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labbzzyy

Will I regret not getting inset cabinets?

labbzzyy
last month
last modified: last month

We are doing the standard - knocking out walls - kitchen renovation - where our kitchen will be long and not very wide (13'). I had my heart set on inset but with all of the cabnetry I just don't think we can afford it. Will I regret moving to full overlay when it's finished? Has anyone else made the choice to move from inset to full overlay and have any thoughts? It's a big price difference (for us) around the 15-25K mark.


**EDIT** I added additional comments and pictures below in the thread :)

Comments (78)

  • bry911
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I am going to attempt to put this whole extra room in frameless thing to bed once and for all.

    So here is a sketch-up of a common kitchen arrangement.



    I am assuming a 30" cooktop, a 30" sink cabinet, 15" trash pull-out, and dishwasher. It is a fairly standard kitchen arrangement. Because I personally don't like varying frames on inset cabinets I skinned the cabinets beside the dishwasher and the end cabinets. However, it is pretty common to have varying frame widths on inset cabinets. Here is an example of a varying frame width that I personally don't like.



    You can see that the frame between cabinets is bigger than the frame on the end. i like consistent frames everywhere. So I skinned those edges, this reduced my useable interior space by 3" total, but I think it is worth it.

    Here is a picture of the frames and you can see where I skinned it in green.



    Here is the exact same footprint with frameless cabinets (front only).



    As you can see I didn't need to skin beside the dishwasher with frameless but I did have to add a filler in the corner (in red).

    I measured the width of the drawer openings in both models, excluding the sink cabinet and trash pullout (although they would have been the same in both models).

    Results: The frameless cabinet in a 12' x 10' cabinet run had 178.5 linear inches of drawer opening width. The inset had 180 linear inches of drawer opening width. Even with the 3" of skins on the inset cabinets, they had more drawer width. However, drawer height is lower if you use traditional inset (modern inset omit the frame between cabinets and would not have different drawer heights) but you are only losing about 1" of your drawer height. Open all your drawers and see how many have items within 1" of the top. If that bothers you then maybe consider modern inset instead of traditional inset. For most people, width is more important than height. You lose no drawer depth as the drawer boxes are the same.

    Inset wall cabinets are slightly roomier than frameless assuming they are made 1/2" deeper (which is standard). So there is really no need to model and measure that.

    If you are doing full custom you can actually get drawer boxes that are 1/4" bigger with inset than you can with frameless. This is because drawer glides require 3/16" clearance between the drawer and the glide, so a combined 3/8". Inset glides can be installed to the sides rather than the frame and you only need 1/16" clearance on each side, giving you 1/4" more drawer width. In the above model our inset drawers could actually have 182 linear inches of drawer width or 185” if you don’t skin the sides (which most people don’t).

    Many consumers like the aesthetic of thicker face frames and might add an inch to the widths above. Typically the skins would be eliminated with the thicker frames and so you could lose as much as 4.5% of your linear drawer width (your wall cabinets would still be slightly bigger). However, I strongly suspect that most of us could make due with 95.5% of the drawer space we have now if we really like the look more.


    Edit: Corrected the spacer in the frameless, it was too small in my original calculation.

  • HU-910663146
    last month



    You can put a Lemans unit in your blind corner, which turns that into usable space.

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  • cawaps
    last month

    I think someone who wants to evoke a truly vintage kitchen might regret not doing inset, but I suspect that no one else would give it a second thought once the kitchen was done and in use.


    I went from 100-year-old inset cabinets to frameless and couldn't be happier.

  • chispa
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I'm on these forums, so I pay attention to design details! I went to dinner a few weeks ago at a friend's new build. The kitchen cabinets are white and I don't remember much else ... and I was looking around complimenting things as it was my first visit, but inset versus full overlay wouldn't have made any difference as we enjoyed a fun evening with several friends.

  • PRO
    Debbi Washburn
    last month

    Are you having to shift from one manufacturer to another? Is that the reason for that huge price swing? I would suggest shopping around before giving up.

    What brands are you looking at?

  • PRO
    Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
    last month

    Your kitchen is very nice, vjs12, but the idea that inset cabinets would make a kitchen look smaller is really silly. If you don't want inset or don't want to spend the money on the upgrade, that's one thing, but thinking that the kitchen will look bigger with full overlay doors just doesn't make sense.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    The OP STILL hasn't answered one question. What are the go with appliances? The counter tops?

    I'll hope the answer comes back with Sub Zero ........and?

  • labbzzyy
    Original Author
    last month

    Hi all - thank you so much for all of you insight and feedback! I appreciate the time that you took out of your day and your kind and thoughtful and probing questions and advice.

