Houzz Logo Print
pamlikeslabs

Hemming and Hawing

last month

Hello again,

I’m trying to finalize my kitchen layout after months of going back and forth with different plans. I understand I shouldn’t start a new thread, but I can’t seem to find any of my old posts, so I apologize in advance.

I’m leaning toward Buehl’s plan below, with a few minor tweaks. Since this original plan, I’ve decided to remove the mudroom wall, which opens up more space and options. I’ve also chosen to go with a 30" range instead of a 36" and decided against including a beverage refrigerator. I’m still debating where to place the microwave and have given up on the idea of a second oven since I’ve purchased a range (induction).

Given these changes, are there any adjustments you’d suggest for the layout?

Specifically:

  1. With the 30" range on the 112" wall, do you recommend using 36" drawers on each side of the range? Or would it be better to opt for 30" drawers and leave space for a narrow pantry?
  2. For venting to the outside, the floor joists above run perpendicular to the wall, and there’s a bathroom directly above. Could this pose a problem? I am on a crawlspace foundation. I know downdraft venting isn’t typically recommended, but could it be my only option in this case? The contractor said the venting would run over the length of my kitchen ceiling which doesn't seem the best given what I've read here.

Thank you for your input! I'm all ears!



Buehl's original plan--before I made some changes.

Below is to help with measurements. This has the walkway into the dining room being widened so both walls are 112" on each side of the island. Also, the prep sink in island is not located correcty in this contractor photo. I now have 97 inches along mudroom wall.


Comments (53)

  • last month

    The main thing that would drive me absolutely crazy with this plan is that any utensils or dishes used by the stove for prep or otherwise have no dishwasher close by to put them in. You’d be traversing the island and isles dripping all the way to the dishwasher. The same goes for the prep area in the island…..no dishwasher nearby for dirty utensils or bowls etc. If it were my kitchen, I would absolutely add a single dishwasher drawer to the left of the island sink. That could cover the stove area as well as the island prep area.

    pamlikeslabs thanked Nidnay
  • last month
    last modified: last month

    The problem with adding a dishdrawer, is that it doesnt solve the problem of the frig so far away from where you are working, and the sink, so far away from the stove. I would look for a plan that is a lot more fuctional, than that one, before I added anything else to it.

    pamlikeslabs thanked cat_ky
  • Related Discussions

    Analysis Paralysis – window shades & transoms

    Q

    Comments (21)
    Wanted to give an update so this isn't left hanging and maybe this info will help someone else at some point. justerrilynn what you said about 'not messing with the feel of the room' really struck a chord with me and made me re-examine the reasons I wanted woven wood shades. Being honest with myself it's because I see them everywhere online, every blog, every designer's portfolio, pinterest, insta.... 90% of the time with white curtains. It's a great look and one that works in a lot of settings but that's not a valid reason to play me, too. Plus it's a little too 'of the moment' IYKWIM and will change the focus of the room. Decided to to a test run on only the 2 windows flanking the TV because that limits the loss if we hate it and we can always order more if we like it. DH installed them yesterday and I think we've hit on a way to attractively and easily cut glare when needed and not compromise the look of the windows when shades are up which is 98% of the time. Thank you for helping me get there!
    ...See More

    My recent plant haul

    Q

    Comments (11)
    "My Cup Plant is in a regular bed, and it's fine there.I'm thankful it's close by to view. It's no more than 6 feet tall." Hmmm, maybe i can work the cup plant into one of the beds if it only gets around 6'. Like I said in the other post, when I saw it in display garden it was a monster 8-9' plant. Yowza. But actually 5-6' is perfect for this bed -- I haven't started moving things yet, glad you posted - now I can consider it, quite nice in your pics. "Do you have a site in mind for each (other than Silphium perfoliatum) or is it fluid?" For the most part - yes. I have a whole bed re-do (well, maybe not the whole thing, but pretty darn close to it), most of these will be going in that bed and an adjacent one. I might switch a Joe Pye with one of the bonesets -- when I set the pot there yesterday I didn't like the white flowers there as much as I thought I would, probably because there's a lot of white there already. But I'm flip-flopping on it -- I have monkshood in that area, and that rich deep blue is fantastic against white, but OTOH the foliage and stems of the Joe Pye has a bit more pizzazz. This is prime real estate right out the window. Decisions, decisions... The other boneset is going in an area next to some native hibiscus, it should do beautifully over there (near the sump drain, full sun = happy).
    ...See More

    Phrase of the day 1/26

    Q

    Comments (2)
    So Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners--that would be hawing!
    ...See More

    I finally ditched them!

    Q

    Comments (5)
    I don't have May Night but I have Salvia Rose Queen and the purple one, I forget the name. I get a long period of bloom when I deadhead and after it's finished blooming, I give it a good haircut and it produces nice clean foliage that stays neat until frost. At least I think that's what I remember happens with mine. [g] I'll have to make sure to notice this year.
    ...See More
  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    A huge amount of money for a bad kitchen? Can you show the whole of the living floor, please? As is?

    What is "to unknown" on plan on Buehl plan?

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Happy New Year! Sorry I am currently on my phone rather than computer but will try to post a few photos. Will give more necessary details/measurements once able to post easier.
    I appreciate everyone’s ideas, suggestions, critiques. I have been pondering my layout since June and can’t seem to figure it out. It’s been pretty frustrating so all help is really appreciated. Below are a few photos. Front door walks into great room. Hallway to right leads to kitchen. Circles around to dining room.

  • PRO
    last month

    An accurate and full floor plan of ALL around the kitchen would be immensely helpful. All the feet and inches and full context.

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    I'm back on my computer and have an outline of my kitchen with some measurements( which is basically 14x16.) Will post the rest of my main floor great room/dining room shortly.

    A few notes:


    Am willing to get rid of the mudroom walls and open up that area.

