Anyone have experience with a damaging power surge?

last month

last modified: last month

We are shopping for homes, went to one today where the power was completely out. Our realtor messaged the seller's realtor who said the power to the house was recently accidentally cut. She said the seller is working on restoring the power and also replacing some appliances damaged by the power surge. The house is vacant.

I've Googled but wanted to know if anyone here had any insight. I'm especially concerned about damage that may be hidden or shorten the life span of things like heat pumps, water heaters, air conditioners, etc.

We like the house but the power surge issue has me concerned.

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w0lley32

last month

I would take that excuse of line mistakenly cut during fiber optics installation with a large grain of salt. Telecom lines and power lines are kept well separated on the utility poles, and they are physically completely different from one another. Furthermost, whoever is licensed to work on utility poles knows how to distinguish the two.

Did you notice if only this house had no power, or if something like 6-8 houses lost power altogether? I am not saying this is the case, but I have a feeling there is either some electrical issue about the house they didn't want you to see, or they are using the power surge excuse to force you to sign off on the house right away, or to make you schedule another visit.

If you like this house, definitely talk with the neighbours about that power surge before signing anything.

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Comments (20)

lascatx
last month
last modified: last month
We learned after my son moved into his home that there had been a lightening strike that had not been disclosed. We suddenly understood why the sellers wanted a fast close and to rent back, a tactic filled with potential problems and didn't make sense unless they were not telling us something. And they weren't. Then an insurance check came -- new AC unit, TV and maybe some other things. His doorbell has been problematic - they put up a battery operated Ring. He had an electrician come out check everything after having a TV melt. He was home and saw it drooping so there wasn't a larger problem, but he got concerned. It appears to have been the TV and not a wiring problem. Everything checked out fine. He now has a whole house surge protector for added peace of mind.

I think the issues with appliances should become apparent soon, but they have to be used to become apparent. I would have a good general inspection but would also consider having an electrician come in and test everything. I'd look at what appliances were replaced and which ones weren't, how old they are and what life expectancy they might have either way and factor that into the negotiations. I think I would also be curious how the power was cut and by whom... I might feel differently if I knew the circumstances.

