This is what I meant by the “mental load.”

who notices when something is running out - Both, but mostly me

who remembers what family members only eat X and who despises Y and buys accordingly - DH generally knows who likes what, but I‘m better because he didn’t always update his thinking when they learned to like something new. I do the majority of the buying.

who plans meals - Me

who notices and buys clothes for family members - I buy for myself and the kids. He buys for himself

who makes sure the credit card and property tax and insurance bills get paid and tax records are in order to do the annual calculations - DH

who manages how household members' health care needs are taken care of (from regular physicals to dr visits for illness to figuring out who to see for a mystery symptom) - I take care of myself and the kids. DH handles his own stuff.

who calls or figures out who to call for household repairs - DH takes care of most repairs. If we need to call someone in, I handle it.

who is in charge of scheduling a couple/family's social life including family gatherings and holidays - Me

who makes school and activity choices for kids - The kids and me with input, if needed, from DH

and veterinarian care choices for fur kids - Me with his input as needed

who does retirement planning..... Both

We think of ourselves as a team and I will admit that I'm sure things are easier for us as we have no children and at this time, no pets.

who notices when something is running out - Either

who remembers what family members only eat X and who despises Y and buys accordingly - this is not something we deal with

who plans meals - Me with his input when i do the weekly grocery order

who notices and buys clothes for family members - Again, this isn't an issue for us as it's only the two of us. I probably do more of this than he does

who makes sure the credit card and property tax and insurance bills get paid and tax records are in order to do the annual calculations - both

who manages how household members' health care needs are taken care of (from regular physicals to dr visits for illness to figuring out who to see for a mystery illness - we each handle our own

who calls or figures out who to call for household repairs - DH does most of ours too and if not, he's probably the one who calls

who is in charge of scheduling a couple/family's social life including family gatherings and holidays - both

who makes school and activity choices for kids - The kids and me with input, if needed, from DH

and veterinarian care choices for fur kids - N/A

who does retirement planning..... Both

I don't get offended by someone using ladies, or other terms or even calling me a guy or one of the boys (has happened many times as when I started out working it was a male dominated field and still is to some extent) as long as it is not said in a derogatory manner. Everything can be made into an insult depending on how it is delivered.

As to who does what. We do things based on our likes/preferences not that any of us really like doing chores and some of those divisions falls in traditional male vs female dominated areas. I used to do all home maintenance items, but due to some illnesses my DH has stepped up and done several lately even though he really dislikes doing it and I appreciate him even more for that. I generally enjoy those tasks. Recently he completed the installation of our new water softener that I'd started, but with not feeling well never completed. I do hire out cleaning as neither of us like doing it and my tolerance for a dirty house is less than his. I just need to start cleaning up stuff we have all over more than usual, but energy is still very low. Doesn't bother DH, but it bothers me. Hoping this summer will allow me to get through it. I have set a 4 month goal.

Who notices when something is running out - Both

Who remembers what family members only eat X and who despises Y and buys accordingly - Both

Who plans meals - Me - don't want DH cooking he leaves out ingredients he doesn't like even though he likes the recipe as a whole. He does cook if need be, but prefers take-out if he has to. I don't like cooking either so it is a goal of mine to improve on this, but it is tough with work, activities, and not having the energy due to illness. DH will cook though, but only give him stuff to make where the ingredient list is to his liking ;)

Who notices and buys clothes for family members - I buy for myself and our daughter and he buys for himself

Who makes sure the credit card and property tax and insurance bills get paid and tax records are in order to do the annual calculations - Me

Who manages how household members' health care needs are taken care of (from regular physicals to dr visits for illness to figuring out who to see for a mystery symptom) - I take care of myself, DH handles his own stuff and we share our daughters needs.

Who calls or figures out who to call for household repairs - Me although I used to do most myself and we still try to avoid hiring people for things we can do ourselves.

