering" to their shape, in other words they don't make men's dress shirts to camouflage love handles or big bellies, or suit pants to compensate for a flat saggy, non existent butt. Well they do, but those kinds of clothes are looked at askance, by many people. Men's clothes just need to fit well enough not to gap at the buttons, fly or pockets-- too much; or at the other end, not fall down.

people who spend what I think is an inordinate amount of tiime/money and energy worrying about their appearance and what others think of it. Maybe awe isn't the right word...shock is

Well, still judgmental. You don't think it's important, but there is a lot of judging in there about people who apparently do. Like you are the "more evolved" person here, who is above such frivolities.

The problem, in my opinion, is not that you are judgmental, because everybody is, about something. I am judging you right now, quite obviously. The problem is that apparently you don't think you are, or you just won't admit it.

“Judgmental” has an immediate negative connotation. I was not judging those women as in determining their intrinsic worth by way of their clothing. They were both nice, both very pleasant and had good manners and the ability to interact positively with complete strangers. As ”people” I’d say my impression of them — my judgment, if you prefer— was a 10 out of 10. That their clothing demonstrated a complete lack of interest in appearance did not impact that positive impression at all. So I guess I am asking if pure observation is inherently judgmental, and if sharing an observation about strangers who will never hear it or be affected in any way by it is rude. And if it is rude, to whom is it rude?

Olychick, we all have differing opinions about such things but I am curious. For some reason I think I read that you were a retired hairdresser, and if so you surely have looked at a person and thought their hair would look better…be more flattering…..in a different style. And surely the act of having one’s hair cut and colored and styled is not just self serving, it is a conscious effort to make oneself as attractive or one’s hair as pleasing as possible. So where is the difference between grooming one’s hair and grooming the rest of their appearance with equal thought and vigor?

Forgive me if I’ve gotten it wrong, as my idea of your profession came from a post or thread many years ago and obviously I could have gotten it dead wrong. FWIW, I revere hair stylists with the kind of hero worship others feel for doctors and social workers— probably because mine makes me feel better about my hair—and by extension, myself — than anyone in either of those professions are likely to!

Well tone deaf I may be and I do spend an inordinate amount of time shopping but sometimes when I find something great it really Does make me happy… like this Spartina golf skirt. I adore it and could happily wear it every day! I wore it to golf today:

It’s a little too pulled down in this photo. After I saw the picture I adjusted the look by pulling it up about an inch. So comfortable, with zippered pockets that held three balls, a handful of tees and my phone.

I have a feeling that you dress well when you don't even leave the house. You don't seem to be doing it to impress anybody, pretend you are someone you are not, or going into debt to have nice clothes.

My father got up every morning, shaved, made his bed, put on a collared shirt, a nice pair of pants, usually a cashmere sweater, and polished shoes at 90, to go downstairs and read a book and watch TV--and possibly not leave the house. He might not see anyone but the woman across the street who checked in with him to make sure he was okay, not even her if she just phoned. He had nice clothes, took care of them, could pay to have them ironed, and did so. The only time in my entire life I saw him unshaven for more than 24 hours is when he was 93 and was in the hospital with pneumonia.

I personally don't seen anything pretentious, phony or frivolous about it if it is just part of your routine. There's really only something negative about it if it is pretense, only meant for other people like a lot of the influencer type stuff on the internet these days.

@salonva, I grew up with the rule about no patent leather before Easter.

@Kswl Cute skirt! I love the pleated ruffle detail.

@palimpsest, Wow. I admire your dad’s holding to his standards even as his age advanced.

DH was always well dressed. He was in the middle of a heart attack (we didn’t know at the time what it was). I was trying to get him dressed to go to the hospital. He rejected the first golf shirt I brought out!

Thank you Pal; and you are correct, I get dressed intentionally every day. Since I retired in 2018 I have made a concerted effort to dress nicely (and appropriately) every day, even if I am staying home doing chores and walking the dogs. It keeps me on track and, I don’t know, sort of accountable. It’s also true that I have a lot of activities and responsibilities outside the home and would like to present a convincing look of (variously) reliability, competence and fun. 😎 I would probably have had more in common with your dad than most people my age. I also just really like clothes!

@Kswl you are correct - I did start life as a hairdresser and you are also correct that I do so often notice people's hair and think they could do so much better with style or color, length, etc. I think the same thing driving around, noticing people's yards, gardens, house colors, etc. So I guess the word that got me in trouble here is 'judge'. Is everything we notice a judgement, either positive or negative? I suppose, in which case I admit to being judgmental, as we all are. I didn't mean to criticize how you choose to put yourself together, but did find it curious that a stranger's attire caught so much of your attention that you would post about it.

