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jennifer_hogan285

What does a modern kitchen need?

3 months ago

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately. We have not changed the "requirements" for kitchens since the 1950s when the work triangle was created.

My mom cooked 3 meals a day for a crowd. Dinners often served more than 15 people. She baked bread and cakes and pies and prepared beef roasts or baked 4 or more chickens at a time and made large cassoroles or big pots of soup. She had a double oven and 2 microwaves and a 6 burner stove with a griddle and she used all of those things pretty much every day. She had a full size refrigerator and a full size freezer in the kitchen with additional cold food storage in the basement and laundry room. My mom lived in her kitchen.


We don't cook like that anymore. Women work at a job all day and don't spend hours in the kitchen every day.


Curious - in a given week what cooking appliances do you use?

I use my sous vide several times a week, I steam veggies in my steamer several times a week in the summer when fresh produce is more available. I use my slow cooker about once every two weeks in the winter when I want beef roasts and soups and comfort foods. I use my air fryer and microwave every day. I use my oven about once a month and use one of the 6 burners on my stove most days. I hardly ever use more than 2 burners.


Are we designing kitchens for how we cook or for how our mother's cooked?


Comments (59)

  • 3 months ago

    My kitchen is proportional for the size of the 4-bedroom house, large for the 2 people in the house, but a perfect size when we have guests and larger groups. It was designed for the larger groups. Any future younger family who owns it would also make good use of it

    I still remember hosting 80 people in my first house. It was a 3,500 sq.ft house, but nearly all those people attempted to stand in the kitchen! It was like my dining room and family room had police crime tape around them and no one would enter! I have always had larger kitchens after that first one.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked chispa
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    I view my kitchen as a work space and not a socializing one, so my interest is in a good floor plan, appliances I need and want and great storage. I have a combo microwave and convection oven, a wall oven with convection, a five burner cooktop, and a Tovala small oven / air fryer. This combination of tools gives me the greatest flexibility for the kind of cooking I do when I want to do it, and at this point I wouldn’t want to give that up. The proximity to guests is my least favorite thing about it. We have always had separate kitchens until this house which is more open plan, divided from the main living area only by a bar. In our old house we served drinks in the living room, dinner in the dining room and dessert and coffee in the library. Basically I moved the evening — and the guests— along so that we didn’t stay in one room for more than an hour and the seating groups varied in each room. I hate cooking or plating or garnishing platters with people hanging around asking questions or just generally getting in the way!

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Kswl
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  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    My Kitchen is perfect for how we lived when the kids (2) were home and for how we live now as empty nesters. I designed it myself (with a lot of help when the Kitchens Forum was on GardenWeb) and we still love it over 16 years later!

    It works for two people and worked for 12 Girl Scouts earning their Cooking badge!

    It's set up so the Prep & Cooking Zones are separated from the Cleanup Zone, which is helpful since cleanup and DW unloading often happens at the same time as prepping & cooking. (We both work outside the home, so things sometimes get pushed to the next day if it's late.)

    I cook most dinners at home and we make our lunches most days. (Interestingly, we used to eat out a lot more b/f COVID. We stopped eating out during the peak of COVID and while we eat out a bit more now, we never went back to eating out as often as before. We hadn't realized how much money we were spending on restaurants!)


    So, what major appliances do I use routinely? I use most routinely, no "wasted" space due to unused appliances.

    • Double oven - one most days, the 2nd a couple of times a week. I'm really grateful for that 2nd oven when it's needed!
    • Refrigerator - daily (obviously!)
    • Cooktop (induction) - Most days. it's 36"; I could probably live with 30" most times, but when I'm making some dishes, the extra space between burners is welcome.
    • Warming Drawer - most days (the key is that it's located next to my cooktop in the "middle drawer" position. If it was under my ovens where my KD originally wanted it, I would likely not use it much. (Yep, I overruled her often! My Kitchen, my design!))
    • DW - loaded daily, run every other day or so. (Used to be daily when the kids were home.)
    • MW Drawer - daily


    Small appliances?

    • Daily - electric tea kettle, coffee machine
    • Frequently - can opener
    • Occasionally - mixer, blender, toaster, waffle iron, slow cooker, toaster oven (primarily as an "air fryer") All except mixer & toaster oven are stored in cabinet drawers since they're not used often.
    Jennifer Hogan thanked Buehl
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    I designed my own kitchen with the help of a kitchen designer about 15 years ago. After watching my elderly mom struggle with accessing their lower cabinets, every lower cabinet in my kitchen has only pull out drawers. For dishes, silverware, cooking utensils, pots, skillets, etc etc.


    I had the kitchen desk eliminated, as it had quickly become a junk stack for whatever my family wanted me to deal with. I had a tall pantry cabinet built in its place, with all pull-out shelves. Love it!


    I love to cook and bake and so I had a double oven installed. Both upper and lower have regular, convection and warming settings. I use them all a lot! Above them I have a cabinet with upright dividers to hold my trays, baking sheets, cupcake pan, etc etc. And below them, I have a large pull out drawer that holds my casserole and baking dishes, etc etc.


    We have beautiful mountain views and so I had one and a quarter walls installed with windows half way up to enjoy it all. I had automatic blinds installed over them. Not for privacy, because we have a lot of our own land out there, but for sun control. In one corner of our kitchen, under the windows I had a large double sink put in. I quickly realized, though, that although it had great storage under it, I was constantly losing things in there. So I had a light installed in it!


    I had an eating peninsula put in to divide our family room from the kitchen, so that I could see and chat with my family while cooking. And instead of a thin wall below the peninsula, I had cabinets built to hold things on both sides of it for extra storage.


    On the kitchen side of the peninsula, I have my prep area. A drawer microwave under the counter to the left. Drawers to hold measuring cups, spoons, aluminum foil, ziploc bags, parchment paper, etc right below where I work. To the right I have a fitted drawer that holds my kitchen knives, etc etc. Below that is my pull out double trash can drawer. This all helps keep me organized . . . and very happy!

    Jennifer Hogan thanked LynnNM
  • 3 months ago

    I designed my kitchen 13 years ago. I enlarged the single window into a triple window because of the views, and took out the claustrophobic twin pantries. I turned the laundry room into the pantry. From the entry to the kitchen from the family room, I have: refrigerator, baking center (drawers with baking essentials, and boxed wraps), the KA mixer in a door, silverware in drawer, glasses above, with other bakeware next to that), then DW, sink, and drawers with towels and washclothes, the prep space over that, in front of window. Turn the corner, then 36" range with griddle, and on the left, spice drawer, large cooking vessels, and manuals in the top drawer. Cookbooks and catt treats above.