    Am willing to remove some or all of load bearing wall to the right of the doorway into dining room or move the doorway leading into the dining room. We would like more light in our kitchen.

    Can't do anything with 95" wall where cooktop currently is.

    Can't do anything along desk wall -112" wall --as there is plumbing/bathroom/bedroom up above.

    Can't change doorway location into garage.


    Thank you in advance. My 2025 goal is to update my kitchen!







  • last month

    Below is the floor plan of our great room/hallways/ dining room and how it relates to the kitchen.


    Thank you for the continued help.


  • PRO
    last month

    Your biggest challenge is that you have too many doorways giving rise to too many walkways through the kitchen. I would see if you can move the dining room doorway to the far right closer to the nook. This would allow you to create an L-shape with fridge, range and sink in the "L."

    Then combine the mudroom and laundry room, move that room to the left where the garage door opening is, and move the garage door all the way to the right. Then place a tall bank of cabinets with pullout pantry on the wall on the other side of the laundry/mud room.

    This arrangement would avoid traffic passing through the work area.

    I'll see if I can send you a visual.

    pamlikeslabs thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
  • PRO
    last month


    This is what I was proposing, although it may not be possible since your measurements are a bit off. Discuss this with your kitchen designer and see if it's possible given the actual field measurements and required clearances.

    pamlikeslabs thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
  • PRO
    last month

    How many hundreds of thousands is your budget? How long are you going to live here? You will never get your money back as added value, over just keeping what is there. So you'd really better get something a lot more functional than that to make the whole painful renovation process and large expense be worth it to you.

    pamlikeslabs thanked Minardi
  • last month

    Thank you very much for the responses, Diana Biers and Minardi. While I really like the updated plan and agree it would improve the kitchen's flow to move the doorways, moving the garage door seems nearly impossible. Behind the laundry wall are an electric panel and a well pump, and the clearances would need to be reworked due to the second-floor bathroom overhead.


    It’s quite the conundrum. We bought the house in a hurry due to military orders, thinking we’d only be here for a few years. But here we are, 19 years later, and the poor design still frustrates me. The house has many quirky, afterthought-like design elements, but now that my husband is retired and content staying put, I’m focusing on making it as functional as possible without breaking the bank to do it.

  • PRO
    last month

    There's nothing wrong with doing a renovation that will increase your enjoyment of your home. Don't worry about resale value or return on investment., especially if you intend to live there for an extended period of time.

    I understand about the problems with moving the garage door. You could still improve the flow if you moved only the dining room entrance. Like this:




    pamlikeslabs thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
  • PRO
    last month

    As Diana above,/IN THE SAME footprint



    And she is correct, you do it for you, and not some imaginary. Add to that , no matter what, you plan to do it once.

    If you are ONE COOK, ALONE? above is fine. But anyone helping you is going to be tight. bumping fannies at cook and any clean as you go, so maybe a prep sink at the nook end of that island.

    Do you want hood. or micro above cook as you now have....? Cook top or range? Double ovens could go where "storage " is


    In the end? As with all kitchens? Depends want/NEED and budget, and how YOU live and entertain.




    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month


    Wow! Thank you so much for all the ideas. Like so many things in life, it really seems to come down to balancing costs with function and enjoyment.

    Jan, I absolutely love this plan! That said, it does bring up a few challenges I’ll need to address. If we move the load-bearing wall a foot into the dining room, would the tray ceiling look unbalanced? Would it be a visual no-go? I also love the idea of extending the nook wall out two feet—it would solve so many issues! But, of course, it comes with its own challenges, like requiring exterior brickwork and roof modifications. Still, the added functionality would be fantastic!

    Thank you, Diana Biers. I spend a lot of time in the house—especially in the nook area—so I want to feel happy with it. Even if we decide on a "small" renovation, moving the doorway down could still improve the flow, even if I can’t address the garage wall.

    My husband and I usually take turns cooking, so the kitchen only needs to function for one of us at a time. We have four grown sons, though a couple are back home temporarily—yikes! We don’t entertain as much as we used to, and the house has quieted down, except during holidays and the occasional gathering.

    I’ve been exploring so many layouts, but none have felt just right. It’s nice to hear the problem is more about my kitchen’s poor design than me being indecisive or overly picky! I’ve been working on this for six months, with lots of eyeballs on it, but every plan seems to have at least one major issue. I was beginning to think I was just being too fussy!

  • last month

    Yes, currently, where the stove and microwave are, I’d like to replace the microwave with a hood for proper ventilation and relocate the microwave elsewhere. Right now, we only have recirculated air, not venting to the outside. Having the smoke alarm go off while cooking is always an added touch! The contractor said he could run the vent to the outside, but from everything I’ve read here, I know that longer vent runs arent ideal and I have my doubts whether feasible. That said, I also understand that downdraft venting isn’t a great option either. Issues!



  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    "Jan, I absolutely love this plan! That said, it does bring up a few challenges I’ll need to address. If we move the load-bearing wall a foot into the dining room, would the tray ceiling look unbalanced?

    Yes.......BUT!!!




    You need that tray??


    But that's a drywall ceiling issue. Assuming nothing/plumbing, just a couple recessed in the tray? You make the other side the same

    ".I also love the idea of extending the nook wall out two feet—it would solve so many issues! But, of course, it comes with its own challenges, like requiring exterior brickwork and roof modifications. Still, the added functionality would be fantastic!"

    I hear you!! BUT . You don't want to touch the patio doors , AND in some concept of symmetry? That stupidly symmetrical nook, was how the builder ruined the kitchen. You aren't even using it for the intended purpose : )

    Without speak from both sides of space on a resale? A family of five can't use it as a breakfast without a tight , tight squeeze

    IT IS the "nook and narrow" lol problem.

    Venting......it is important, and even a recirculating hood is better than you get from a microwave over a cook, but a relo to the dining room wall is a lot easier/

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    okay.............this is IT from me !!