Who is in charge of scheduling a couple/family's social life including family gatherings and holidays - DH

Who makes school and activity choices for kids - The kid with input from us

And veterinarian care choices for fur kids - Me for regular check-ups, both otherwise and both may take them depending on who is available

Who does retirement planning - Both

More interesting points!

who notices when something is running out - everyone in family. Kids did this when they were small too. If they used something up, they put the empty box/container in a spot next to garbage so we knew to add it to shopping list

who remembers what family members only eat X and who despises Y and buys accordingly - both but mostly DH as he controls the food shopping (all on line)

who plans meals - DH unless it's a holiday and then I'm involved

who notices and buys clothes for family members - me

who makes sure the credit card and property tax and insurance bills get paid and tax records are in order to do the annual calculations - DH, but I watch bank accounts like a hawk :-)

who manages how household members' health care needs are taken care of (from regular physicals to dr visits for illness to figuring out who to see for a mystery symptom) - me, with input from doctor brother for mystery symptoms

who calls or figures out who to call for household repairs - DH

who is in charge of scheduling a couple/family's social life including family gatherings and holidays - BOTH

who makes school and activity choices for kids - was BOTH when we had young kids at home

and veterinarian care choices for fur kids - was DH when we had a dog. Currently no pets.

who does retirement planning - Financial advisor with me watching accounts like a hawk! We decide together how much gets saved but it's easy - max them out every year.

I am surprised when I hear some of my female coworkers and other employees talking at how stereotypical the roles they have are, even women in their 20s to 40. Like, most of their husbands or boyfriends will wear dirty clothes, or wear dressy clothes to work before they will actually do the laundry, or if the woman is busy all weekend at a meeting or studying for exams, the kitchen will be a complete wreck with dirty dishes piled in the sink (even if they have a DW).

(I am frequently the only male in the workplace on the schedule, so I hear a lot of stuff).

Some of this may be socioeconomic/educational. Many of the women are more educated than their husbands, who may have more working class backgrounds.

Obviously, from reading all the responses here, the rest of the women out there are experiencing more than their share of household duties because you all have snagged all the good men!

I would be interested in knowing your generations as well.

My siblings - 3 brothers who had stay at home wives - the wife did everything at home except finances. The stay at home wives had little or no control / understanding of family finances.

My one sister and I both managed both our careers and our homes/families. My sister often says she was the mother of 3, gave birth to two - married the third.

Oldest sister - Her and her husband were truly equal partners in the management of the household, household tasks, child rearing and work. She was a pediatrician, he was a pharmacist, but also took care of the inventory and supply of meds at her office. They seemed to work hand in hand with everything from doing laundry to paying bills and doing financial planning.

My nieces and nephews seem to be much better at sharing responsibility, but still not equal. The women are still much more likely to set up the dental appointment and doctor appointments for the kids, plan the meals, plan vacations, determine if they need a new sofa, organize the kitchen and closets . . .

I take back one thing I said above. DH always planned our son's dental and orthodontist appointments. He always took him, so he always made the next appointments. For whatever reason, I always took son to the medical appointments and made those.

I know I am lucky that my DH has no preconceptions about traditional roles. He is willing to do anything even if it is considered 'woman's work' by some. We laughed when we were on a cruise recently and he was into trying a different cocktail with dinner each night. One night he ordered a cosmopolitan which neither of us have ever had. We are not big drinkers and really have no clue about cocktails. After he ordered it, he said I think some consider that a girl's drink. Well, it was a very girly pink color. He didn't care at all and drank it happily.

I also understand how other men are not like this. I was previously married to one a million years ago. He could not be bothered to clean up after himself. I would ask him to please put his clothes in the hamper instead of leaving on the floor. Didn't ask him to do the laundry. Just put the dirty clothes in the hamper. Would go on a tirade about how he wasn't going to live in a sterile house. Um, just pick up your damn dirty clothes! Needless to say, that marriage didn't last (for many reasons).

When dating the current, long lasting (29 years today!) DH and we decided to get married I had to have a talk with him. I saw his apartment. I'd been living alone (with my young daughter) for a few years at that point and was very happy that my home was how I liked it. Organized and clean. I explained to him that I would not be able to live in a home like his apartment. His response - your way is good; my way is bad; we'll do it your way. I knew I'd made a smart choice! My mom was always amazed at how he cleaned up after dinner. My dad, and my previous H, certainly never did that.

One thing I will say, is that every marriage is different and as long as both people feel loved and valued, any old way of divvying up life's chores and duties is fine.

i agree with Mt and also, what works for one household might not work for another. Theres really no ’correct’ way; do what works for you 😊

Who remembers birthdays and anniversaries and writes cards, notes, sends presents, plans a gathering or whatever your family does?