    From when I posted, the designer got back with the new quote to move to full overlay with the end panels, and the quote was about $20k difference, also moving to new cabinet company (moving from DuraSupreme to Wellborn cabinets with a mix of Select / Premier cabinets)

    Our house is not a McMansion nor vintage - just a house built in the 70s that has the potential for a large kitchen that we would get a lot more use out of than a house with a dining room (we turned the current dining room into a snug anyways). We are doing the kitchen for us with no plans of reselling, which is why we're ok with getting rid of the dining room and I just want to make the most gorgeous kitchen possible since I plan on only doing this once :) (and because I feel like we're making such big changes to the house and omg the anxiety lol and this is not a drop in the bucket for us)

    I am happy to hear those that did not regret moving to full overlay and am completely floored with how nice it looks with the end panels as well. Also, I love the kind insight of chispa who was dead on when saying "i pay attention to these things, and i went and saw my friends house and just noticed it was a nice kitchen". That really helped put things in perspective for me as well.


    The appliances will be mismatched - thermador freedom cooktop, jenn-air downdraft (the cooktop will be in the island which will be about 14 ft long), sub zero panel ready fridge, wolf steam and convection double oven).


    Attached are some renderings - thank you all again so much for your feedback




  • PRO
    Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
    last month

    Can you post the floor plan with all the dimensions, clearances, and adjacencies?

    From the looks of the perspective renderings, it looks to be a bit tight.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I don't want to get my head bashed in.....so I am going to refrain.

    This feels like a ton of cabinetry for the space. The aisle clearances look inadequate.

    More than that, I will get yelled at for thinking or saying it could be better.

    A 2 dimension plan with all dimensions would make it easier to comment intelligently. jmho.

  • labbzzyy
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    thanks all - unfortunately I do not have dimensions right now (we have not formally signed off going through with this designer so we do not own anything yet). Agreed with the tightness but she said the clearances will be at 37"


    Also - the original plan for taking over the dining room was the build a walk in pantry (since we have 0 storage space in our house). We did not like the way that it looked which is why we moved to the pantry cabinets.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    This is cabinet and design overkill. I will warn you, I won't be alone in the comment.

    Thirty seven inches? No please....

    IT appears you have a cabinet salesperson/designer. Not a pro KD. Please, please..do not sign off on this.

    Show the original kitchen if you can?


  • cpartist
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Was this designed by an independent KD or a salesperson in a store who calls themself a KD? Because it looks like the latter.

  • cpartist
    last month
    last modified: last month

    37” clearances are not nearly enough and show that she doesnt have a clue what she is doing. YOU need to measure your space as is with all dimensions Graph paper is your friend. Then post the 2D layout.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    No kidding. no WONDER the upgrade to inset was so pricey. .........just no.

  • PRO
    Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
    last month

    My first kitchen renovation was planned by an Interior Designer with very good credentials. Unfortunately, she had an island in a 13' wide kitchen, that had 36-37" clearances between the perimeter cabinets and island. At that point in my life, there was no Houzz and I didn't know what I didn't know. If I tell you it was very tight and annoying to work in, please believe me. When I renovated it I chose a peninsula instead of an island. The peninsula is larger and more practical and useful than that small 30x50" island with a prep sink in it.

    labbzzyy thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
  • cpartist
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Oy I just saw the cooktop is on the island? No, just no. How do you intend to vent it?

    And with 37" aisles between the cooktop and the sink, how do you propose someone get around you if you're cooking or even washing a dish?

    The bare minimum for aisles is 42" from counter to whatever is sticking out the furthest. So from island counter edge to the handle of your fridge or dishwasher for example. NOT from cabinet edge to cabinet edge! And 42" is for a kitchen where only one person cooks. If you have more than one person cooking or helping, you really need aisles that are 48" wide.

    And where do you intend to prep?

    We normally take food out of the pantry/fridge (zone), bring it to the sink (zone) to rinse, then prep between the cooktop and the sink (zone) before bringing it to the cooktop (zone) to cook. Cleanup can be the same sink but you don't want the dishwasher in the prep zone like you have. The only place you have to prep near the sink is over the dishwasher because the area to the left of the sink isn't long enough to prep with that cabinet to the counter. (36" is the bare minimum for prep)

    And you don't want to be crossing zones as you cook. So you ideally go from fridge to sink to prep to cooktop without crossing zones.

    And honestly, what you have looks more like a cabinet salesroom than a working kitchen. I'm sorry but it's just bad and before you start worrying about whether or not you should do inset (I wouldn't in a 1970's house unless you've changed the whole house to feel like it was built before 1930), you need to get a working kitchen floor plan.

    We did not like the way that it looked which is why we moved to the pantry cabinets.

    There is nothing wrong with pantry cabinets. I actually prefer them to a walk in pantry. However they need to be designed to work with the kitchen.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    It's a downdraft, but that doesn't mean the cook should be on an ISLAND that should not be there!