    Pick a poison?

    Realize that nothing good happens in this kitchen unless the sink goes on the island. If is doesn't, you're screwed because of all the other limitations - garage entry and the nook, clearances shrink and I don't think you really get enough for the money

    all THREE below, need that foot from the dining room...I care less about tray ceilings.

    Best of all worlds.......bells and whistles below



    Way less money below , you get your sensible venting .

    To answer ? No you can't reverse sink to the other side on any of them: )

    someone will ask....: )

    RATHER THAN BUMP the nook out? What if you just add window?

    Ovens are the LEAST of my concern in any. Why? You set a timer and you walk away......you aren't "Rainman" watching the roast brown.

    For any guest coming in the front foyer door- this widens the invite to enter



    Or..........

    They're all better than what you have now, and any are better than some of your earlier stabs at a solution . JMHO You. need. a foot.: ) in any scenario

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Wowza, Jan! So much to think about. This definitely gives me options. I left a message for the contractor this afternoon and plan to ask about the bump-out and the possibility/cost of moving the dining room wall by a foot.

    The big question is whether the entire dining room wall can be moved. A structural engineer assessed what it would take to remove the part along the sink wall while leaving the 30-inch section near the stove side of the doorway. The stove wall (95") is structural and aligns with the great room roofline at that corner. If I push the wall out, that alignment wouldn’t match when you look up. Hopefully, this makes sense? I'll need to snap a picture.

    Jan, I know you've emphatically stated that I need that extra foot to make this work, BUT if moving the entire wall isn’t possible, could it still work (less ideally) if I do a long wall of narrow pantries or cupboards along the back laundry room wall? I know I must be pushing the limits with both your generosity and good will as well as with inches!!! I just keep thinking about darbuka's narrow 12" pantry in her kitchen and wondering if that would be an option as a last resort if the widening of the kitchen isn't feasible.

    I also noticed on the drawings that the entryway from the front entrance to the kitchen is 45" wide and not 42". Does that matter? It seems like inches do count so thought I'd mention.

    I like the idea of a pocket door to optionally close off the walkway to the laundry/mudroom/garage area. I know it would mainly remain open as that is an area I traverse multiple times a day but would be nice to block off when we have company for dinner.

    There are so many great ideas here to ponder! Thank you so much for all the time and energy you've dedicated to my kitchen plans. It's been incredibly helpful. I can’t begin to express my gratitude to you, Jan, and all the other posters who have generously shared their time and expertise—and all for free! So many people contributing their talents---thank you all. Whew!

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    KICHEN Life is clearances for COMFORT

    ( KEEP IN MIND? all those noted? are CABINET to cabinet. For real life 48 is really 46" as there is counter over hang to protect cabinet faces



    If you don't take the foot from the dining room? There is a 36" ISLAND and there is not one single stool: )

    An Island WITH A SINK is nicer with more depth,....

    There is NO point in a new kitchen with cramped clearances where you need them,

    If you look at the last two plans? I already cut pantry beck from 24 inches to 18" depth. Shallower than that I'd not go.

    Narrowing a door passage from your bedroom end? as part of a kitchen redo" I'd not get tangled in little weeds

    What you need to do? Get a very GOOD idea of what you want for major appliances . Why because they all have specs to be accommodated. ( sink and faucet are irrelevant at this point)

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    "SINCE I've purchased an induction RANGE......."

    _______________________________________________

    Well. Someone please shoot me?

    There's nothing wrong with a range, any variety. But in this kitchen? A cook top is actually better.

    Why ? Because you are virtually guaranteed to get two capacious drawers beneath it. Because in THIS kitchen, the current location of the fridge, which is first..... hideous, and second, inconvenient, is also a very useful spot for double ovens, or a single oven with storage above and below. An oven is a "walk away from it" cook method, not a stand and stir or saute . That's why!

    _______________________________________________

    A little walk down memory lane:

    A contractor and HIS cabinet source gave you this below, based on "I'm willing to knock a mudroom" ...........and no offense, but his plan sucks rocks. Making a meal and making a mess at the same time. Call it give up, with zero gain to anything plan



    ___________________________________________________________________

    __________________________________________________________________

    Then ?The always helpful and talented @ Buehl jumps in......

    But she, like anyone else at this point, does not have the full picture of the entire surrounding living area. But she's listening and does try to give the op more light, and a view to the BACK side of the house.


    Thats the thing we always ask for. Full context!!




    Houzz is lousing up the edit , so I'll continue in another comment below...........

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Haha, I appreciate you not holding back on your opinions about the various layouts I’ve proposed! Since the one sucks rocks I will give that a big no and scrap it. I’ve been waffling and hesitant to commit to any plan because they all seem to present challenges. I know most likely I will need to make some compromises with whatever plan I use unless I'm willing to put $$$ into structural work.

    I did buy a 36" refrigerator (the old one was hauled away so it's staying), and the induction range was delivered just before Christmas—it’s still in the garage and can be returned/exchanged if needed. So changing to a cooktop is possible. I opted for more budget-friendly appliances since I’m not much of a cook—I only cook because we need to eat! While my husband enjoys cooking, we both agreed to prioritize the $$ in cabinets, counters, and structural improvements instead.

    And yes, I wasn’t able to find my old threads. I had one thread about whether to tear down/open the wall (but hadn't thought about moving the wall) and another about kitchen layouts. Both had some excellent suggestions and opinions. The consensus seemed to be either to move my dining room walkway down further to make an L or to try to make a peninsula rather than having the island. Either way like Diana B mentioned all the walkways make it hard.

    Also, Jan, in your review of the sucks rocks layout, the great room is off of the dining room. The entrance/foyer is on the garage side. Not sure that matters for context.


    Thanks so much for all the continued advice!

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Last word: ( in crossing comments....