    I now use the airfyer as much as possible, and I almost never bake. My bespoke island turned into an antique table with a shelf below, and yes, I have to wash the pots and bowls that are stored there before I use them. I still LIKE having them there. I miss my copper pots hanging, but there is NO place for that.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Springroz
  • 3 months ago

    To me the most important thing in kitchen design is efficiency. A friend stayed overnight with us this week, and every time she looked for something in the kitchen - silverware, a water glass, potholder, whatever - it was in the first place she looked, because it was logical. A good kitchen storage plan helps determine what kind of storage is needed where.

    Efficiency also means good use of the space you have. I have pullouts over the fridge, so even at 5'4" I can reach what's up there. I have drawers deep enough to store cake pans on their sides, not stacked. Super susans or easy-reach cabinets in corners (unless the best corner solution is two sets of drawers around an empty corner, as was the case in my last kitchen).

    The small appliances we use most are a rice cooker, large crock pot, toaster, and MW. The Kitchenaid mixer lives on the counter, only because it is too heavy to lug around; the MW is in the corner, and the other often-used small appliances are in drawers. Waffle iron and instant pot are in the pantry.

    We just this week finished a kitchen remodel, which was preceded by the installation of new hardwood floors in the kitchen and great room, so we've been without a kitchen since the beginning of August. Hubby can do just anything on the grill, from typical grilling meat and vegetables to browning burger (in a cast-iron frying pan) to baking pizza and casserole. The only thing we haven't had during the remodel is pasta.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked AnnKH
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    On the counter space issue. Most smaller kitchens don't have enough, in my view. But what can you do about it? Its a small kitchen.

    One idea is to get everything off the counter. Why is that microwave or toaster oven taking up 3 precious square feet of counter? Move it to a shelf or cabinet. Similarly with other appliances. Nothing may "live" on the counter.

    Another idea is to go vertical with the counters, like Star Trek's three dimensional chess. What you could do is have a baker's rack that holds full or half sheet pans, do your prep on sheet pans, and slide each sheet pan into the rack to make room on the counter for the next dish you need to prep. Suppose you have 10 half sheet pans in the rack, that is like an extra 17.5 sq ft of counter or the equivalent of an additional 9 linear feet of base cabinet. 10 full sheet pans would be 32.5 sq ft or 16 linear feet. But full sheet pans are a bit unwieldy, I think.

    I have done #1 in my work-in-progress kitchen, and will try #2 when I have my island built. We'll see if it works.



    Jennifer Hogan thanked John Liu
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    It's long so you may not want to invest your time.

    Has it really changed all that much? Or have the changes that it has undergone been changes that actually make any sense? I am not so sure the answer to either question is a resounding "yes".

    Kitchens have gotten bigger and bigger, and more and more expensive, and have fancier appliances in them, but the fancier the kitchen, the less day-to-day cooking that seems to go on there. I have been to functions a number of times at a 13,000 sq ft house with a large kitchen, two bar areas, and a small kitchen and a kitchenette adjacent to the basement bar area, and have never eaten anything made in either one of them. The first wife came with a mother who was relegated to free servant who did the cooking among other things, so it got used on a daily basis for meals that could have been prepared in a small kitchen with the conventional work triangle. When they had parties under the first wife's supervision, they were fully catered--by a kitchen brought lock stock and barrel from the catering company who set up camp in the garage. The second wife always gets take out and doesn't even take it out of the foil containers and dumps it on the dining room table with Chinet plates. You might get a really fork and knife. And yet she just completely redid the kitchen again.

    The other type of kitchen like this seems to be used for cooking as spectacle where it all has to take place during the function and everyone has to be impressed by the whole thing. And they could not possibly eat like that every night of the week, because they wouldn't have time to do anything else.

    I tend to think that in most of America, the more ordinary the kitchen, the more likely it is to be used in the way that a kitchen is actually supposed to be used. To store food, to cook in, and to clean up afterward.

    If I sound skeptical and cantankerous in the first two paragraphs of the answer, it is because I am, particularly because of how doctrinaire a number of the old-time Kitchen Forum members used to be back in the day, particularly the people who had an opinion about every query posted.

    The last time I posted anything about my kitchen was years ago, because we moved into this house 11 years ago and I did the first serious planning of the kitchen starting about 8 years ago, at which time I feel like I got a lot of flack, and then when it was clear I wasn't going to conform, I actually made a post or two that literally no one answered.

    Anyway, our kitchen, when we moved in, was 7'2'' wide and 10'6" long. There are islands as big.

    The maximum amount it could be expanded width wise was about 4". The longest it could be made was about 30". So 7'6" x 13'. And this would be the largest kitchen we have ever had. I was told at the outset that this was not a kitchen that anyone who was a "serious cook" could function in.

    Well I said, I my SO trained and worked as a chef, was an executive pastry chef at an upper tier restaurant who had been profiled in the paper and had a name on the menu. And had done production baking and breadmaking at one time or another.

    Well that's why you can have something so dysfunctional and ordinary they said, professional chefs aren't Interested in cooking at home, they don't bring their work home like anyone else, they they are too tired. Well, I said. my SO is no longer a professional, has a corporate job, still cooks multiple times a week, and does a Ton of baking. And had about 4 feet of counterspace allotted to making bread and multiple rotating desserts in the restaurant kitchen so is used to doing Everything very compactly and efficiently. And I grew up having to cook dinner a couple night of week because my mother had worked at least part time since 1964. And we make meals, we get take out or delivery approximately --Never. And I make lunch to take to work. We eat out once a week like clockwork.

    Anyway everyone still needs a refrigerator, a range or cooktop and oven, a sink, usually a DW and a microwave and some sort of countertop oven.

    We currently have:

    A open burner gas cooktop c. 1955. No electronics at all. You can take it apart and clean it. You can adjust anything with a screw driver. I got this on purpose.

    An electric/convection oven. --Separate in a small kitchen? Yes.

    An ordinary microwave which gets used to cook some vegetables, and possibly heat a leftover.

    A Breville. This was our only oven sometimes when the electronics in the cheap stove that came with the house decided to not work, off an on. My SO could accomplish pretty much anything on a cheap stove and in that oven if it was working. But it's probably from knowing a lot about cooking in ovens without relying on timers, and absolute temperature control, and knowing what to do when. . So this was not typical--I couldn't cook in an oven without a timer or be able to know what to do if the temp was off.

    A nice DW.