I was making more of a general comment that I think might be somewhat cultural/regional from what I see on these threads, about appearance and 'appropriate' attire. There is much more concern than I've ever been exposed to (and I've been immersed in different groups of women my whole life, but have never lived outside of the PNW) about attire. So it makes me think that in other parts of the country it holds more weight than I am used to. I meant that as an observation and didn't mean it to come off as a negative judgement, but apparently it did. So I am sorry for that.

I notice the difference a lot on questions of proper wedding attire based on wording on invitations. I honestly don't recall ever getting an invitation that stated attire requirements. Maybe one, many years ago to a very exclusive club in Seattle where there was requirement, but mostly for men with a jacket and tie required to set foot into the club. But otherwise, I have never heard anyone concern themselves over what their guests wear to their wedding! Or guests worry about proper dress. There is a lot of those concerns expressed on this forum. I've more been exposed to 'look nice and show up' and no one is going to pay one bit of attention to whether you are dressed a certain way or not!

But otherwise, I have never heard anyone concern themselves over what their guests wear to their wedding!

I believe a lot of this has to do with social media and/or brides that want everyone in the wedding photos to look/be dressed a certain way.

Don't we all have that one relative (or friend or acquaintance) that makes you shake your head (at least internally) when you see what they are wearing? Every. Single. Time.

I have never been a clothes horse, but dress so I feel nicely dressed. I would be happy to have a "uniform" (or three) each season and buy multiples of favorite items.

All four of my grandparents always dressed as soon as they got up. My parents did too, then after breakfast in their golden years.

Oly, thank you for your reply and I totally agree that regional differences are definitely at play here. The question of whether noticing / observing in itself is a kind of judgment depends so much on the intent of the noticer, so the way the word “judge” is both defined and used makes a difference. I will say that because we were in a small enclosed space there was reslly nowhere else to look 🙂and I also notice details like that because of my interest in clothing. An interior designer may have paid more attention to the details of the elevator carpet, wood finishes, etc, and an engineer might have been more interested in the ride itself. Or, given the setting, many people might have been too worried to notice anything. I also started adult life as a newspaper reporter and admit to a certain amount of interest (nosiness?) in details because I was trained to record what I saw.

Anyway, I did not take offense as I know you meant none ❤️ The angst surrounding wedding attire comes, I think, from a genuine desire to strike the right note as a guest, and not to wear anything that might compete visually from the wedding party or distract attention (with a spectacularly bad or good ensemble) from the event itself. That some brides are specifying colors and shoes and dress lengths can by turns be blamed on social media, their own insecurity, the very notion of what a wedding is, and — in one of Mtnrd’s best ever turns of phrase— the military/bridal/industrial complex.

I think there area few things that have happened to cause this --at least in some parts of the country apparently--one, there were cultural shifts in the 1960s and 1970s where anything traditional or establishment or whatever you want to call it was deemed unimportant. And not just unimportant enough to casually disregard for some people, they actually had to actively subvert it. And more recently, social media and influencers and all that.

I grew up in a working class area, and have probably been to more weddings at a VFW or high school cafeteria, or the Camp Owner's social hall than most people here. There was still never any question that if you went to a church wedding you put on a dress or nice outfit, a jacket and I tie, and if the reception was a little more casual, you knew what to wear there, too. It didn't matter if what you had was fashionable or unfashionable or from GC Murphy, you didn't "concern yourself" with it or obsess over it, people pretty much knew what to put on. You knew what to put on when you went to school, church, out to eat, whatever.

I have a niece who was raised pretty much where she was told nothing mattered. What you looked like didn't matter, what you put on in the morning didn't matter, if you didn't feel like combing your hair in the morning it didn't matter. If you didn't know how to put the silverware down on the table in the right order it didn't matter. You had choices and every choice had some consequences one way or the other but it was up to you. She of course was taught all of this by someone who grew up knowing exactly how to do all these things, who at least knew what "rules" they were breaking.

My niece hated it. She was a bundle of anxiety, she didn't like being told that nothing was important, she didn't like not being taught how to do regimented structured but easy things, she didn't like having to think about making her own decisions from about the age of 4.