    (From the tidy sketch up above W/adjusted clearances in the one down below.)

    WE are two people, KIDS OUT and grown "with one kid home temporarily"

    "I only cook because we need to EAT"

    HUBBY ENJOYS cooking...

    "Life has quieted down, we don't entertain like we once did, outside of bigger holidays"

    "I'm sick of having the smoke detector go off with the lousy venting"

    "We each cook, but never at the SAME TIME."

    "I'd like more light" .......( wth are the curtains doing, covering the nook window? are the neighbors an ugly view?)

    Don't waste dollars. For the expense in huge wall adjustments? Use it for a dynamite FRIDGE, and get a subzero @ 3 times the price of junk that will die.

    Or...use some dollars to build in some great serving/storage spot in the dining room on the windowless wall!

    Stop agonizing. Go in every existing cupboard and drawer, prune and ditch all you do not really need for a lower entertaining, quieter life of grown children, more dining out and how you live now.........MOVE ON. Call the contractor with his bad kitchen planner back, and get going? Why? Because there is no such thing as "perfection" in the best of homes, people or life.

    Adjusted clearances below to ORIGINAL unforgiving aspects of the kitchen: ) and depth of 169"

    (only the clearances adjusted, not every drawer inch )

    Only one thing is universal to every kitchen:

    Keep people and traffic out of high use clean /cook/prep.

    Keep us posted.......: ) BOOKMARK your thread.!!!! DON'T BEGIN A NEW ONE.: )



    ORIGINAL.. that had the foot from the dining room


    OKAY..NOW YOU GO BACK AND READ ALL THAT.

    Get a head screwed on to current realities. ?

    You don't NEED a 200k kitchen , but the appliances? You are short changing the fridge. Go look at microwave drawers, Sharp makes all of them

    Ask yourself about a second OVEN.....? AND ON IT GOES.

    You are conflicted regarding need and want- the LOOK of luxury BEFORE what really matters.

    Why DOES JAN LIKE the plan above?

    It has no annoying corners turns will have no annoying seams and veining among other reasons : )

    and it is a gigantic upgrade from this......in every way possible




    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    I have not read the entire thread. So forgive me in advance; I am sure I am missing some pertinent information, in terms of your wants and needs for your kitchen. I have only skimmed the thread, looked at your current layout, and I understand that you are interested in a remodel. Exactly how extensive of a remodel, I am not sure. However, I did notice you mention that you would like more function in the kitchen, without necessarily breaking the bank.


    So as a possible alternative: Before you embark on the remodel, or perhaps in lieu of a major remodel - these would be my suggestions:


    1) Get a portable cooktop and put it on the counter to the left of the sink.


    2) Consider installing a second fridge, beverage fridge or regular fridge - under the counter to the right of the sink.


    Along these lines:




    Except - you don't have that corner, and you could potentially have a bit more counter space available on the left side of your sink. You would lose the drawers on the right side, with the installation of fridge. But you have a lot of cabinets in the kitchen, and could relocate items from those drawers. Maybe put some drawers and/or pullouts in some of the other cabinets.





    You can try this out with a portable cooktop - and then see if you need to/want to take it any further with installing one. You mention that you like induction / here is just one idea:


    https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-ICT-60-Double-Induction-Cooktop/dp/B01JCECBPQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_64?






    True confessions: I personally own a single-burner electric cooktop (coil) that I recently purchased from Amazon - for 13 bucks. It sits on my granite counter, to the left of my sink. I love it. Super convenient. I have a nice gas range on the wall across from the sink, it is directly across, no long walk. But I never use it. I only use the cooktop. I have some bamboo trivets. I keep one on the counter to place a hot pot, since I never put hot pots directly on the counter. I had a double burner cooktop- but mainly only used one burner, so I replaced it with the single burner. If I need more burners at any time, I have the gas stove.


    Having an additional fridge would make your life more convenient. You could store things that you use more frequently, right there in the prep zone, at your fingertips. In the meantime, you can leave everything else in your current kitchen as it is, in terms of placement and layout.


    Now, I don't know what cosmetic changes you are interested in making to the kitchen. Wood cabinetry is a classic that is for sure back en vogue - and it looks like you have good quality on your current cabinets. An LVP or a sheet vinyl or linoleum over the current tile floor could potentially save you the demo drama, as well as save your legs and back. I had old school linoleum in my former place, where I lived for 15 years. So soft, and easy to stand and walk around on; plus, very rarely did anything break if dropped and I use a lot of glass. In my current (new) place - I dropped my glass teacup (a cup I‘d had and enjoyed for 15 years) - I dropped it on the tile floor, and the glass shattered into a million pieces. Not only that - it really sounded like a missile had hit the kitchen!! :)

    pamlikeslabs thanked freedomplace1
  • last month

    Thank you for your post, Freedomplace. You've given me a lot to think about. Testing out a small induction plate above the dishwasher sounds like a simple and affordable idea .I'll check out the Cuisinart link you sent. While I’m still considering my layout, I can give it a try. It’ll also be useful once renovations begin. I actually have an induction range sitting in my garage right now, but if I decide to go with a cooktop as Jan suggests, I guess I'll have to deal with the hassle of returning it. Costco will be so thrilled to see me coming! My husband won't be super thrilled either! :)

    For the most budget-friendly update, I like the idea of adding an extra fridge along that wall. However, I’m already planning some bigger updates: replacing the flooring (I’ve already purchased it to unify the downstairs with one type of flooring), updating the counters, and taking the cabinets all the way to the ceiling.

    When we moved in nearly 20 years ago, we did a cosmetic update to the counters and cabinets, thinking it would be a short stay. Well, here we are, still in the same house—and we don't plan on moving. Now that I have some new ideas to improve the functionality of the kitchen, I’m excited to move forward and finalize the layout. Thank you so much again!