    A single bowl sink. Deepish, squarish,

    A Subzero refrigerator. This may be the weirdest thing to find important, but we needed good storage in a very shallow space, and I Hate crevices. There is no space around this to get anything in it. (If I could have waterproofed the floor and had a drain in it, I would have. We clean the kitchen a Lot. Actually being small is an advantage in this case. A side effect of the Subzero is that food really does stay fresh longer. I just had a head of lettuce last a Month. It would not have been usable at the end of a week in the old fridge. I know you can waste a lot of food for the $10,000, but I hate wasting food.

    We were going to have SS counters which meant that I could make the sink exactly what I wanted and I also wanted two faucets. I still which I had two faucets. We only have one because I got tired of spending money and having to deal with an unknown fabricator. So it's laminate counters with a short backsplash and we both actually like it a lot. I had soapstone before and I thought that was great (and a fabricator I know and trust_, but it didn't seem quite right for this house.

    We also have an old, small, match lit gas oven that we didn't have room for that we are going to hook up in the basement at some point.

    We do not have all drawers. I did not want all drawers. I like at least one lower cabinet with shelves and one with pullouts. And then we have drawers. Some are as shallow as 3". I thought long and hard about the insistence on all drawers and made a conscious decision against it.

    I have a bank of upper cabinets that are only 10" deep. They are perfect for a lot of things except plates. I have one cabinet that is about 15" inside with full shelves and 6" shelves staggered. So I played a lot with depth because of various parameters because I don't have a lot of length.

    One thing is, that our kitchen is not the "heart of the home". Our kitchen is a workspace, and when cooking is done for (up to about 18 people max) it's done like a restaurant: tons of prep before anyone is there, things in process when people are there and a very short burst of a lot of work at the last minute before serving dinner with minimal time away from the guests. But it's really "everybody keep out". And of course they have to because it's small.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked palimpsest
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    I always laugh when I hear folks say you need a fancy-schmancy kitchen to be a good cook. One of the best chefs I know lives in a tiny house off the grid in the wilds of northern Minnesota. Much of what he eats he grows, forages, catches, or shoots. For years his kitchen consisted of a 2-burner propane stove on a beat up old workbench. Here are some of his everyday meals (with his descriptions):

    - Fish n chips . Pretty basic n boring! maple& billet bourbon glazed coho salmon topped with wild mushrooms fried leak ragout and homemade potato chips seasoned with truffle powder


    New years brunch, prosciutto eggs Benedict/ homemade truffle seasoned hollandaise. Three onion and jalapeño hash topped with maple bourbon goat cheese, garlic oil sautéed asparagus.


    I can't believe we still have Wild blueberries in our freezer so I made buttermilk pancakes with wild blueberry, bacon, banana and Walnut compote with maple syrup for breakfast.



    Jennifer Hogan thanked AnnKH
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    Yummy! Is he named “Adam” and was he on “Northern Exposure”?

    The other thing I’ve thought about is how inflexible kitchens are. In the living room, if a chair gets worn out we simply put a new one down; sofas, beds, dining tables, they all swap in and out without fuss.

    Kitchens, though, once remodeled, are frozen in time or amber.

    Everything is fitted together, zero-clearance, matches perfectly, is glued and screwed into a seamless bloc, by expensive and inscrutable trades who are, generally, better at installing than modifying. Counters glued to cabinets, backsplashes fitted to uppers, and the same tile or stone or wood is never available again when we need it. Go to replace a damaged cabinet door, the exact match cannot be found, and we have to spend the price of a nice vacation to replace *all* the doors. And later, when we want update the kitchen, to do more than changing the slideout range and the tea towels soon involves re-doing everything for the price of a nice vacation and a nice car - for some, a nice boat too.

    Why, I’ve wondered, aren’t kitchens like those other rooms? Those rooms are, fundamentally, modular. Pieces can get changed out, switched around, and why can’t our kitchens be that way too?

    Obviously, cooking can be done, and well, in a modular kitchen. Kitchens in the US, up to about a century ago, were modular. Commercial kitchens have always been modular.

    This line of thought leads to the “unfitted kitchen”, and I was surprised and pleased to learn that is a thing. Not a common thing, but not an totally unknown thing. There’s blogs about it, like https://cottonwoodandco.com/the-rise-of-the-unfitted-kitchen/

    I realize this doesn’t exactly answer the question, which asked about “Modern Kitchens”, since unfitted kitchens are kind of a throw-back thing, but maybe what was Old can become New again.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked John Liu
  • 3 months ago

    Is he named “Adam” and was he on “Northern Exposure”?

    Thanks for this reference. One of my favorite shows, which alas isn't streaming anywhere.

  • 3 months ago

    Bookwoman, we're watching it right now on Amazon Prime.


    John, as a matter of fact, his name IS Adam, but he's in Minnesota, not Alaska.

  • 3 months ago

    Thanks, I hadn't looked for it in a while.

  • 3 months ago

    I enjoyed reading this thread.

    I'm like eld, grew up in an apartment that was a nice size ( 3 BR!!! of course, 1 BA) and a teeny tiny kitchen that worked.

    My first apartment had an even smaller kitchen in a studio apartment. Obviously I wasn't cooking much but it worked.

    Then when we got married and bought a house, we had a full real kitchen with a peninsula and everything. Lots of storage ( or it seemed so relatively speaking)

    Then our next house had a really large kitchen with an island and everything. Lots and lots of storage

    Now downsized to a townhouse with a good sized kitchen which we remodeled recently. It all works.

    I think we grow in to our space and needs.

    I do have to make a small point about "needs". Even for a kosher kitchen which mine is not, back in the desert and back in the shtetl they did not have 2 sets of appliances. It's certainly a great nice to have, but certainly not a necessity nd people managed fine without.

  • 3 months ago

    Pul out shelf under the kitchen sink (goes for bathroom sinks as well). Of all the ares where small items can “hide” , this is the place. Inrecommended this to a friend and she loves it. It’s on my next home project for myself.

  • 3 months ago

    "Need" is an undefined term so as said earlier what one thinks is a need will not match others'. Nephew just built a MULIT-Million $$$$ home. He is not allowed to make a PBJ in their kitchen. Wife has a FIT . The kitchen has to be magazine ready at all times. She does not cook AT ALL. I assume she built it for entertaining and impressing whoever might come by. I can't begin to imagine what ammentities she thought she NEEDED. Our forever home never got the kitchen upgrade I was promised when I agreed to the home. It has kept me from acquiring extraneous appliances. There is no room for them so I just keep to old school cooking. I can't say it bother's me. It's freeing really. Also the financial disparity represented on this site is sooo huge there is just no way for this to be of help. Define NEED and then give a range of cost of home. It might get you SOMETHING of an idea.