    The kitchen is too narrow for that island. The cabinets under the whatever it is, are not helping.

    I will add,,,,,

    None of this is meant to offend the op.

    But a start over from scratch, with a scaled drawing of the existing spaces involved - every wall, window, every foot and inch, would be your best bet, here.

    My guess is you could cut your cabinetry expense by a full third. .......and have a lot better kitchen.

  • cpartist
    last month

    And why is there a sink in the eating area? Where if someone is sitting in the chair, they'd have to get up for someone else to actually use that sink?

  • labbzzyy
    Original Author
    last month

    oof...you all know how to break someone's heart...


    the kitchen was measured and designed by me...based on what i wanted. I measured everything down to the windows, the wall that I am removing, etc. (the "whatever it is" is a tv - i want a tv in my kitchen while I cook and relax!) and the designer helped me bring my vision to life. The bench seating under the big window is going to be comfy seating in my kitchen so I can hang out and read and relax in my kitchen.


    I originally had 42" clearance in the walkways but she had a fun idea to add another cabinet area under the tv that's 12" which is where the cut down clearance came from, and i thought that was a fun idea! i liked how it looked (and having 0 storage now, having more storage sounded amazing) but completely get your points - maybe it is too tight - thank you for that feedback.


    The built in bench / beverage area has a sink because i wanted a dedicated hot water / filtered water sink. They argued against it but it's not the main kitchen sink, it's a beverage center, and will make my life easier.


    I think the "whole design is just awful" hurts a bit. Thank you all again for your feedback and your perspective. I'll end this here (this is what I get for being a first time poster and maybe a bit naive). thank you all.

  • chispa
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @labbzzyy, please stay. Just remember that people are internalizing the information and telling you to do what they would prefer, if it was their kitchen. You need to read through comments, think about what people are saying, see if it makes sense for you, use what works for you and throw out the rest. Please don't take it personally. People here really want you to end up with the best space for you.

    I would post your kitchen dimensions and see what some of the people here come up with for a kitchen plan. Doesn't cost you anything. Maybe some things will make sense for you, if not, ignore it all. No one will know! ;-)

    In both the kitchens I designed, I have placed my fridge in a spot that most here would say is too far away. I thought about it and still did what worked for me and my family. No regrets.

    Is that a bench by the window? Is that window low? Could it be raised so you could have cabinets an L shape kitchen with the island. Move sink under the window and cooktop/range where the sink is ?

    Maybe get rid of the cabinet under the TV so you can increase your isles. For the TV use a Samsung The Frame TV so you have some "art" to look at when not watching TV. This is my Frame TV with an after-market frame to make it more art-like.


    labbzzyy thanked chispa
  • chinacatpeekin
    last month

    OP, I hope you return. Be brave; consider the advice here and then take it or don’t. Many here have lots of experience, and no ax to grind. They really want you to have the best kitchen possible! I’m no pro, but it sounds like you’re working with a cabinet salesperson, not a kitchen designer. Perhaps hiring an actual kitchen design professional would save you money and grief, especially with a narrow kitchen, and removing a wall. Have you researched reviews of Wellborn cabinets? My impression is they’re not great. Have you researched aisle clearances necessary in a kitchen? My sister has a narrow island in a narrow kitchen not unlike your plan, and I can tell you she regrets it every day-everyone has to squeeze and sidle by to move around the kitchen. It just doesn’t fit. Take a deep breath and take it slowly.

  • PRO
    Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
    last month

    OP I hope you return also. Most all of the pros that responded to you are very experienced and have your best interests at heart. They did not mean to break your heart, even if blunt.

    But there is one in particular who is extremely critical and hurtful and never posts any constructive criticism or suggestions. You can figure out who that is and ignore or flag their response. I certainly shall.

    But you'll find out that there is a lot of good advice given here and if you can put aside the hurt feelings you will get a much better kitchen than what you've proposed.

    labbzzyy thanked Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
  • Susan L
    last month

    Dear OP it’s a lot better to validate your design before construction than to regret it after! If you want to read the NKBA Kitchen and Bathroom design guidelines, which contains the standard clearances that are discussed by the pros here, you can buy the book yourself and read the whole thing in a couple of hours. https://www.amazon.com/Kitchen-Bathroom-Planning-Guidelines-Standards/dp/1119216001

  • PRO
    Debbi Washburn
    last month

    @labbzzyy Please don't go. Quite often people will swing a pendulum too far when designing their kitchens - ie if its dark now they do all white, if there's not enough storage they put in a lot of pantries. There needs to be a happy medium to design.

    It is easy to do a pretty kitchen, but much harder to do a well functioning space.

    Here is something for you to think about - you don't know what you don't know. A good kitchen designer will walk you through all the pros and cons to your ideas and help you to " see" what the space will be like by walking you around their showroom , having you stand in walkways of different sizes ( I even move chairs around so folks can get the idea of the space ).