Following up on myself here-I've thought about why and how I ended up doing the vast majority of the household management.

As in any relationship it's certainly a factor of our own personalities and traits, but I'm linking a semi-famous cartoon that beautifully explains the invisible (or mental) load in mine and many households:

You Should've Asked

“Who remembers birthdays and anniversaries and writes cards, notes, sends presents, plans a gathering or whatever your family does?”

DH is much better at remembering dates than I am! He’s also better at planning get-togethers, trips, gifts, wrapping gifts, etc.

One thing I will say, is that every marriage is different and as long as both people feel loved and valued, any old way of divvying up life's chores and duties is fine.

Yes, exactly. As long as one doesn't feel like they're unfairly holding a larger burden, it's all good.

DH has a ridiculously good memory...except for dates. When we met he could not tell me his parents' birthdays or wedding anniversary. The only dates he knew were his own birthday and his brother's. Thankfully these days he is reminded of these events by his electronic calendar but I still remind him every year to call/text.

I know a couple who is very happy. She was a stay at home mom until the kids went to school and then worked part time until they graduated from high school, then got a full time job. When she needed a new car she bought it and was responsible for making the monthly payments. (He paid most of the bills from his earnings). When they brought the new car home he held the keys until she had read the manual and he tested her to make sure she had adequate knowledge of her car before driving it. She asks his permission to go out and do things like going out with her friends or going to visit her younger siblings who live an hour away. She is still working full time. Her husband is now retired. She still does all the cleaning and laundry except she told me the other day that now she just washes and folds his laundry and he has to put it away. He handles all household financial decisions and pays the majority of household bills. They decide together how her earnings are spent.

They are very happy. She feels loved and protected, he feels respected.

Works well for them.

Do you think their sons will view women as equals?

How do you think he viewed the women who worked for him?

How would you feel about your daughter's prospect for promotion to a leadership position if she worked for his company?

How men treat their wives is often reflective of how they think of women in general and it impacts how they treat women in the workplace.

Running,

I agree entirely with the mental load discussion linked, but there is one thing missing (at least I did not see it mentioned.)

I bet if you asked men, they could also cite a pretty sizable mental load, too. For example, for many of them, the financial pressures of providing for a family, they might say, would dwarf every other mental load.

https://www.tlc.com/parenting/married-women-do-more-housework-than-single-moms--study-finds

I remember my mom and my aunts talking after they had all been widowed and saying how the old men who had lost their wives were all out looking for another wife to take care of them, but the old ladies who had lost a husband were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband. Been there, done that.

“I remember my mom and my aunts talking after they had all been widowed and saying how the old men who had lost their wives were all out looking for another wife to take care of them, but the old ladies who had lost a husband were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband. Been there, done that.”

.

That has not been my experience at all as a widowed woman who is remarried to a widowed man (10 yrs now) and who knows many other remarried widowed people.

It’s possibly a generational thing, although my dad has been divorced for over 20 years and certainly doesn’t need a wife to take care of him.

Wow, Jennifer. If she's happy, she's happy. But there is no way in he!! I'm asking my husband for permission to visit family/friends. And, no way would I put up with being treated like a child - not giving me keys to car I purchased with my money. Like, what?

It brings up another issue -- combined or separate money. We have combined money. Both our pay is deposited into our joint accounts. I know people who have separate money. I know that for some it works fine and for others it's a point of discontent. I cannot imagine having separate money.

For the one person I know that it works well for, her reasoning is she doesn't want to have to ask her husband when she wants to buy something. They had comparable incomes.

Another couple, I'm friends with the husband. Until they had their child and she stopped working, they had separate money. He made significantly more than she did. He didn't understand why I thought it was not a fair arrangement. My example was -- if he wants to buy a $200 pair of shoes, he can easily afford it. If she wants to, she cannot easily afford it. Why should she not benefit from his income in this way? He didn't have an answer for that other than he would buy them for her. Yes, but then she has to ask which is wrong. They stopped having separate money when she stopped making any money and stayed home with their child.

I bet if you asked men, they could also cite a pretty sizable mental load, too. For example, for many of them, the financial pressures of providing for a family, they might say, would dwarf every other mental load.

Absolutely, heavy lies the head that's got to balance the household budget whether it's her head or his.