  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    My kitchen is small but pretty effecient. I have a single door freezer on the bottom refrigerator, a 30 inch 4 burner slide in dual fuel range, a microwave, and a standard dishwasher. I regularly use two of the burners on the stove and occasionally use three. I don't think I’ve ever used all four simultaneously.

    I have Breville toaster oven that gets a lot of use. The coffee maker is used daily, but not by me! My stand mixer and food processor live on the counter but aren’t used reguarly. My crock pot and blender are in a cabinet and are maybe used once a month.

    I wish I had double ovens and a bit more storage but overall, I’m pretty happy with my kitchen.

  • 3 months ago

    "Cost of home" is not a good measure either. That $5 million home in LA is not a mansion and would be a $2 mill in another city/state and $700K in another. Land value might be a better measure!

  • 3 months ago

    IMO a modern kitchen needs a functional layout that suits the cook/s who use it (whether to cook or entertain with caterers or whatever.) Then it needs friends and family gathered in it :)

  • 3 months ago

    I think back to the stories my mom told about her childhood, when life was simple. Mom got up in the morning got the kids off to school and the men off to work. From 8 till noon she would do her shopping, cook, clean . . . She only had a bucket, a mop, a broom and some rags to clean the house. She had a stove and oven. By noon she was done with most of her work and would sit on the front porch and talk with the neighbors when weather permitted. In the winter they visited with each other. Sitting and visiting usually included doing some type of sewing or needlework. Around 3 mom would go back in the house and prepare dinner for the family. After dinner the girls did the dishes and cleaned up the kitchen while mom played the piano. When dishes were done they gathered as a family and sewed, read, sang or played board games or cards. They only had 4 outfits each, one to wear, one to wash, one for prayer (church) and one for spare.


    She used to say it took longer to get everything out to clean the house than it took her mom to actually clean the house.


    My mom had a simple kitchen, but could make dinner for 15 every day. I think our galley kitchen was about 14' long not including the freezer. Laundry room held the second MW and had lots of storage, another Fridge and another table where the teenagers/young adults ate dinner. Our eating spaces were bigger than the kitchen, but had to hold all the men and kids where the kitchen was mostly the female domain.




    Why do we now need such huge kitchens to prepare fewer meals, for fewer people?

  • 3 months ago

    "Are we designing kitchens for how we cook or for how our mother's cooked?"


    Well, my mother never cooked. All of our meal were microwave dinners. We had a second microwave that was called into duty when we had guests.


    Incredibly, I am constant and capable cook. Until recently, two hot meals a day. (kiddo just started college) My kitchen was designed by an architect friend and completely NOT what I thought I wanted but I trusted him. Galley style with ample built in pantry cabinets.


    I have a full size upright freezer and fridge (seperate columns) range, dish washer, beverage and fridge. The microwave gets used maybe 6 times a year and is hidden in a cabinet.


    I use my instapot 2x or so a month, rarely use the food processor but can't bare to part with it.


    As mentioned up thread, our kitchen is the hub of the house.

  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    What an excellent question!

    - Speaking only for myself, I cook very much like my mother did. She is an excellent cook and "has everything", but she also uses everything. She prioritizes her basics: good pots/pans, good knives, cleanliness.

    - My mother had a large pantry, and I've always appreciated pantries --- no better way to store everything cheaply /so you can see it at a glance. I am solidly sure that a small kitchen + a good-sized adjacent pantry are "the dream team".

    - I've made wedding cakes for years, and I own over 100 cake pans. Plus stands. The point is, Know your own special needs.

    She lived in her kitchen.

    People knock open floor plans, but they're great for people who "live in their kitchens".

    Curious - in a given week what cooking appliances do you use?

    - Standard sized range, sink, refrigerator -- I use them constantly. While not technically a need, I never want to be without a dishwasher.

    - My husband uses the InstaPot at least once every other week. Every time we have chicken /a rotisserie chicken, he makes chicken broth from the skin and bones.

    - I use my vacuum sealer at least once every other week. When my husband makes broth, we spoon it out into 2-cup meaures and seal it up for the freezer. I seal up 1/2 a bag of French fries or frozen veg. We love that thing for preserving food.

    - I use my slow cooker constantly in the winter -- less in warmer weather.

    - I use my Kitchen Aid mixer at least once a week -- some weeks it's more like 3-4 times. I also have a hand mixer; I could let go of the hand mixer.

    - Air Fryer -- we use this for leftovers 4-5 times a week. If I were buying a new range, I'd opt for one with a shorty Air Fryer on top -- you know, to get an item off the countertop.

    - Our microwave isn't used often. I could say goodbye to it.

    - My husband uses the Keurig coffee machine several times a day.

    - I love my steamer for broccoli or shrimp or boiled eggs, but I could let it go, as I can duplicate all its functions elsewhere in the kitchen. Similarly, we have /use but aren't completely attached to a waffle iron, a rice cooker (which can cook more than rice) and a bullet blender. I got rid of my toaster and food processor because I never used them.

    Six burners, I typically use four but have run out. Eight would not be unwelcome.

    This whole list is so much, so much, so much. No need for oversized and bloated -- it takes more cleaning, costs more, and most days all that excess isn't used. As I've grown older, I want fewer and fewer of these things. It seems to me that people with "all that stuff" seem to have it for looks -- it doesn't seem to get used on a regular basis. On the other hand, I had a good friend whose kitchen was literally like 6x8 -- so small -- yet she canned all summer long. She re-did her kitchen with upscale materials (which she could afford since she needed so little) and every inch worked for her.

    Lots of counter space. An unreasonable amount of counter space. Then double that.

    Nope, nope, nope. I have that kitchen now, and you know what happens with all that excess? The family drags in junk. It's the goldfish analogy: your stuff expands to fit your space, and it becomes more to clean.

    Of course, wee hobbitfolk and skinny minnies will adjust dimensions to suit them.

    Yeah, the average American may be taller, but I'm only 4'11".

    I do not believe in togetherness in the kitchen, I want everyone to stay out of my way and I’ll stay out of theirs.

    Yes! My husband and I both like to cook, but neither of us likes anyone else in the kitchen -- makes us cranky. We like our peninsula, where someone can sit and talk while we cook, but they're solidly kept out of the kitchen.

    My dream would be a kitchen full of maple but this kitchen now is large with many and it would be a very expensive undertaking.

    Yes, materials' expense is a good reason to keep the kitchen modest in size. Most of us can afford 12ish really nice maple cabinets -- but 25 or more becomes cost prohibitive.