BTW, the seller replaced the AC before we saw the house (the old one was still sitting off to the side). There was a melting control panel trim on the oven that was noted as a recall issue and not likely connected to the lightening. He negotiated a price for a new oven, then discovered he could get a new control panel, watched a video and he and DH installed it. The TV starting to melt was unrelated and he had a Samsung fridge that died -- also a noted problem and subject of a class action we later learned about. He had reasons to get spooked, but everything has been checked out and unrelated other than the seller's TV and the AC that was replaced. I think there are ways to check and test everything, to negotiate an uncertainty factor in price or maybe even leave some funds in escrow for repairs if needed for a period of time to allow for all the systems to be used and assured they are working properly. How much is reasonable would all go back to what is replaced and the age and condition of the remaining items. I'd feel pretty comfortable going forward if you have an electrical inspection and they test the wiring, appliances and such.
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Clyde Kalvin
last month
We have. We had lighting strike near our house twice. First time it fried a tv. The second time it fried a tv, a DVR player and a Switch dock. We had a surge protector on these things but apparently it did not come in through the electrical. Somehow it came through the HDMI cords. It did not affect all the power in the house. This was a few years back and we didn't notice any issues with HVAC, tankless water heater or appliances.
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Read those IEEE and NIST articles to understand why both say power strip protectors protect only from a type of surge that is not typically destructive. A power strip without an earthed 'whole house' protector can even make appliance damage easier. Can sometimes create house fires. Or put 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. Page 42 figure 8. No protector defines a protection layer. Not one. Some protection layers have no protector. But every protection layer must always have one item - earth ground. Why does a power strip promoter not discuss earthing? He is paid to promote obscenely profitable protectors that have no earthing. Profit centers will not even claim protection in manufacturer spec sheets or discuss what does all protection - earth ground. Previous posts discussed secondary protection - an earthed 'whole house' protector. Homeowners should also inspect their primary protection layer. Only the engineer would recommend what to inspect. No profit is reaped by discussing a primary surge protection layer. A picture of what to inspect: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html Each protection layer is only defined by earth ground. Any protector without an earth ground (ie plug-in type) does not do nor claim protection. A power strip must somehow magically stop and block a surge. And not discuss what absorb hundreds of thousands of joules - earth. One industry guru in his 1994 IEEE paper repeats what the NIST and IEEE say. Martzloff says damage can happen because a 'point of connection' protector makes damage easier. His very first conclusion says: > Conclusion: > 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly > show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur > even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are > present at the point of connection of appliances. When selling a $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $40 and $120, then contradicting professionals and confusing layman is necessary. Professionals say a protector without earthing is "useless". Engineered protection systems locate every protector as close as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. And waste no money on power strips. NIST says what all protectors must do to have protection: > What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest > a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. Since plug-in protectors do not have the always required earth ground, then the NIST also says what a plug-in protector really does: > The best surge protection in the world can be useless > if grounding is not done properly. "Useless". Obviously. No dedicated wire for an always required earth ground means no layer of protection. Why would anyone recommend a protector that has no earthing? Every telco switching station will suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that $multi-million computer? Never. Because telcos waste no money on power strips. Telcos always - as in no exceptions - earth surges using the proven 'whole house' solution. Then no surge is inside causing damage. One protector from Polyphaser (an industry benchmark) has no earth connection. A distance to earth is so critical that a Polyphaser protector mounts ON earth ground. Zero feet to earth. Another solution discussed by someone who did this stuff. Any current that is not earthed outside will be so tiny (ie noise) that protection inside every appliance (even GFCIs, digital clocks, and dimmer switches) is not overwhelmed. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes (or 100 surges to the $multi-million computer) without damage. Protection by earthing one 'whole house' protector is so routine that one should not even know a surge existed. An effective protector remains functional even after a direct lightning strike. House fires are another problem with plug-in protectors. Another reason why power strip protectors must be protected from surges - by earthing one 'whole house' protector. A protector is only as effective as the item that defines each protection layer - earth ground. Protector without a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') earth connection provides no protection layer. Can sometimes make appliance damage easier � 8000 volts destructively on page 42 figure 8. In some cases has causes house fires. One protector or 1000 protectors connected to the same earth ground is still only one protection layer. One protector or 1000 - the protection is exactly same - only as good as the earth ground.
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What kaseki accurately noted may not be completely obvious. Hopefully this rephrasing will help. The electrical system and every other incoming utility must be earthed. However, that means only one incoming wire for AC electric connects directly to earth. That connection is that bare copper wire from the breaker box, through foundation to earth electrodes. They did what is minimally required IF not measuring earth conductivity - two 8 foot electrodes six feet apart. Those exist first for human safety. As kaseki notes, a human touching that ground wire or devices connected to it (ie a bathtub, water pipes, dishwasher, stove, all other hardwired appliances, etc) is not electrocuted. "Bonding" is for human safety. All safety grounds must meet at (be bonded to) a common neutral strip inside the breaker box. Bonding is about a low resistance connection; not a low impedance connection. Gas pipe is a special case. Some gas utilities want your interior gas pipe bonded. Others do not. Although both grounds (safety and earth) interconnect, only earth ground also has additional requirements to perform transistor safety. So earth ground also must have no sharp bends, not be inside metallic conduit, no splices, and a low impedance (ie less than ten feet) connection. A grounding wire will be thick enough to 'weather' without failure. However inspection