I read a book years ago written by a woman in praise of the 'traditional' marital roles, which are being discussed and which are well illustrated by Jennifer's example.

Her thesis was that NOT managing finances in a marriage was a major positive benefit for a woman, because then she was not the one who had to worry and feel the pressure. I have very complicated feelings about that because on the one hand since childhood I have had a deep and unswerving drive to feel that I am capable and informed about how to financially support myself.

OTOH, I know all too well how it feels to be the one in a marriage taking care of all the financial planning and management. It is a lot of pressure.

As far as separate money it's been my observation that people in marriages who follow the joint account system often are extremely dismissive/negative about marriages in which the partners have some or all separate accounts.

Speaking for myself, husband and I used a yours-mine-ours system for years very successfully. Basically we figured out how much money we needed to run our household, and then we divided that amount by the percentage each of us earned and it went into what we called the house account. What remained went into individual accounts. It worked wonderfully well; our salaries changed over the years but it was always fair, if not necessarily equal and it always functioned smoothly. And that was with a range of situations from me going very PT after our kids were born, thus cutting my income by 2/3 for a few years to the last few years of my career when my income was higher than his.

That may also have been because the house account was always 99% of our total spending so the individual accounts ended up being mostly for gifts for each other, and over the years as our kids grew up and especially once we retired things just eventually fell into one pot. Now we are a joint account family and that works fine too.

So just as has been said about chores, etc I think it's less important how you manage your money as a couple and more important that you both agree with the system, you both feel trusted and secure and you manage it so as to take care of your family/joint commitments.

“were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband."

Liars, if you ask me!

JSK - on the separate money/accounts thing - I can tell you that it works perfectly for me/us. I wonder if it's related to age at marriage? Both my spouse and I were older and settled into our careers when we got married.

We've purchased several homes together and jointly own them. We agree who pays for what bill for common charges (gas/electric/groceries), we each agree how much we put towards savings/retirement goals - but because we're older, that still leaves each of us with a fair amount of discretionary income. I spend no time caring what he does with his, and he spends no time worrying about what I do with mine.

On his end, he buys fancier vehicles than I ever would. But I don't care and it's not ever a point of contention because it comes out of "his" money. All of our common expenses are fully accounted for in our system, so there's nothing to fight over with how each of us uses the remainder.

It works well for us anyway, thankfully. Zero arguments over money, ever. Now if only I could come up with a simple system for everything else! :)

DH and I got married later as well. It was my 2nd marriage. First for him. We were mid 30s. I don't think we even had a discussion about separate money. We just opened joint accounts and moved everything there.

I think it also may depend on how comparable the incomes are? I can see it working when they are similar. Not necessarily the same, but not different by a multiplier. Even then, it's not a system that I would want, but we're all different.

Maybe it works for us because we don't argue about money. We are in agreement about when/if to make large purchases. And we each make our own daily/smaller/shopping purchases without issue. I can definitely see if a couple were inclined to argue about where/how to spend money, separate accounts could be the solution. Note: not at all suggesting you'd argue about money, Ally. Just thinking if DH and I did, that might be a solution.

My husband and I were polar opposites about money. I was raised poor, he was raised working class but with two parents working for very large international companies and they were well compensated with great benefits. But his mother was a 'we don't have enough money' type and his dad LOVED to spend money, esp on big boy toys. His mom reined him in but once in a while would 'let' him buy something nice and shiny and new and made him feel like he was the 'man of the house'. She did all the financial stuff. My husband absorbed her attitudes about scarcity of money and according to him we could NEVER afford anything. But he also was used to an opinionated woman, so we meshed well, there.

I have a very laissez faire attitude about money. I decided we should buy a house early on (we were 24) and because he qualified for the GI bill, we bought a really cute little home. I really had to convince him that it would be fine; we could make the payments, but he was a nervous wreck. We had to move for his job and sold if within a year, pretty much breaking even. Moved to a place with no home inventory, so I decided we should buy land and build one. He literally almost died at the thought of that, but I persisted. We had a lot of arguments about all purchases in those days. I always 'won' in that we eventually made the purchases after much gnashing of teeth by him. Every car, every home, even though we didn't carry a lot of debt, always could pay for what we bought, his confidence never changed....it was always going to be the end of us and I knew it was his mom's voice speaking.