    Truthfully, my kitchen is more full and complete than any mother ever had or wanted. She did not particularly like to cook

    Now that's a fair point -- people who just want to make coffee and heat up a frozen lasagna probably aren't in this conversation at all.

    Big Green Egg

    Yes! Best grill ever, and my husband uses it about twice a week.

    My kitchen is a 10x10 space

    Honestly, I think that's pretty close to ideal -- assuming you have a pantry too. It's plenty to cook a family meal, and it's not so big that you are forced into extra steps, excessive cleaning or exhorbinant costs.

    My #1 requirement is a large sink under a window.

    If you look at kitchen pictures over the years, that's probably the #1 standard item.

    My kitchen is like a roomy cockpit, turn here, take a step there, it's all within reach. Perfect prep area between my sink and stove. Must be contiguous, no carrying hot things from the stove across the floor to a work counter.

    Again, ideal. Well-planned and efficient beats oversized every time.

    I rarely need more than two or three burners, even at holiday time (I do a lot of pre-prep).

    Yep. That's just common sense. I started prepping for Thanksgiving yesterday.

    One idea is to get everything off the counter.

    Very sensible. People who say, "I need more, more, more counterspace!" often have a lot of stuff sitting out -- stuff that could /should be put away for better efficiency.

    Suppose you have 10 half sheet pans in the rack

    I'd ask who actually needs ten half-sheet pans. I mean, I cook as much as anyone I know, and I have two. I can imagine someone might need four -- but ten?

    But full sheet pans are a bit unwieldy, I think.

    Agree. They have their use in a commercial kitchen, but a commercial kitchen also has those racks on which they can be placed.

    Kitchens have gotten bigger and bigger, and more and more expensive, and have fancier appliances in them, but the fancier the kitchen, the less day-to-day cooking that seems to go on there.

    Yep.

    If I sound skeptical and cantankerous

    On the topic of "enough" kitchen, common sense often masquerades as skeptical and cantakerous.

    The other thing I’ve thought about is how inflexible kitchens are.

    Good point.

    The same could be said of bathrooms.

    He is not allowed to make a PBJ in their kitchen. Wife has a FIT . The kitchen has to be magazine ready at all times. She does not cook AT ALL.

    Yeah, that's never been my goal -- but I have read many times /have observed that the larger /more fancy a kitchen, the less cooking gets done in it.

    I met a woman recently who keeps dish towels spread over her expensive marble-topped island. Literally, all the time she keeps it covered. Why would you want something you can't use?

  • 3 months ago

    My mom, sisters and I all loved the Movie "Sabrina" (The Harrison Ford version). There were two lines in that movie that come to mind with this discussion -

    One was when Sabrina is taking photos and says "More isn’t necessarily better Linus. Sometimes it's just...more."

    and the other is when Sabrina is talking to her mentor in Paris about David and her mentor says "He sounds like an illusion"

    Sabrina responds "He keeps me company"

    Her mentor responds "You think? Illusions are dangerous people. They have no flaws"


    I sometimes think that we imagine a life that we will someday live, imagine what we need, imagine that buying a wolfe range and subzero fridge will somehow change how we manage our kitchen and meals for our family. Are we less satisfied with our homes and our lives because we have this imaginary world where we are the perfect woman who bakes cakes from scratch, makes fresh bread daily, grows organic vegetables and cooks incredibly tasty, healthy, gourmet meals for our families when in reality we pick up fast food on the way home from work and have the kids eat it on the way to soccer practice which we will get to 10 minutes late again!


    I know so many moms who beat themselves up when in reality they are doing an amazing job. Their kids are happy and feel loved, and their kids don't care that the dishes didn't get done one night or that the bread they had with their breakfast was off the grocery store shelf and not baked from scratch in their own kitchen.


    Not saying that the woman or man who loves to cook shouldn't have a kitchen with all kinds of bells and whistles, but should we get all the bells and whistles if we won't use them? Are we all trying to keep up with the jones when we are smith's and don't live like the jones.

  • 3 months ago

    I love all the comments on this thread.


    I did get myself one of the webber outdoor griddles this year - I love this thing. I can fry up a lb of bacon with virutally no mess - no grease in my kitchen. Sears a steak, great for hot dogs and hambergers. It is still relatively new, so using it several times a week, but only time will tell if I keep using it so much or tire of it. New toys are fun.


  • 3 months ago

    " I'd ask who actually needs ten half-sheet pans. " I just ordered 10 lbs of apricots which will be used to mass bake apricot crescents. It is a Christmas specialty that my mom baked every year. After she passed away the girls in the family would all get together and bake them for the entire family. Over the past few years my sisters and sister-in-laws have had more and more health issues and joint issues and just can't do the mass baking and rolling, so I have taken on making apricot crescents for the family (all the kids, grandkids and great grandkids).

    It is my gift. The only thing I give out at Christmas. Doing this myself requires that I have things set up in an assebly line. I roll the dough, spread the filling, cut and form the crescents.

    They have to rise and then be baked. When I get on a roll I will have 2 pans in the oven, 4 pans rising and 2 pans cooling and be filling the last 2 cooled pans, so yes, I need 10 full baking sheets. I don't know that I own a half sheet. I will make some nut roll, prune rolls and poppy seed rolls, sand tarts and a few other cookies over the holidays, but not enough for the whole family, just enough for those who love a specific holiday treat.

    My kitchen is 10x10 with too many doorways, but somehow I manage to production bake in what most people would consider a too small kitchen.


  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    I am like kSWL. I only like to be in my kitchen or any kitchen for that matter to work. I do not find entertaining or being entertained in a kitchen at all pleasing. I find if i put the bar in the living room and appetizers in the attached sunroom and serve dinner in the dining room then no one stays in the kitchen except to offer to help clean and everyone is far more comfortable including me.

    I prefer kitchens of yore because they were mostly for morning meals and prep work areas and the smaller sizes were more efficient. I prefer a door between my kitchen and the dining room or house proper so I can keep noise and smells from disturbing others in early morning or late evenings hours. I need a great sound system in my kitchen more than i need an island or microwave drawer or even six burners. My best meals are made in my 27 ft sail boat‘s galley kitchen and my dream kitchen is a galley with a small breakfast table at the end.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked roarah
  • 3 months ago

    My grandmother lived in a one-bedroom apartment in San Francisco. The kitchen was tiny, a little apartment stove and literally an ice box, big enough for a quart of milk and a whole chicken. She would cook dinner for 12 or so, multi-course, out of that little kitchen. She rolled out noodles on her little kitchen table, cut freehand.