is encouraged. Some bury that wire and put a plastic cap over electrodes. So that a wire connection to electrodes can be inspected while also protected from weather and lawn mowers. Important is quality of that earthing electrode. If in sandy soil (or dry as kaseki noted), then that may be insufficient. But in most cases, two copper clad electrodes (they must be more than 8 feet long) are minimally sufficient. That electrode must also connect to all other incoming utilities. Cable TV, antenna, and satellite dish coax must make a low impedance connection to that same electrode BEFORE entering. No protector required. A ground block is one means of a direct connection: http://files.cablewholesale.com/hires/200-278.jpg or http://www.dbsinstall.com/N-images/Whatis/Driploop-1.jpg Telephone will not work if earthed directly. So a 'whole house' protector is installed for free by the telco. How it was done over 50 years ago: http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg Today that protector is inside an NID with a typically green or gray wire connected low impedance to that earthing electrode: http://www.inetdaemon.com/img/telecom/NID/closed.jpg http://www.findaphoneman.com/test%20instructions%20b.htm Cable and telephone surge protection (earthing by hardwire or protector) is required by safety codes and other industry standards. But one incoming utility, not required to have protection, is also the most common source of destructive surges - AC electric. A 'whole house' protector may be located behind the electric meter or attached to the main beaker box. Three AC wires may be incoming. One (neutral) connects directly to a bare copper quarter inch wire as required by code. Other two must connect to earth via a 'whole house' protector. If any of three do not make that low impedance connection, then all structure protection has been compromised. Above summarized how each utility wire connects to earth. Quality of earth ground is also important. A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions: http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp One (single point) earth ground must exist (which is completely different from a safety ground in wall receptacles). That utility Tech Tip demonstrates same. kaseki also mentions lightning rods. The most critical component of a lightning rod system is its earth ground. Lightning connects as short as possible to earth on a wire so that lightning need not connect to earth destructively via a structure. The most critical component of a 'whole house' system is its earth ground. So that lightning need not connect to earth destructively via appliances. In both cases, the system is only as effective as its earth ground.
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You might want to check with the electric company and see if there was an external reason for the outage. Several years ago, we experienced an outage in my neighborhood that caused many of us to have damaged appliances even though we had a whole house surge protector. The cause of the outage was a man driving his car who went into a diabetic coma and hit a telephone pole a couple miles from our house. The driver's insurance paid for the damages to the items in my house.
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@James Podobea Yep, sounds like we (& prob many others) are in the same boat. I just did a round of repair endseam gluing the other day, so I don't have many pics, but have attached one plank gap that recently emerged. Notably, the creaking occurs consistently on one end of each plank end; reinforcing my conclusion that this is not [just] installer failure, but genuine defective product/design. In our case, putting weight (stepping) on the north end of any plank-to-plank end seam produces a creak. I don't recall wether the 'north end' corresponds to the 'tongue' or the 'groove' segment, but once you know & test it around the house, its incredibly reliable. I've found that gluing the end-seams with tongue & groove glue has been a [tedious] repair solution that has worked with decent success —for now. It stops the creaks, and prevents gaps from periodically forming. 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The suction handle is capable of sliding one plank reasonably well, but once you bond multiple planks together the accumulated friction will become too much. • Attach the suction handle to the last plank in the run —closest to the wall • Gently tap the end of the suction handle with the mallet to shift the plank toward the wall. ...you don't want/need to SMASH it, just tap it along, 1/8" or less at a time **until you've created a 0.25–0.5 inch gap between the end plank & the next one**. This is your *"working gap"* • Move along the run and shift the working gap to the middle of the run • Apply a bead of glue along the exposed tongue of the working gap. You don't need to "fill" the gap, and you don't necessarily want the glue to seep along the side seam. • Attach the suction handle to the plank on the wall-side of the seam, and stand/squat on the plank on the "mid-run" side of the seam. • Gently tap the end seam until the top surface of the boards are juust about touching, but don't smash them together. • With a *dry clean cloth*, wipe up any excess glue that oozes out of the seam as it comes together. • For the final 1/32–1/64th (just barely visible) gap, use the wood block to apply slight pressure to one side of the seam—the tongue side— as you apply the final mallet taps; not your whole body weight, but just enough. • Wipe off any excess glue with a *dry cloth*, then a slightly damp cloth for the final clean-up. ...per the glue instructions, any additional water applied (by over wetting/wiping during cleanup) will decrease the strength of your bond. • With some practice/experience, you'll figure out just the right amount of glue to effectively secure the seam without too much ooze-out. • **BUT its better to err on the side of ooze-out** and clean-up, rather than *unknowingly* not have enough glue in the seam to create a strong bond. ....this is the kind of thing where "you only get one chance to do it right" • Work your way along the run from the middle to the wall, then repeat in the other direction. • Think through any doorway or cabinet obstructions that might be present. You may need to start gluing a run at these 'captivated' planks, then work your way to the wall. The process is LOUD, cumbersome, and you'll also want to be able to not walk on the area for at least 24 hours while the glue cures (*definitely no walking for the first ~1-3 hours after gluing*). Its really a pain in the but to apply this repair over any large area, so working through 2-3 of your most problematic/noisy runs at a time is probably the best way to go. ...this piecewise approach is also why its important to not let too much glue ooze into the side seams; you don't want adjacent plank runs glued together. Example of an emergent gap between plank ends...these arise throughout the house quite regularly: Here's the glue and the suction device I've used with some success to deal with the creaks & gaps
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nicole
last month
last modified: last month
Our last house was hit by lightning. It fried ALL 3 TV's , the stereo receiver & the landline phone. Other electronics just had to be turned off, then back on...to reset them. We had individual surge protectors on the refrigerator & washer/dryer, for instance. We put in a whole house surge protector in the electric panel. Then replaced those things that were fried. We lived there another 6 years. All is well.