  • last month

    You’re welcome! Happy New Year and all the Best!! :)

    pamlikeslabs thanked freedomplace1
  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    There's potentially mind blowing amount of storage in this kitchen for someone who cooks to stay alive?: )

    I could have written a couple novels while finding ways of avoiding doing all my pre tax time dreaded deeds.....and/or things like this versus the dreaded.

    Not even showing the pantry available in what was the fridge space.

    ( ignore the island , left off a drawer base as I was on the phone )



    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Wow, Jan! Your renderings are absolutely awesome! They’ve completely reignited my excitement for my kitchen renovation—something I was starting to lose interest in because of the layout issues. Seeing these ideas makes me think a better-planned kitchen might even make me enjoy cooking.

    I’m so grateful for all the time and advice you’ve given me. A few things I need to decide:

    1. Microwave Drawer: My husband isn’t thrilled with the idea. He says he doesn’t want to be looking down to heat his coffee, leftovers, etc. Given that we’re a tall family (I’m the “short one” at 5’9”), and we have a couple of our tall boys back home (temporarily?!), do you think that should make me reconsider the microwave drawer?
    2. Range vs. Cooktop: Should I consider returning the range and switching to a cooktop? If so, I assume I’d need to relocate the oven to where the current refrigerator is, which might also require a landing spot nearby. That would probably affect the refrigerator location too. Do you think it’s worth the hassle to make this change, or should I stick with the range? I really love the idea of a pantry in that spot if I keep the range.
    3. Measurements: Good news! The measurement from the dining room wall across to the back wall with the desk area is actually 171", not 169". So, I have an extra 2 inches to work with for clearances and such.

    Thanks again for your patience and guidance! (Thinking of splurging on a SZ fridge since I'll be saving money on the structural budget.)

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I think there is NO need to return the range! At first blush, my concern was storage and the bonus of drawers beneath it ( seems you have plenty in these renderings?! ...But you also have to consider what you or hubby like to cook/eat. Some people regularly need two ovens! Some have nearly abandoned theirs for an air fryer. Plenty pf folks just use a Breville on the counter or similar if they need a second oven and that is usually a holiday issue.

    As to the bend down for a micro, it's directly below the counter top and not much different than reaching into a deeper flatwear drawer , but that's up to you.

    You can tweak the fridge wall.....and do this, and it's above the counter. You simply turn around and either cook wall or island is right there for a set down.



    You Can add it to the cook wall.............but the PENALTY is a 36 inch opening to dining room versus the 60 " of more view and light.: ) because you don't want to crowd a cook top area which is also prep space.

    You can also take the formerly dysfunctional desk wall and make it a breakfast/anything wall.

    All those lower drawers are as simple as pie for DW unload, Up onto the island counter, and stow on that side . ! It's the biggest WASTE of real estate in the kitchen. Make it everything breakfast! A wall micro is 400 bucks. Have a second! built right in. The sizes don't change.New ones do convection and other tricks for more bucks. Beverage drawers milk, juice, whatever .

    All those plastic ugly running bottles with straws....? Over here?

    The point in this wall? It isn't the most useful wall, once you get the sink and cook venting where they make the most sense . Make it useful.!! Turn around and there's your perch for morning at the island or at a table looking out the darn slider and window. The coffee, and toaster aren't taking up cook area real estate and there's no reason to hide that which is a daily necessity.







    I would definitely not change fridge locale and I am trying to keep the OLD fridge locale as more pantry space. (Good for not much else ). If you NEED a second oven on a wall? It would go there and you just carefully trek to island for set down. Sink, Fridge and Cooktop locations are the most important in this rather challenging.....kitchen?

    It's hip thigh and why appliance drive the rest.

    That's why you also look in those drawers and cupboards for what you use most often, and what you never use at all. : )

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    When do you even sleep, Jan? I feel like I’ve just taken a three-day master class in kitchen design! So much awesome info. I think most of my layout questions have been answered, but I do have one more :):

    Should I absolutely go with a 36" base cabinet for the sink, or would a 30" or 33" be better to give me a few extra inches of prep space? Any thoughts on that?

    I can’t thank you enough for all your help and guidance—so much appreciation!

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    The other thing you might want to consider ( micro ) is......this? And a bit less opening to dining room - not a deal breaker



    and also consider....HOW MUCH you really need in storage and maybe make that desk wall have a "view"? and some ART?



    Or Fridge/freeze



    Putting some breakfast /snack components along with drink is nice near a patio exit....and nobody in the cooks way or whomever got stuck with clean up.

    Only you know is the answer to what's best for you. .

    Me? I cook and eat and CLEAN up at blinding speed and efficiency. I loathe cleaning up after a fantastic ( if I say so myself ) meal. I have a galley and two can not share it. My toaster is in the pantry for once a week use. I would ABSOLUTELY DIE without my George Forman grill, the cheapie with removal grill plates and no temp control. Fantastic for a strip steak, chicken thighs, salmon, lollipop lamb chops. (I keep a spare in the basement lest it die lol )

    I can roast a chicken, make a big salad, some rice, pull that chicken out of the oven, carve it up on the spot. Take what I want for the meal, get rid of all carcass, stow the remaining poultry , wash the 9 x 13 dish, all before I eat, .....and when done eating? All I do is rinse my plate, the wine glass, and utensils and into the D.W. Finito! and the kitchen looks like nobody was ever in it.

    I don't use a dish drainer, never have. Hate sink side "do it later". That's what the D.W is for. A big pot? Soap, a scrubbie , quick wipe dry and back where it goes, AS it is used and before the meal. Call me neurotic, and possibly due to I work from home. A mess anywhere is distracting.

    Everyone is different. ........You Know You.

    You can't change the house to an open concept . The great room isn't wide open to the kitchen and never will be. That doesn't mean you can not love the kitchen or the house: ) !