    Kitchens are my favorite rooms. My perfect kitchen is eat-in with room for a table in a corner, under windows. My house has a peninsula between my kitchen and the table. During the day I call it the kitchen table, if I'm having dinner there, and I do, it's the dining room table. Same table, same space. I'm fine hanging out in the kitchen and welcome others there, too.

    My dream is to have a personal chef who calls me to the table for 3 perfect meals a day.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Bunny
  • 3 months ago

    In the house where I grew up, Roarah, our dining room had a swinging door between the kitchen anteroom and the dining room with a window in it. I always thought that was the most sensible way to separate the two rooms because it can be opened by someone with their hands full by simply backing into it. I totally agree about noises and cooking smells, which linger to some degree no matter how powerful the exhaust fan— which also adds noise. And if we leave our current dining room to have coffee in the living room I don’t run the dishwasher because it’s more noise, even though we bought our current DW based on its decibel level. ( We have a standalone icemaker that also makes some background noise.) My new strategy is to keep everyone in the DR for dessert which I serve from the sideboard while my kitchen helper loads the DW and stacks the scraped plates in the sink and puts the food away. That way the kitchen is at least tidied when we go into sit down in the living room even though there are still masses of dishes and glassware to hand wash later.


    We do entertain less here than we used to and the layout of the house has a lot to do with that.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Kswl
  • 3 months ago

    He is not allowed to make a PBJ in their kitchen. Wife has a FIT . The kitchen has to be magazine ready at all times. She does not cook AT ALL.


    We did a gut remodel of our kitchen a few years ago and I spent an embarrassing amoun of time at the appliance dealer. The sales clerk talked me out of the "drawers" - microwaves, freezer, fridge, little dishwashers just for glasses, etc. saying too many moving parts, they break all the time.


    When I ask why they sold such items, he said "you would be amazed how many people don't use their kitchens, its all for show"

    Jennifer Hogan thanked pennfire
  • 3 months ago

    I'll disagree that a microwave drawer is for show or breaks all the time.

    Lots of people on this forum have owned the Sharp MW drawers for many years and we rarely hear anyone complain about them.

    FYI, Sharp makes all the MWs that then get re-badged by other appliance manufacturers. Get the Sharp MW drawer with the tilting keypad ... all the other models with a flat keypad make it hard to see the controls without bending down.

  • 3 months ago

    We have a Sharp MW drawer in our kitchen island, and love it. It has operated without problems for the past 12 years.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked teeda
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    The one appliance i regret not getting in our old house was the Miele catering dishwasher that could do a ten minute load. The best appliance I bought for our current house was a fridge only tower for the kitchen. The freezer tower is in the garage. I don’t like freezing the food I make myself as a rule and don’t buy anything already frozen except veg I might need for soups and stews and ice cream Since we have a separate ice maker there is no need for a freezer in the kitchen and the all-fridge gives me more room.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Kswl
  • 3 months ago

    Kswl, I joke that the freezer, for me, is like a black hole. Things go in and never come out. I like my meat and vegetable fresh. I do keep some frozen snacks, like cookie dough and some frozen Trader Joe's meal for when we have "nothing" to eat in the house.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked chispa
  • 3 months ago

    @Kswl, I agree!


    I have a Hobart commercial dishwasher, for the speedy cycle, and a True all-fridge, with an icemaker in the kitchen and a freezer in the basement.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked John Liu
  • 3 months ago

    It is a Christmas specialty that my mom baked every year. After she passed away the girls in the family would all get together and bake them for the entire family.

    That's a lovely story!

    However, this is something you do just once a year? So I wouldn't give prime storage space to 10 sheet pans for once-a-year use. Ideas:

    - Bake your yummy pastries in batches.

    - Store them in a box in the garage.

    - Use disposable aluminum baking pans.

    - If you're a member of a church, look into doing this once-a-year baking in the fellowship hall, where they have loads of sheet pans.

    - Look into renting sheet pans once a year -- renting kitchen equipment is actually quite affordable.

    - Look into a commercial kitchen rental for a single day out of the year.

    - Even if the sisters /sisters-in-law can't participate in the cooking, they could lend you their sheet pans once a year.

    The point is, you're talking about once a year. You don't need to store 10 sheet pans for once-a-year's use. And, of course, this isn't about sheet pans -- it's about any one-trick pony /under-utilized item that's not "earning its space" in the kitchen.

    My kitchen is 10x10 with too many doorways, but somehow I manage to production bake in what most people would consider a too small kitchen.

    I totally believe you! Small kitchens tend to put out more actual food than big showboats.

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Mrs Pete
  • 3 months ago

    It’s all about layout, not size!

    Jennifer Hogan thanked Kswl
  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    I am wondering if anyone has seen a table or list that can help people figure out how much storage they need?

    You could take 24“ W x 24“ D as a ”standard” base cabinet footprint, 4”, 6“, 8” as ” standard” drawer heights, and do something like:

    - Flatware: one 4” drawer

    - Knives (in holder): one 6” drawer

    - Cooking utensils: one 6” drawer

    - Dishware set ( dinner plates, salad plates, bowls) for eight: one 8” drawer

    - Basic saucepan set: one 8” drawer

    Etc, for all major classes of things one typically puts in base cabinet drawers - rolls of foil/wrap/parchment, folded dishtowels, leftover containers, workbowls, and so on.

    For glassware, you could take 24” W x 16” D as a ” standard” upper cabinet shelf, and say:

    - water glasses, set for 8: 8” linear inches of shelf

    - stemware, set for 8: 8” linear inches

    And so on for everything one typically puts in upper cabinets.

    Similar for staples in boxes, jars, bags, and cans that one typically puts on pantry shelves.

    This would be very approximate, individual requirements could vary - if you, like me, have drawers full of devices that you don’t know what they do but you must keep them in case one day a pterodactyl needs a root canal and it comes to you "so thaaaaat's what the thingy-jiggy is for, sure glad I have one", then you may need 100% more storage than ”standard” - but it could still be helpful for planning.

    Our pros probably know quite well how many drawers, shelf-inches, and pantry-feet are needed for the typical family of X, in both “Marie Kondo” and “unrepentant hoarder” versions? Without giving away trade secrets, do you have any rules of thumb?

  • 3 months ago

    Great question, John!

    For those things that get used once a year (how often do you really rice potatoes?), a box in a closet in another room is the best place, unless you have a huge kitchen or pantry. I like to think in terms of "prime real estate", with the most often used items getting the best spot.

    I'm all about efficient use of space. I put things the same height together on a shelf, so there isn't wasted space between shelves.