Dee...I don't know how old the house is your looking at? Are the outlets grounded?

Potentially any wiring could have been "fried"...but that doesn't mean it was. I'd certainly have an electrician check the house before making an offer.
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jrb451
last month
@Clyde Kalvin, a couple of years ago we had a nearby lightning strike that fried the modem, router, a DVD and TV in one room and DirecTV receiver in another. All this and none of the GFCI breakers tripped. So, the surge didn’t come through the electrical wiring.
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lascatx
last month
In most places, you would have to make an offer and have it accepted subject to whatever contingencies or rights to terminate in order to have a contractual interest in the property and a right to do inspections. Findings of the inspection then become a basis for negotiating changes to the contract or terminating it. TVs and computers -- things that would not generally be sold with a home, are the things most often impacted.

Was there construction being done on the home or road or utility construction done nearby? It would be odd to have power accidentally cut to just one home. I have been known to talk to neighbors I see near homes on the market. They can tell you all kinds of things about the house, the neighborhood, what about that power issue, etc. But I'd also be curious what a good electrician would tell you. I usually hear of power surges associated with power being restored or storms that put extra load on the wires - not so much with power being cut. You have a right to ask more questions of the realtor and seller too. If you buy the house and do have issues down the road, you may have a right to seek recovery from a third party -- but you need to know if the seller has settled and signed off on any future claims.
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deegw
Original Author
last month
lscatx - the damage was from a mistakenly cut power line during a neighborhood fiber installation.

The house is in NC which means that in order to inspect the home we have to give the seller a due diligence fee to "compensate" them for taking the house off the market. It's not refundable unless the seller misrepresents something about the house. It can be as high as 1% of the purchase price. So, we're trying to get our ducks in a row before we proceed.

After the due diligence, then the buyers pay the earnest money. It's a crazy way to buy a home.
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deegw
Original Author
last month
nicole, the house was built in 1990 so the wiring is modern but I don't know which parts, if any, had additional surge protection.
bbstx
last month
Man, real estate agents in NC must have a stong lobby! I’ve never heard of a due diligence fee!
nicole
last month
Dee....here in Colorado we can go in with an agent and visually inspect...crawl into the attic for instance...or hold electrical testers up to each outlet...to see what's working or not without anyone's permission. I'm confident we can fix problems...should we find something at a later date. I'd look at the furnace to make sure the heat exchanger looks good...not cracked. The hot water tank isn't older than 9 years....those are things I'd immediately replace. I gut the kitchens and bathrooms...generally speaking when I purchase a house.
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vinmarks
last month
Wouldn't the power company have gotten the line fixed already? I would think one power line being cut would have been fixed pretty quickly...No?