    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    God Bless George Forman!!!!......and yup, now and then I do use the oven: ) roast a chicken every Sunday in winter or.....fat pills. Girls gotta eat and life is short.





    PERFECT strip steak, 4min, 45 sec rare

    same with Lollipop lamb chops.

    !0/10 min for thighs bone in w/skin flip half way

    and it's a love affair: )


    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    last month

    Believe it or not? You can get a fantastic sink, to fit in as little as 30" CABINET. It's less about the sink size, than the additional storage: )

    Just remember the garbage disposal is under there too, so you DEFINITELY want an air switch button on the counter top for that. Easy peasy. No it doesn't ruin the look of a counter top.

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    I used to have a George Foreman grill and absolutely loved it! I guess it got lost in the move... 20 years ago! I’m hoping that with a new, modern microwave, I can streamline things and get rid of a few small appliances. When I am home and sitting, I spend most of my time in the nook so having the coffee bar/microwave would be convenient.

    Also, I forgot to mention the kitchen ceiling—no soffits, just 8 ft ceilings everywhere except in the nook.

    If venting to the outside were equally easy on either the dining wall or the laundry wall, would that make a difference in your design recommendations? Would you see any advantage with moving the cooking area to the back wall and having the coffee bar/beverage area closer to the dining room? It might be a completely moot point, but I thought I’d ask just in case.:) . I need to get an updated quote from the contractor and get a movin'.

  • PRO
    last month

    Nope...........!!


    I can't imagine that this is easier venting

    I loathe the current locale of fridge. .....so over here?


    At some point you'll make yourself crazy : )

    And locating a cook on the former desk wall? Can' love that, but that's me and it really put that darn fridge back to the spot i hate?


    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Thanks again, Jan. Noted!


    I will stick with larger opening into the dining room to gain as much light as possible. Microwave on 95" wall with refrigerator. Done!

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @pamlikesslabs

    Check this thread out..... a reno on a tight budget and a tornado: )

    There's virtually nothing that can't be BETTER by a lot, and budgets determine how much better.

    https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/6450924/reconfiguring-kitchen-on-a-budget#29342857

    Houzzers forget what they commented on, so it's nice when folks come back with results after we beat them to death for the feet and the inches.

    By the way and given the light you so want? Make sure you account for it....while you're making the mess.

    Even a broadly day lit kitchen is dark in the dark of night.

    (x is under cabinet wherever it shall make sense in final cabinetry layout)



    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Thank you, Jan, for this lighting plan! Our island pendant light has been driving us nuts—no dimmer, and the bulbs are way too bright. We could switch the bulbs to something softer, but one of my boys bumped his head and cracked the glass cover on one, so we can’t even get to the bulb without risking the cover breaking. The little things! Knowing we were planning to renovate, we've just been living with it. Amazing what you can tolerate without realizing it---until you make the change.

    I love the look of stylish pendants over an island, but with low ceilings, would that create too much visual clutter?

    The link you sent--what a beautiful kitchen. Huge improvement with layout, function, space and pathways. Love it. Gives me hope! :)

    So grateful for all of the help.

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Stay far away in pendants, from clear glass, from totally open shades......!! A pendant with a solid shade will force the light DOWN onto counter where you need it to cut/slice/dice! At the right height and number it isn't "visual clutter" .and should relate to a dining table fixture,

    But...you CAN do three recessed over the island.

    It has gotten to be an absurd problem......all of them: ( I've used this again just recently. She has eye issues and can't do any glare)

    does exactly what we want.


    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Thank you, Jan!

    I’m trying to get myself organized so I can have all the details ready for the contractor to provide an updated quote. Here are a few questions I’m wrestling with:

    1. Island Extension: Is there any way to extend my island to 90"? My husband has a large Boos block that we currently tuck behind a cabinet in the dining room. I’d love to create a slot for it in the island. I’d also like to maximize counter space to have a 42" prep area on the island to the right of the sink.Could I do two seats in an L-shape near the fridge/pantry? Or would that be too tight for clearances and pathways?
    2. Dishwasher Placement: Does it make sense to put the dishwasher on the left side of the sink so that, when open, it doesn’t block the path to the fridge? Or is that not a big deal?
    3. Range Wall: I’m thinking of a 30" range with 36" drawers on each side to make up the 108". I think the original plan you shared had smaller drawers, but I need to review.
    4. Pendants: Would two or three pendants work best? (I love the one you sent!)
    5. Beverage Fridge: I’m still debating whether to include a beverage fridge along the desk wall. We have another frig/freezer in our garage. Maybe just a personal choice. Luxury vs necessity. (I'm pretty practical!)
    6. Cabinetry and Counters: I’ve decided on my floors but am debating between a cream/wood cabinetry mix or keeping all wood. I have a lot of black walnut harvested from my dad’s farm in Iowa, and I’d love to incorporate it—maybe for counters or as trim on the hood. However, most cabinet makers and woodworkers I’ve spoken to aren’t interested in using it; they prefer to use their own materials. Is it worth continuing to search for someone who will use it or move on from that idea?

    Thanks again for your advice and help—I really appreciate it! Making some headway.

  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Island Extension: Is there any way to extend my island to 90"? My husband has a large Boos block that we currently tuck behind a cabinet in the dining room. I’d love to create a slot for it in the island. I’d also like to maximize counter space to have a 42"

    ______________

    Answer: It would have to slide 6 inches toward the microwave wall or you will tale a hip off when you head to the slider with a tray of meat or veggies from the cook wall.

    ____________________

    Range wall: FINE!!

    _________________

    PENDANTS: I think 2 on 84/90 is plenty. It's size and style dependent

    _________________________

    Bev fridge and little luxuries are just that. Appliance choice to be accommodated in the CABINET design and layout fro the beginning

    ____________________

    Finishes and counter tops and flooring are personal and simply need to harmonize well and contrast attractively. Wood on counter, wood stain cabinets and wood on floor..........and you WANT MORE LIGHT??? Or a cabin in the deep woods? : )

    Harvested wood has to be "cooked". Literally.