    I measured not only the linear inches for things, but the height. My crock pot, rice cooker, and cake pans on their sides, require a drawer 10-1/2" deep. So my 3-drawer stacks have deep drawers on the bottom, standard top drawers, and the middle drawer gets whatever is leftover.

    When we did our latest remodel, we couldn't change the footprint, but I still measured to determine where things were going to go. I marked out drawer sizes on the counter using tape, and placed things in the space, to determine which things would fit in which drawers.

  • 3 months ago

    I think there are too many variables in how we cook, what we use to have a standardized list, but I did make a list of the 3 and dimensions of my cabinets/drawers in my kitchen when I was house hunting so that I could compare what was in the kitchen vs what I was used to.


    I do like to do an annual inventory of things I own and get rid of things not used in the past year.


    I have several methods for doing this, but the week between Christmas and New Years I will identify things that I know that I don't use on a consistent basis and will either place a small rubber band over a handle or attach a post it note or place multiple small items in a baggie.

    Throughout the year, as I use things I remove the mark or take things out of the bag. Then the following year, things that were not used in the past year get moved out of my kitchen and into a bin stored in the garage. In June I donate the contents of the bin.

  • 3 months ago

    "I do not believe in togetherness in the kitchen, I want everyone to stay out of my way and I’ll stay out of theirs."

    I love having friends and family in my kitchen, but I try to keep them on the "social" side of my island, while I'm on the "work" side. That way we can socialize while I'm still prepping. There are exceptions for people I really like who also know how to navigate in a shared kitchen.

  • 3 months ago

    I want NO ONE in my kitchen, ever.

  • 3 months ago

    I want people in my kitchen doing the work and clean up ... while I go for a walk and then show up just in time to eat! LOL

  • 3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    “I want NO ONE in my kitchen, ever.”

    My ideal kitchen would be in the basement. Leave me alone. I’m having fun cooking. I’ll send food up by dumbwaiter.

    Or everyone else in the basement, me upstairs, if you want. I’m obliging that way.

  • 3 months ago

    “I have several methods for doing this,”


    You are patient!


    I’m thinking about trying another way. I’ll put a box in the kitchen, dump all the “don’t know exactly what that is” stuff in it. If something gets retrieved from the box to be used, it gets to stay. Too aggressive?

  • 3 months ago

    I actually do this to my whole home - clothing gets hung with rubber bands on the hangers, socks, underware, swimsuits get placed in bags, shorts get a large safety pin in the waistband.


    As long as I get rid of things I don't use each year I never get too much stuff collected in my home.

  • 3 months ago

    It’s all about layout, not size!

    Agree somewhat. Layout is everything ... but size plays into layout.

    Dishware set ( dinner plates, salad plates, bowls) for eight: one 8” drawer

    Just to be argumentative, I'll throw this in: Some dishes take a lot more space than others; for example, my casual china is Pfaltzgraff, and those plates are thick-thick. I can stack 8 of my fancy china in the space required for 4 of those Pfaltzgraff.

    It'd be smart for a homebuilder to measure what they have now and ask, "Is this enough? Do I need more or less?"

    For those things that get used once a year (how often do you really rice potatoes?), a box in a closet in another room is the best place, unless you have a huge kitchen or pantry. I like to think in terms of "prime real estate", with the most often used items getting the best spot.

    - I love the pegboard in my pantry -- those things absorb so many small things like the potato ricer and all my husband's BBQ implements.

    - I definitely like the concept of "prime real estate" vs. spots for stuff you use only occasionally.

    I'm all about efficient use of space.

    I do admire efficiency.

    I measured not only the linear inches for things, but the height. My crock pot, rice cooker, and cake pans on their sides, require a drawer 10-1/2" deep.

    I'd argue such things are best stored on adjustable shelves, as those small appliances come and go over the years.

    I do like to do an annual inventory of things I own and get rid of things not used in the past year.

    This is good sense, and I like the idea of making the week between Christmas and New Year's an inventory time -- that's a big clean-up week.

    I love having friends and family in my kitchen, but I try to keep them on the "social" side of my island, while I'm on the "work" side.

    I consider that arrangement perfect.


    Jennifer Hogan thanked Mrs Pete
  • PRO
    3 months ago

    Let's face it, when planning a kitchen turns into a finished kitchen, there are usually some things that you would have done differently. In my case, I made some unwise choices when designing the kitchen in our current home, back in 2000. My choice for location of the large sink was at the window, where traditionally they are located. What I realized soon after using our kitchen is that everyone tends to gather at the island, where our small sink was located. Having the main sink in the island is extremely efficient, with the bonus of facing your guests while doing last minute prep or clean up. Fast forward 23 years, we are doing a complete kitchen remodel, and the large prep sink is now in the island, and a much smaller sink is at the window. Both will have dishwashers adjacent to the sinks. I am looking forward to being a part of the fun at the island!

    ● Make sure you look at your floor plan and imagine the doors being open on all appliances. The most common mistake I see is having a dishwasher in the path from the eating area to the sink. The general rule for dishwasher location is to make sure the open dishwasher door is not in the way of frequent travel. Secondly, if possible, the dishwasher is most comfortable on the left for right handed users and on the right for left handed users. I know that sounds a bit backwards, right? To understand, simply imaging holding a dish to rinse or scrub it prior to placing it in the dishwasher. Right handed people always hold the dish in the left hand, which happens to be adjacent to a dishwasher on the left side of the sink. This location should always be overlooked in favor of a traffic pattern issue. Do the same visual test on oven doors, microwave doors, refrigerator and freezer doors.

    ● Make sure you have plenty if aisle space between working areas. Unless your kitchen is very small and you have only one user in the kitchen, I favor at least 45" of space between countertops. All too often, floorplan drawings show dimensions on plans without considering countertop overhang. Most countertops have an overhang of roughly 1 1/2". So, if your plan shows 42" of walkway between the island and the cabinetry on a wall, you are really only getting 39" of space!

    ● More often, it takes years to discover that some choice made years ago is now going to require an expensive fix. The best example, that I see regularly, is investing in a kitchen sink without doing a great deal of research. I have cared for hundreds of our past customers that called with damaged sinks that were discontinued. The only solution for most people, is to replace all of the countertops and often backsplashes - unless they happen to find us. Either way, the cost is relatively high. It would be far less costly, down the road, to select a sink that will last decades (or generations, in our case). The question you might have at this point is how do you know which sinks will last? My go-to source is often Houzz.com. They have a plethora of valuable, first hand, experiences regarding just about all kinds and brands of sinks. If you will indulge me a bit and allow me to generalize, these are some of the sink materials that seem to have the most negative comments. 1. Fireclay Sinks 2. Cast Iron Sinks 3. Synthetic Granite Sinks, Soapstone Sinks and other stone sinks. From what I have read, you have to be fairly lucky to have anyone of these types of sinks for a long time without issues. For the most part, that leaves metal sinks as the most durable. So, what differentiates different companies and their metal sinks? Again, look at Houzz.com.