Finally, with our last home purchase, a bit more $ than we thought we would spend (but found a house that we loved so much), when he started in with his 'we can't afford this' I finally just said - you've been making that argument for 12 years now, we've bought or built two homes, we've made money on both, we have a nice car and truck that are both paid for and no credit card debt, so I am NOT having this argument with you again! It was clear he wasn't going to change and that I was not going to do without, so I just did it. And eventually he always came around to being glad we'd done what I wanted.

Compromise didn't work in this situation because we NEVER would have purchased anything. No amount of money in the bank would have made up for his scarcity beliefs. We took turns over the years paying the bills; one of us would get sick of doing it - or he'd get nervous I was going to bankrupt us, lol, and want to take over. That all worked out fine.

He was a good housekeeper/cleaner and did all the vacuuming and cleaning the bathrooms, cleaned up after me in the kitchen (I am a terribly messy cook), emptied the dishwasher...all the jobs I really hate doing. I had to take them on after he died, but I don't like it, lol.

@ mtnrdredux_gw

“were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband."

Liars, if you ask me!

No one asked you and that is an offensive thing to say.

Mom on the right with her three sisters. Mom was born on August 17th 1920, one day before they ratified Article 19 providing women a guaranteed right to vote in this country.

They worked their whole lives caring for husbands, putting them through school and taking care of them into retirement. Not one of them re-married or dated after their husbands passed away or had any interest in re-marrying and taking care of another man. They had each other and their kids. They didn't need a man for companionship. They didn't need to find another man for financial security. What would have another man done to enhance their lives?

“I remember my mom and my aunts talking after they had all been widowed and saying how the old men who had lost their wives were all out looking for another wife to take care of them, but the old ladies who had lost a husband were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband. Been there, done that.”

Yeah, when i hear that said, it is often in jest, and i was largely kidding but if you want to carry on about it, the fact is I find it entirely disingenuous as well as misandrist. It is a platitude and I don't think it rings true.

All relationships entail work and sacrifice, that is part of what it means to care about someone. And, yes, of course, people want to feel that there is give and take (though you don't need to balance some unwritten ledger!).

Nonetheless I think at all points in our lives, all of us, regardless of gender or orientation, would welcome a a healthy give and take romantic relationship.

What would have another man done to enhance their lives?

The truth is everyone wants romantic love and companionship. That enhances one's life. Yes, there are many other forms of love and companionship that are deeply satisfying, too. But that does not change the simple biological fact that all of us want both. It also does not mean that people cannot live happy and fulfilling lives without both, either. Many people live happy lives without siblings or children, too, but your relatives were fortunate to have them.

My marriage is a second one for both of us. We're celebrating seven years in October.

We each do our own laundry (he is better at it than I am, btw)

He empties the dw because he knows I abhor that job.

I do the vacuuming and clean the bathrooms because he wouldn't notice they needed cleaning

I take out the trash, he brings the empty cans back

We both cook

We both grocery shop.

Yard work is from a landscaping company, but I putter around the gardens

We're each responsible for our own car upkeep

He pays most of the bills and does the taxes

I do all the house maintenance scheduling

Neither of us makes the bed

If he leaves a dirty pan on the stove, I'll wash it. I do it because I know he doesnt' expect me to.

Our life together works because we want to do nice things for each other.

Oh, and I will use the term "Ladies" at Longwood when addressing more than one woman. If it is a mixed gender group I might say "folks". No one seems to mind.

The truth is everyone wants romantic love and companionship....But that does not change the simple biological fact that all of us want both. It also does not mean that people cannot live happy and fulfilling lives without both, either.

Sorry, I beg to differ. I can think of so many amazing women who I knew as a younger woman who deliberately chose the path you're saying is only ever the unwanted path. And even apart from my experience, I don't accept that this is in any way a biological fact.

ETA: I hopped back onto the board to see if anybody was talking about the golden bach news lol.

Yes, did you see that? It is all a sham. I wonder if they will do any more golden ones.

Jojo, I agree, that is what a marriage should be. The details don't matter it is the fact that you do for each other.

I remember my mom and my aunts talking after they had all been widowed and saying how the old men who had lost their wives were all out looking for another wife to take care of them, but the old ladies who had lost a husband were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband. Been there, done that.

This rings true today, anecdotally, IME.