    You are at stage 1 of a multi step plan. Go online and look at wood stain kitchen , painted....etc. You have to inspire you, and then interpret the inspiration to suit you and YOUR kitchen.

    A painted soft white perimeter would be lovely with a wood stain island......and yes trim on a hood.

    There are a zillion options.

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Thank you for your response! Apologies for the delay—my kitchen plans got derailed for a few days. You make a good point about the walnut; if I'm concerned about light in my kitchen, it might not be the best choice. Noted—I'll move on from that idea! 😊

    As for the refrigerator wall, I'm still debating between keeping my current inexpensive fridge or upgrading to a Sub-Zero. Argh! Does the placement of the refrigerator along the wall impact functionality, or is it primarily an aesthetic decision? I'm wondering about counter space—if I move the refrigerator closest to the dining room entry, it would give me a longer run of counter space between it and the pantry. Or I could put it in the middle of the wall. I added a photo below of this (not the desk area) . Bad idea?

    Another idea I'm considering is adding a second garbage pullout along that wall. Would that be overkill? Like you said, I think I'll have enough cabinetry. Working on inventorying now. I'm wondering if having two 12" garbage cabinets would work? It might give me more prep space on my island along with squeezing in an extra drawer.

    Appreciate the ongoing advice and guidance.


  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    " Does the placement of a fridge affect functionality"?

    Well. yes. Any fridge , working and right size, will COOL/freeze the darn food and for how long? There is luck involved.. Ideally its doors or door fully OPEN, ( not banging a wall ) ideally it is a short trek to a sink where food is prepped to cook. Meat, produce washing , thawing.

    Yours is currently located inconveniently, and in an awkward ugly spot in a high traffic locale.

    Which fridge? Sub Zero will outlast all others. That is simply fact.Do you want to clad it and make it disappear visually? Or leave it be as stainless in any old fridge. It will forever affect the cabinet above, as the SZ is 84" tall, not 72. Compressor is TOP.



    Garbage/RECYCLE.

    You don't need two. Where is your PULLOUT now? I don't see it.

    How often do you want to take it out to the yonder? You make garbage and trash and recycle ......where you prep and COOK. In here? That is island and cook wall.

    Back to this: Zones 1, 2, 3, 4 and a 60" open for light and whatever you want for the dining spot at patio slider.



    1 Call it the stupid spot A. Good for a pantry, good for a second oven if you really need it....Or port of "last resort"....a 36 "counter height dumping ground, w/cabinet and drawers below or a stool . Note I said last resort, but you know your HABITS for mail and phone charging etc..

    2 ......................A WALL ( stupid wall B) . NOT good for cook, or fridge. Is good for keeping people out of your cook /prep where you don't actually do much, as YOU cook to stay alive. Coffee. drink bar. etc

    3/4 Cook, prep, wash, clean up, dispose, cool, freeze, You are NOT slicing, dicing, chopping, anything on wall 4. ......because that is happening in zone 3.

    Last..........

    Nobody here knows your eating habits. Nobody knows what or how MUCH pantry you need. How "much" of anything.

    Kitchens are appliance driven. Each appliance has its specs and space and clearance requirements. You need to get firm on them. Which means deciding between what you have and are used to, versus what you w,a.n.t.

    https://signaturekitchens.com/blog/4-reasons-a-subzero-refrigerator-is-the-best/

    Me? I want this sucker to hold two back to back cans, that each take a 13 gallon tall plastic bag. The end. One is plenty unless you have six kids. It goes OUT every day unless you are lazy.



    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Thank you, Jan, for your continued help and advice. I've attached a plan (on my quilting board!) with the island extended to 90 inches long. I’ve also narrowed the back "wasted" wall (Stupid wall B.haha). While a beverage refrigerator would be nice, it isn’t a top priority—I’d rather give that up to ensure better clearances around the island.

    I know you’re not a fan of storage narrower than 18 inches, but I still think having some narrow storage on the back wall would be useful for us. When you mentioned adding art to the back wall, it got me thinking—it might seem a bit unconventional, but my husband spends a lot of time standing and prepping meals and likes to have the TV on. I’m considering centering a small Frame TV on that wall, surrounded by cabinets or shelves. The TV could display family photos or art when not in use. I could also include a narrow counter for a coffee station. Or am I making Wall B even more stupid?

    Another option I’ve considered is eliminating the mudroom to extend the storage and make the area more open ? Stupid Wall A extending back in mudroom. Trying to finalize the layout.

    Oh, and lo and behold, I found my old posts! For some reason, I couldn’t locate them on my computer, but when I used the app on my phone yesterday, there they were! Looking back and reviewing them, it’s clear my ideas have evolved quite a bit. So many posters were trying to help me based on my initial parameters when I was focused on keeping the island completely free. Now that I understand my kitchen would be more functional with a sink in the island I've let go of the idea of keeping it clear.



  • PRO
    last month

    THE HELP IS FREE........

    I see ZERO reason to eliminate a mudroom ! ALL that will happen is a fire door in your face. It won't feel a part of the kitchen.

    You haven't firmly decided appliances and at some point you have to realize there will be lighter, there will be more efficient, there will be more function, but you can reinvent wheels and keep reinventing until you have YOUR kitchen for another three years.

    Orient the same way as something prior so we can see what you want? , Print what you want on graph paper, : ) 1/4 inch to a foot.

    There is also NO point the very SHALLOW BACK WALL and in a kitchen like this, on that side? a 42 inch clearance is fine . I will be.storage.$$$$ which will be as costly as a better depth. HAVE A TV! I ON THE WALL ! FINE!