Now she's in her 40s and she is still a bundle of anxiety, she's resentful of a lot of things she feels she missed, she is very insecure about what people think of her, if she is doing the right thing, how she looks, how people perceive her. She will spend $3000 on a handbag, (she can afford it) and then worry that some people will think it's pretentious/obnoxious , and worry that to the people who care about such things that it might not be the "right" one. (She also lives in a very bougie suburb where people DO spend and inordinate amount of time on keeping up appearances. The thing is that she is fine. She has always had good instincts and common sense about most things, but there was always this sense that she was not supposed to trust them because it was all just so "trivial" or so she was told.

And the other thing is, as mentioned is social media. People used to worry about having a reception where people had enough to eat and drink, people had a good time and so forth. If you did have that random uncle who showed up in sweat pants, so what?. If your relatives had on a loud sportscoat or an ugly dress so what? Now everyone seems less concerned about what the party IS, than how it's going to look on social media, so you are embarrassed about those things And I know it is considered incorrect to talk about social class, but people who were firehall kind of people used to have firehall kind of weddings (and still do, really) and people who had county club weddings had country club weddings. Each knew exactly how to do each. There was no figuring it out. Now everyone has to emulate something that is essentially foreign to them other than through social medial, it has to be something much "better" than what they are used to doing. The $5000 wedding set is trying to emulate the $50,000 wedding set, The $75,000 wedding set is trying to emulate the $1M wedding set. If anything is pretentious, all of that is, at every level of class.

Pal, I was coming to write what you also touched on. When weddings were held in churches, there was no need for a dress code. You knew how to dress to go to church.

Now, weddings are held in the strangest of places. The late Julia Reed held hers in an abondoned cotton gin. My niece’s is at a campground in the mountains. I’ve even heard of weddings on home plate at a baseball stadium. The places themselves do not give a clue as to appropriate attire, so the bride gets to set the tone/formality and has to communicate it to the guests.

Happily, I’ve never gotten an invitation dictating the color I must wear to the wedding. I hear that is done by some. I assume it is those who are looking more for extras for their production than for guests at their celebration.

Social media and technology have given us the ability to see how others live. For some, weddings at a church are the norm. For others it might be a cafeteria or some other venue. I once went to a wedding were the norm was for every family to bring cookies. At my wedding we jumped the broom. Attire is no different. I think it is interesting to see how others live and what they feel comfortable wearing and doing and why.

I think I have mentioned here before that decades ago I gave up pants with zippers and buttons. I don't own a pair of jeans, I don't buy clothing that is sized by numbers, and when I need a T-shirt I borrow one from dh. I love reading style threads and watching videos because I like seeing how different people do things and what they think of as important. Imo a huge part of looking good is not about what you wear but how you feel when you wear it. I think confidence is key. I generally don't care what others think about how I dress. I think I look smashing and that's all that matters to me.

If we all dressed the same then people watching would not be a thing . I enjoy doing it. I also enjoy giving watchers something to look at.

What thoughtful and interesting replies! Thank you for taking the time and effort to do so. I loved reading them all!

Friday, I think those of us who’ve met you would agree that yes, you are marching to your own drummer, but, damn, he’s got a good beat!

^^ What she said!^^

Agree Oly, this group is the best!

I'm late to the "flattering" part of this thread. I'm not so sure I've said it more than a handful of times, but if said to me, I take it as, *that* (whatever that is) looks good on you, you look good in it. Keep it up. Color comes to mind. Some people wear the most god-awful colors. I would never say, take that off, it makes you look pasty or dead. I just don't make negative remarks about someone's appearance. But when they wear something that's, um, flattering, I tell them so. Has nothing to do with height or weight. I figure we all have what we have to work with.

Bbstx you are a hoot! I hope that we can meet again some day. I wanted to chat with you during dinner but you didn't make it. I like stepping to my own beat, and btw it is always off. When it is 1-3 I am 2-4. It is just who I am. 😉

Mtnrd my Gretchen Scott blue and white stripe scallop collar shirt in size L arrived and of course it is too big. However, I have decided to have the long front darts tailored smaller to fit without gapping or having to ise tape.

I have picked up a few things recently -- most pretty darn casual as that seems to be the only things catching my attention these days.

Loved this... i went down 2 sizes so it isnt as sloppy as it is styled here.

Tried this refined scoop neck tee last year and it was too small-- it was on super sale at BR so I tried it again. It fits and I really like it! I also bought some other basic long and short sleeve tees but this one is a slight step above the basics. A huge win at $13

Love a lightweight cashmere in spring! I wore it yesterday (before I had to change into a tee when sitting in the sun!)

these havent arrived yet .. but i think they will be good for cool mornings/evenings or as the seasons transition.

not sure this is my style but i love the color!