I find that to be true, too. Especially in older generations where the women often were responsible for all the meal prep and most of the housework and also held paying jobs. Both husband and wife retire, but she still is responsible for meal prep and the house. He often didn't have as much at home responsibility and when he retired, he actually got some more leisure time. Or else he suddenly takes a micromanaging interest in how she's doing things and tries to manage her days. I see so many women (many on these boards) who take responsibility for medical appts and carrying out Dr's orders, because their husbands won't do it. If a woman has had all of that in her earlier marriage, I think a lot of them don't want to sign up for another end-of-life session of those responsibilities.

the old ladies who had lost a husband were in no hurry to take on the work of another husband.

I guess I have a different view of husbands. My FIL, starting at age 93 drove every day to visit his wife in the nursing home. The home came to expect him and snuck him lunch. During COVID, he would stand outside and visit her at her first floor window (no lunch). She passed away a week ago.

My condolences to your FIL, Mtn. I do believe that his actions in the finality of his wife's life isn't what the above is referring to.

Mtn, I’m so sorry for your family’s loss. ❤️

@mtnrdredux_gw, my condolences on your loss.

@MtnRdRedux what a wonderful example of devotion and love your father-in-law is. A tremendous loss for your family; condolences.

Thank you all. I think we all feel that it would be very ungrateful of us to mourn the loss of my nearly 99yo MIL, but we wholeheartedly celebrated her life. Sorry for the tangent but it occurred to me I suppose in part because I do think sometimes women like to "man bash" and I know so many example of devoted husbands (including, as I have remarked to my husband, lots of wonderful stories here that illustrate wonderful husbands).

Sorry for the delay; we could not get a reservation until 10pm tonight and just got back from dinner! Let's just say we were the only ones in the place that needed phone lights to read the menu.

Sorry to hear of your Mother-in-law’s passing, Mtn. I hope that your Father-in-law (and all of his family) can adjust to this new phase with happy memories that can ease the grief.

I am sorry to hear of the loss of your MIL, Mtn ... but what an extraordinary long life she lived and I am sure it was richer and more beautiful with the clear love and adoration of her husband.

Mtn - I’m sorry for your loss.

Please accept my condolences as well.

Losing one's mother is never easy and always too soon, IME.

Mtn - Truly sorry for your loss. It is truly a blessing that she had such a wonderful bond with her husband and that he and she had the support of the larger family.

Mtn- My condolences to your family.

I also send my condolences, mtn. It's never easy, no matter how old they are, or how old we are when we lose a parent.

---

If he leaves a dirty pan on the stove, I'll wash it. I do it because I know he doesnt' expect me to.

Our life together works because we want to do nice things for each other.

This is perfectly said. Yes, that is what is so important - wanting to do things for each other. And it's the everyday things that matter most.

I’m sorry to hear about your MIL, Mtn. She must have been as tough as nails to survive in a nursing home through Covid. You all must feel like an era has ended ❤️

Sending my condolences, Mtn and thank you for sharing that story.

Our life together works because we want to do nice things for each other.

jsk: This is perfectly said. Yes, that is what is so important - wanting to do things for each other. And it's the everyday things that matter most.

I'm not sure who jsk is quoting there, but I agree with both comments. And I remember long ago reading about the joy that thanking your spouse for those simple actions brings to both of you.

I quoted jojoco from 2 days ago. She nailed it!

@jojoco Same! I was telling DH about this thread and quoted Jojo too!

How thankful you can be, mtn, for the fine relationship that your family had, and I offer my condolences to you both and to others in your family. Perhaps your FIL would appreciate hearing of the good wishes offered from your friends here.

With regard to which partner, or both, who carry out which decisions and chores to keep the family's operation going, it is important that each have substantial knowledge and in-depth experience of carrying out the whole lot of them.

In case of the death of one, the other needs to know how to manage the routines fairly comfortably in order not to feel more or less at sea with no boat added to the massive grieving. An important aspect of pre-death training, perhaps not given enough emphasis. It has importace also in case of disabilty.

Learning how these various things are done, over a period, might help them work through some misunderstandings and differences, and their views on their attitudes, actions and roles, and those of the partner, as well.

May this old fart recommend that you share this suggestion with a number of friends, as well as folk who deal with people, such as medical and psychological folks, mental health helpers and clergy.

ole joyfuelled