    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Ok, so only structural work will be to widen the doorway to dining room. Decision made. WIll leave mudroom alone. I see what you mean about the garage door opening into the area if I got rid of the mudroom. Might be an awkward space. I’m planning for an 18-inch garbage pullout to the left of my sink(current garbage can is hidden behind the island nearest the nook), with the dishwasher on the right, and I’m hoping to squeeze in an 18-inch cabinet at the end. Also changed the coffee bar/frame tv wall to 18" cabinet depth as advised! Thank you again for your valuable help. When I started this kitchen layout dilemma back in May, I thought I might have a new, updated kitchen by the holidays. Yet here I am, still debating it all in mid-January! At least I can say I didn't make any rash decisons. Ha!

    Below is my tentative plan- Rats---Sorry the smaller one is in the wrong orientation and I'm not computer savvy enough to fix it.



  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    A thousand hours later............



    where is the darn microwave GOING? There is no such thing as a microwave at 1000 watts that is 24 inches wide. You need 30"

    what do you want the wall ( 95") to look like? No matter WHICH fridge? You need a 1/2" each side for HOUSING, so that it shall appear built in, not black or stainless when seen from the side..........!!!!

    Even this basic Home Depot fridge is e.n.cl.o.s.e.d, and only the doors are proud of that housing

    ( in that pic, that is a good look for the pantry at the MUD entry....)



    You want this?? and what do you want the storage at right to look like



    Or do you want THIS? ( below) AND THE "SET DOWN" SPACE.

    ALLL MICROWAVE ON WALL OPEN THE SAME WAY

    ( has been duly noted that hubby will not use the very convenient and very nice looking DRAWER option



    Are the inches from dining entry to mud entry......180 inches or something other?

    Do you go out to grill at the slider? Check what that clearance will be

    The drawer bases at both sides of 30 inch range......do you have any idea what they will hold? How many pots and pans do you use in a week of cooking? ( where you don't really cook )

    A TWO drawer base cabinet to the side of cook? At 36 wide? I bet you can't fill it!!



    Where DO YOU WANT to unload a dish washer? You open the door. the stem and drink ware goes in uppers to left/right of range hood. the pots if in the dw.....right there in drawers.

    What about plates, bowls etc....Left of range...in the DRAWERS

    ? Or with a slide across the island to the STUPID wall?



    What is going in this cabinet to the right of WHATEVER microwave placement??



    What is my point here? That at SOME point only you can decide. I told you what to do. You go through the cabinets that have been in place for 20 years......... AND YOU ASK YOURSELF,:

    What do I use in here, and how often

    Where do I want to put it? IF I do in fact........USE IT?

    THAT'S THE PART YOU KNOW....and we do not.

    You are too used to inconvenience or you are not? If not inconvenient? You'd replace what you now have Or I am insane.

    What is on the far from everything stupid wall? Do there need to be ANY upper cabinets on that 112" wall? What size tv? if a tv?

    ( any smart tv can be ART, btw, there are apps for that)

    So.....the rest is up to you.

    GET THE CONTRACTOR, HIS CABINET SOURCE.....( I am assuming ) and get going. It's you and YOUR kitchen.: )

    Before you do that? Get it PRUNED to what you use on a two week basis, first. Plan that there will be stuff on your curb lol

    You are the decider, what and where......and WHAT appliances in the available inches


    And decide fridge, once and for all: )SZ or other, clad or not clad




    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • last month

    Ha! Your layout and drawings are definitely more detailed than mine! Sadly, from the dining room entry to the back of the stupid walls, it’s only 171 inches—not 180. That really impacts the clearances around the island. I think the 180 might have come from when I was considering adding a foot from the dining room? I’ve measured and measured again, and it’s definitely 171 inches. I tried to attach one of plans you sent me with you using 169" but I can't seem to attach. Technical issues again. You gave me 42" clearances on each side of the island.


    I’ve thought through my storage and done an inventory, so I’m confident I’ll have plenty of room. All of my dish and/glass/ pots/pans will go along the range wall. I’m debating whether to do one long, skinny drawer above the deeper drawers or split it into two 18-inch drawers above the deeper ones. Definitely need a top drawer on each side for spices/potholders and utensils.

    Along the 95-inch wall, I plan to have the refrigerator, followed by the microwave. (I assumed a counter microwave was 24 inches, as shown in the below photo. This is the look I’m going for---just a shelf but not on the range wall like this shows. ) Maybe that is too small. We currently have a 30" over the range. Perhaps my husband will need to relent on this detail and give in to the drawer.


    Back Bay Brownstone · More Info

    On the right end of that wall, I plan to do drawers in the base cabinet with a tall glass cabinet above it to give a built-in look. Maybe similar to this below.


    Boulder Remodel Home: Approachable Elegance · More Info



    I’ve also been considering adding glass cabinets flanking the TV on the stupid wall. I don’t want too much (or maybe any?) glass, but I feel like a little bit somewhere in the kitchen could be a nice touch.


    Visiting the cabinetmaker tomorrow for a look see. Big girl steps!


    Thank you so much...again!


  • PRO
    last month
    last modified: last month

    It shall depend what you put in the microwave: )



    And depends what you want to the right. If you just want more counter top as your picture, up to you.

    Draw it, elevate it.....and REMEMBER your fridge is on the left. I was balancing that with the far right side,if you want more counter top, fine.

    It's your kitchen, make you happy, not us.

    pamlikeslabs thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    last month

    This is why precise measurements are so important. I think I mentioned it in my previous post (11 days ago) that the numbers didn't add up.

    You really need to draw it with accurate measurements in order to plan the room. As Jan always says, feet and inches.

    pamlikeslabs thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
Sponsored
EA Home Design
Average rating: 5 out of 5 stars73 Reviews
Loudoun County's Trusted Kitchen & Bath Designers | Best of Houzz
Best of Houzz 2025: The results are in!