I would definitely talk to neighbors to see if there actually was a power outage/line cut.
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lascatx
last month
We've had all kinds of problems with fiber optic lines being run here, but mostly sprinkler systems and water lines. They mark the lines, map them and are supposed to have smeone come out and flag them before digging, but the third party contractors are not regular employees. You'd think they'd geta crew that specializes in such things but it seems to be more like the holiday extras at UPS. That could well be the reason -- but it would be odd if only that house was hit. The line run would have had to snap the power supply running to the house off the trunk. I also agree that you would expect that to be quickly repaired. And it is something that can be verified. You can ask if the seller has settled regarding damages or if that is an open claim in case you had any problems later.
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dadoes
29 days ago
GFCI doesn't provide either power surge or lightning protection.
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nicole
29 days ago
@dadoes...I know. That question was to determine the age of her home. Sorry to confuse you.
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Austin Air Companie
28 days ago
last modified: 28 days ago
Damaging power surges.

Yeah they do happen from time to time. Not necessarily due to lightning strike, could come from power company making changes to the load on the grid. We take for granted what grid operators must do to keep the grid up.

While lightning strikes can cause damage, I think the surges due to power grid changes employed by grid operator to keep the grid up at times is probably more likely to be more severe. This event could be triggered by a lightning strike as a lightning strike is often associated with taking homes off the grid and therefore requires adjustment by grid operator to keep the whole grid from going down.

I've got a 30 year HVAC career, of in person going to homes that have suffered various degrees of damaging events due to power disruptions, surges, lightning strikes (real and probably imagined)

Could you suffer from a power surge created by your own home?
- Appliance Cycling:Large appliances like air conditioners, refrigerators, washing machines, and HVAC systems have powerful motors that draw a lot of electricity when they start up. When these appliances turn off, the sudden change in power draw can cause a temporary surge in voltage, which can then travel through your home's electrical system.
- Electrical Overload:Plugging too many devices into a single circuit can cause a surge if the circuit's capacity is exceeded.
- Faulty Wiring:Damaged or exposed electrical wires can also lead to power surges.
- Other Internal Sources:According to SaveOnEnergy.com, internal sources of power surges can include contactor, relay, and breaker operations, switching of capacitor banks and loads, discharge of inductive devices, fault or arc initiation, arcing faults, fault clearing or interruption, power system recovery (from an outage) and DC battery storage systems.
- External Sources:While homes can generate their own surges, it's important to note that external sources like lightning strikes or issues with the utility company's equipment can also cause surges.
- Protecting Your Home:To protect your home and electronics from power surges, consider installing a whole-house surge protector, using surge protectors with larger electronic devices, and scheduling a home wiring inspection. According to Sky Heating, AC, Plumbing & Electrical, you can also unplug electronics during a storm and turn off everything during an outage.
While a whole house surge protector can help for a while, most gadget buyers never read the fine print of "Maintenance" So your protection is only as good as what you "employ" to keep it that way. (costs money, over and over and over) -- nice house, good luck keeping it that way. Ask me how I know?
- Signs of a Failing Surge Protector:
  
  No longer protecting: The surge protector may continue to function, but no longer protect your devices.
  
  Visual Inspection: Look for signs of damage, such as a frayed or damaged cord, or brittle insulation.
  
  Warning Lights: Some surge protectors have indicator lights that signal when they are no longer providing protection.
- Lifespan:While there's no exact expiration date, surge protectors generally last for a few years, typically 3-5 years.
- Factors Affecting Lifespan:The lifespan can vary depending on factors like the quality of the surge protector, the frequency of power surges in your area, and the severity of the surges.
- Replacement:It's a good practice to replace surge protectors every few years, or after a known significant surge event, to ensure your devices remain protected.
Some surge protectors may sacrifice themselves for this reason *possibly* -- so you're left to keep paying for this protection? That you may never need.

Lightning doesn't strike the same place twice? I would be the unlucky one to get struck by it if it did? So we'll see if this starts an argument or not... in the comments.

What are your odds? I'm in Texas, we get alot of bad storms lightning strikes often in the 100's per second on more occasions than you can sneeze pollen out your nose.

I've been in 3 homes within the span of a bit over 30 years (HVAC Service & Repair) where there had been significant damage due to a power surge event. In only one of those homes was everything a complete loss... meaning anything and everything that had been plugged in was gone.

The 2 other homes mostly just electronics, circuit board in HVAC system(s). Seems to me the home with the complete loss the insurance company was covering it but that event was about 20 years ago, Insurance coverage may be different for these kinds of things now?