I have been wearing cheap jeans from old navy since I started losing weight. I get them when they are under $20 and seemed "good enough" .. but yesterday my sister told me that they are too big and baggy lol. I dont think I need a smaller size .. i think I need a better cut. Honestly, I had noticed the same thing in a photo taken of me a year ago and then I kind of forgot or put it off thinking I'd upgrade when I lost more weight. I havent lost enough to justify a whole new jean wardrobe so I am trying a few from Nordstrom Rack .. more than $20 but not $150. Wish me luck -- I hate trying on jeans!

Oh Funky - I hate trying on clothes at all. It's one of the unexpected effects of Covid when I wasn't shopping and didn't need anything.

But congrats on continuing to lose weight. It's not an easy task so kudos to you. I like all of the tops you selected, the first one is really cute and the pink cashmere one is such a pretty shade.

The pink sweater is a gorgeous color Funky, and will look wonderful on you! I also like a light cotton knit / open weave for spring.

Trying on jeans has got to be in the top ten on everybody’s ” things I hate to do” list. I have really enjoyed shopping in person when I can take my time, though. I try on things I would never order from a catalog or an online site.

@Funkyart Is the white open weave cardi above from Banana Republic? Thanks.

Hhireno -- no, it is Vince.

The pink cashmere v neck and the stretchy refined scoop neck tee are BR

The blue/white tee and the blue sweater at the bottom are Anthropologie

If I am in the mood to try things on, I actually enjoy trying on jeans. I always get a better fit when I go to the store and try them on vs ordering on line and hoping I picked the right size.

The thing I despise shopping for is bras. And bathing suits. The worst!

I dont really have anywhere local to try on jeans other than Old Navy .. we have local boutiques with jeans but they dont go above a size 12 (not yet in that range for jeans LOL) .. i have been told to give walmart a try but eh-- i am dubious and since i dont drive I am not all that keen to make a trek to walmart.

I have been struggling with shopping and i think part of it is the options available this season and part of it is I have been in a personal rut. I have been leaning into neutral items and.... well things that are more doudy and less cute. I think I am down because I havent lost significant weight and because i am a year older lol. The visit with my sister/niece was good because they help snap me out of it. Hoping the warm sunny weather carries me to more fun options too!

I'm lucky with JJill’s authentic slim jean. I also have an Old Navy that fits well.

In the past I’ve had jeans from Loft and Talbots.

I have jeans from many places now:

American Eagle (sized down and they still fall off my backside)

Democracy (ok, no size issues until they stretch)

Hudson (too long!)

Lucky (no fit issues)

Chicos (love fabric but they’re made for ”mature” women meaning backside issues)

LL Bean (no size issues)

Spanx (no size issues)

Talbot’s (must size down to fit rump, but then short)

And a couple I can’t even remember. 🤔 The search for the perfect jeans is a Quixotic goal.

Today (and yesterday) I watched our 2 and a half year okd grandson who was out of daycare with a cold. He was up almost hourly last night for sips of water which made for a rough night for us both. After I took him home this afternoon ( a 90 minute round trip) I had dress rehearsal for Thursday’s university concert ( another 90 min trip). This was today’s child minding, car driving, singing outfit; washable and practical but not very inspired. In the evening I wore a vintage British Khaki blazer in a navy cotton/ linen blend that jazzed it up a bit.

Talbot’s chinos, Tahari top, Sperry shoes. Is “Suburban Grandma“ a thing? No? I didn’t think so 😁

Well, I think you look great! If that is Suburban Grandma, I’m all for it. My mother, who I thought was a pretty nice dresser, wore Sperry shoes just like yours. She had them in white, navy, and tan. That was as close as she ever came to a running shoe.

I wore a similar outfit yesterday, except I was wearing jeans and my striped top was cream with navy stripes. It is a J. Crew top that I bought last year and forgot about. Now that I’ve lost 12-ish pounds, it no longer fits. 😢 It is way too big in the shoulders, of all places. Makes me look strange.

I have that same top BBstx, in navy/cream and navy/red. If you wash it in hot water and out it in the dryer it will shrink —mine did. I usually have a mixed reaction to something suddenly being too big… delighted on the one hand, but if I really like the garment, kind of irritated also. When I got out my spring and summer clothing i was dismayed that none of my shorts fit. My weight seems to have stabilized after the drop I attribute to golfing, but I only bought 4 pair in white, navy, khaki and a khaki and white narrow stripe. I’m hoping the fancy Spanx black dress shorts still look ok.