    ● Lighting is critically important. Most kitchens I see are not properly lit. It is far better to have more light than necessary, than not enough. Dimmer switches can take care of the first concern. Make sure you are not working in your shadow - especially at the sink(s) or cooking area. The brightest light should be directly overhead and, or, in front of you - never coming from behind. Consider task lighting, under cabinet and over cabinet lighting if possible.

    ● Not all countertop materials are created equal, and some come with issues that are often overlooked. While I'm not an expert on porcelain tops, I've been informed that they are relatively thin and have thick edges created by mitering two thinner pieces together. Such mitered edges are more susceptible to chipping compared to rounded or beveled edges. In fact, any material—be it stone or synthetic—with a nearly 90-degree edge is likely to experience chipping at some point. Best practice here is to listen to your countertop fabricator.

    ● Exhaust fan air movement is often overlooked. Make sure your fan system is powerful enough to pull smoke, odors and grease particles up into the filter. Just as I suggested in lighting, more is better!

    ● Trash and recycle storage is often set next to the sink. One huge advantage of a sink with a rear corner drain that is not too deep is the fact that dual trash can fit under the sink. The benefit is quite significant. Without question, the sink area is the most used area in a kitchen, and if a dishwasher is on one side and trash storage is on the other side of the sink, there is no good storage where it is most needed!


    In conclusion, designing a kitchen is far more than just selecting pretty finishes and nifty gadgets—it's about creating a functional space that accommodates your lifestyle. Your kitchen should facilitate the workflow, offer adequate storage, and be a pleasure to spend time in. As someone who has been in the kitchen design industry for many years and experienced my own share of design regrets, I've learned that the devil really is in the details.


    One of the most important elements of any kitchen remodel is thoughtful planning. Ensure your layout allows for easy movement, especially when appliances are open. Pay attention to countertop overhang when calculating walkways and consider the ergonomics of your dishwasher's placement relative to your dominant hand.


    The next crucial aspect is durability—choosing materials and fixtures that will stand the test of time, not just aesthetically but also functionally. Do your research; utilize reliable sources like Houzz.com to read reviews and customer experiences.


    Lastly, if you're in doubt, always seek the advice of professionals and previous homeowners who have been in your shoes before. Make informed decisions and you're more likely to enjoy a kitchen that's as beautiful as it is practical for years to come. After all, the kitchen is the heart of the home—make sure it's a strong one.



  • 3 months ago

    Very helpful!

  • 3 months ago

    The most common mistake I see is having a dishwasher in the path from the eating area to the sink.

    Agree that you want to avoid open doors becoming obstacles. I would care most about the dishwasher because it tends to stay open a while as you load /unload it. In contrast, the oven door is open only a few moments and the refrigerator isn't oen all that long -- a passer-through can wait a moment while those items are used.

    Secondly, if possible, the dishwasher is most comfortable on the left for right handed users and on the right for left handed users.

    I'd argue that your statement about left /righthandness is true, but the difference in comfort is only negligible -- and you said traffic patterns matter most, so we're in agreement. What I'd care about more:

    - The dishwasher should be placed on the side of the kitchen nearest the table. This means you can bring the dishes in /place them straight into the dishwasher without crossing the kitchen.

    - You want your glassware to be within one step of the dishwasher. Most of us go through a lot of glasses -- even when we don't have company -- and typically we can only carry two glasses at once (in contrast, we can carry a whole stack of plates in one trip), so placing glasses near the dishwasher makes life easier.

    - At the same time, you want your glassware to be stored within arm's reach of the refrigerator, as this means you can grab a glass and fill it without crossing the kitchen.

    - Similar to glassware, you want your silverware to be stored near the dishwasher, as it's also a pain to put away.

    - You don't want to prep your food over the dishwasher -- instead, you want to prep over drawers, which hold your knives, etc. More convenient.

    - I know that's a lot to ask of your dishwasher placement, but "getting it right" will save you steps and wasted effort for years to come.

    I favor at least 45" of space between countertops.

    I say LOOK at things yourself and judge. Measure your current kitchen. Measure friends' kitchens. Go to Lowes and measure their sample kitchens. Consider, too, that excess space is just as bad as too-small space (well, maybe not AS BAD, but we're not trying to build "adequate", are we?).

    Most countertops have an overhang of roughly 1 1/2". So, if your plan shows 42" of walkway between the island and the cabinetry on a wall, you are really only getting 39" of space!

    Yes, yes, if I had a red flag, I'd post it here. Know exactly what your measurements are.

    The question you might have at this point is how do you know which sinks will last?

    I personally have never had anything but a builder-basic stainless steel sink, and none of them have ever shown wear and tear. They're built like tanks, I suppose, and they're hard to harm. Your sink is a workhorse, not a show pony. Get stainless steel.

    Lighting is critically important .... Make sure you are not working in your shadow - especially at the sink(s) or cooking area.

    Wow, you're throwing out some good material here. I'd say a hypothetical, typical kitchen should include:

    - A central overhead light -- on a separate switch, doesn't need to be a strong light

    - A strong task light over the sink, depending upon your design, possibly two lights

    - Multiple task lights over the island or peninsula, which is likely to be your primary prep spot. This light and the sink light would work well on the same switch.

    - Your range hood will have light for your stovetop

    - Undercounter lighting -- on a dimmer

    - A light right in front of the refrigerator -- probably on its own switch

    - A light in the pantry; since this probably "doesn't show" to the world, a flourescent stick is good enough -- they put out a lot of light and literally last more than a decade. Also, a motion-sensored light, which turns on /off when you open the pantry door is a lovely and affordable luxury.

    - Optional: Toe-kick lighting to use as a night light

    - Optional: Undercounter lighting for the countertop

    Not all countertop materials are created equal

    Another countertop concern is, What type of edge to use. Choose a style that's harder to chip.

    In conclusion, designing a kitchen is far more than just selecting pretty finishes and nifty gadgets

    Hear, hear! Function first!

  • 21 hours ago

    Random comment --- if you use dishwasher drawers, people can get by more easily and it gives you more layout options

    Jennifer Hogan thanked mtnrdredux_gw
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