Just because a house suffered one once doesn't in my mind make it any more likely to suffer it again.
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Jennifer Hogan
28 days ago
The laws and customs for real estate transactions are different in every state, but in all 50 states the contracts are negotiable. Have your realtor amend the due diligence fee clause to include refundability based on the electrical inspection findings.
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deegw
Original Author
28 days ago
last modified: 28 days ago
Jennifer, the real estate market is currently very competitive, and the house was just listed. At this moment, we don't have much leverage.

The realtor recommended that we could make an offer with a smaller-than-usual due diligence fee, citing potential electrical issues as the reason.

There are other concerns with the house as well, so we're still considering our options.
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Jennifer Hogan
28 days ago
Buying a home is hard, especially in this market. I have no idea what your level of experience is or how long you have been looking, but it takes a bit of time and the experience of seeing a lot of homes before you get comfortable with "knowing" this is the right property and can confidently make an offer. I wish you the best of luck in your search.
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kevin9408
28 days ago
Even if durable goods are included in a home sale they are always sold "as is" with no warranty applied. Never in my life have I seen a shortened life span from a power surge, they are damaged where they won't work, or work fine but nothing in between.

I'll bet with out risk of losing that all appliances damaged because of the surge was in the low voltage power regulation circuit supplying control electronics. These circuits use 1.5volts to 5 volts and easy to fry, and A small surge above 120v or 240v for fraction of a second is not going to smoke an appliance component to weaken it. but will take out the electronics quickly. Weakening the unit Just doesn't happen, It's broke or it isn't.

In the early 80's I had an appliance and TV repair business and had a deal with insurance companies to buy broken appliances and electronics from power surges for 10% of the claim. I made a lot of money on the stuff and most were easy fixes except for lighting strikes. Not many appliances because back then they didn't use much electronics in them, but truck loads of TV's stereo equipment and VCR's, and went through fuses more than any other electronic components.
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Austin Air Companie
27 days ago
Never in my life have I seen a shortened life span from a power surge, they are damaged where they won't work, or work fine but nothing in between.

Yeah it's argumentative at best. While surges do cause damage there's also the "normal wear and tear".

About 90% of my job is fixing electrical problems within your HVAC system. But to suggest these electrical problems are all due to surge events? um no. A good lot of it is due to heat and cooling off over an over which eventually causes the best to break as well as the worst.

Fuses are mostly there to protect from a short. As fuses are cheaper than a new step down transformer, provided of course you fix the short. (no, wait let's put in one more fuse ) I suppose this sort of replace a fuse thing may be different for a VCR or microwave? Most of these are like $50-100 now so I would be more likely to just buy a new one these days. But wait I can fix your old one for $200. LOL. (maybe a few people are more sentimental with their junk than others?)

I kid you not I recently ran an HVAC call where there were half a dozen fuses laying near the unit and the fuse in the unit was blown. The guy had a rodent problem they were chewing wires. Just so you realize there are often clues for those that look and investigate an issue. So not only do i have to fix it, I also have to see if the nucklehead before me did something nefarious. So I left it with the unit running probably better than it has in a decade and much more to do than merely replace the fuse a dozen more times expecting a different result. Ha, ha.

Now if you have more than 3 things go down and quit working at once? probably could be something sinister, could also just be a coincidence.

There's no such thing as coincidences? [how old is your junk... hey my stuff is not junk! Take a lookie see where it was manufactured at? Even if it was your poor little HVAC system? um yeah. Parts and pieces come from all over the world... even if it was assembled here. So junk is kind of an "operative word here".]

Look on the bright side, you're learning alot. Maybe you'll keep some coin in your pockets and make better financial decisions. HVAC? moving forward is going to be a hard one on your wallet for more than 1 reason. Nothing to do with brand, where it was assembled, or the parts contained there in. They all break and??? (the weeds... end it here boss)

I service the Katy, Texas area.
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Anyone have experience with a damaging power surge?

w0lley32

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Anyone have experience with a damaging power surge?

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deegw
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deegw
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deegw
Original Author