    It is hard to hear the truth or take in help that may seem brutal. The people here mean well and there are a lot of very talented folks that want you to have the best space possible.

    I don't believe your designer is giving you that - they are just giving you what you asked for - there is a big difference.

    Lets start with some basics - do people have 37" walkways - yes; are they really ok - not really. The cooktop on the island? There is tons of discussion on that - I like it but I hate a downdraft - I would prefer a hood. I would offset the sink and cooktop - not enough room for 2 fannies in that space. Get more counter back by the wall oven ( not really a fan of seating right by the wall oven , it limits the used of that end of the countertop ). The bar area is a nice idea, but wrong execution - you always need to plan that there is a butt in every seat - you can't get to the sink or open the bev ref.

    This space has great potential to be an awesome kitchen. We can help!

  • cpartist
    last month

    Again like others have ssid, while the criticism is tough to take, most of us just want you to have the best kitchen possible (Including the tv!)

    If you post a 2d measured floor plan I bet youd wind up with a much better layout, including your beverage sink, etc

  • Tish
    last month
    last modified: last month



    The MINIMUM aisle is 42” for a single user. Most kitchens have multiple users and need 48”.

    Downdrafts are ineffective at reversing the naturally rising plumes of heat, odors, grease, steam, and smoke. Worse, with a gas cooker, they pull the flames away from the pan, and affect the heat transmission.

    You for sure need to check out the NKBA design rules, since the cabinet seller who was looking forward to a big fat commission check doesn't seem to know them. You need an actual independent Kitchen Designer. Someone to tell you the uncomfortable to hear truth about this being a poor design that wastes money. Because it is.

    https://media.nkba.org/uploads/2022/05/Kitchen-Planning-Guidelines.pdf

  • AnnKH
    last month

    labbzzyy, I appreciate how hard it is to hear criticism of your design. But if this is your very first kitchen design, you don't know what you don't know - especially if you have a "professional" telling you what you want to hear (while greatly increasing their commission in the process). The folks here have centuries of collective experience, and honestly want you to have the very best kitchen for your space and your needs. Of course everyone's needs are different, so opinions will vary, but certain design truths are consistent: aisle width, ventilation, and flow being near the top of the list.

    Give these generous experts a chance to help you design a new kitchen that not only looks lovely, but is a joy to work in.

  • HU-261374307
    last month

    You will not have regrets over not getting inset. You will have huge regrets if you move forward with that as your plan. It is not even workable. It would be a shame to spend any money on such dysfunction.


    Hire an actual kitchen designer.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    More great kitchens have come from ”ohhhhnoooooo” thteads than you can imagine!

    Think of this like a doctor visit!

    Its not personal!

    Your goal is to get a kitchen that works for you, , that suits your home, and fills the dream.

    But you have to ” color inside the lines”?

    Your crayon got ambitious:) ?

    labbzzyy thanked JAN MOYER
  • knlundeen
    last month

    Just here to say that I'm a homeowner in a similar situation. My post is dead right now as I'm in process of getting some estimates to determine how big of a reno we are doing. But, I'll be back once we figure out that part. It does hurt to hear the ideas that you have dreamt and walked in your own home or taped out are 'bad'. Ultimately you get to decide what to implement and what not to as others have said.


    I was also considering narrow aisles and a narrow long island at one point....and then pivoted to something potentially far more expensive and loses the dining room like your plan. Who knows, I might swing all the way back to removing little/no walls and calling it more of a refresh. That will take a big mentality shift, though. Not meaning to highjack your post in any way or say you should consider such a mentality shift. Just offering comfort/solidarity. It's so hard to decide how much it's all 'worth'.


    FWIW I think you got great ideas about the full overlay option and I don't think you would miss the inset. But, only you can decide that. I can't remember if anyone mentioned that inset will show the nicks and dings around the frame so, that may be one thing against it. If you were going with stained wood, I believe they say it is easier to touch up. Just a thought.


    I wondered about taking the banquette out of the bar area and going to the other side with the window seat? Then moving some of that cabinetry over into the bar area? Interested to see how things go for you!

  • chinacatpeekin
    last month

    I also wonder about living without a dining table. Do you have a place where 6/8/12 people can sit together and enjoy one another’s company while they eat?

  • mcarroll16
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Can I ask, why such a large kitchen and such a small single dining space? The balance is odd--you have a kitchen sized to feed an army and cramped seating for only 6. Did you talk through everything with a kitchen designer who developed a good sense of your actual cooking patterns and needs?

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Im not going to wonder a thing, yet.

    Feet and inches are always important- nowhere more so than litchens and baths

    Another truth? Feeling deprived of things for a while ( storage) can lead you to overcompensate.

    Getting a great outcome is finding the balance!

    You don’t make xmas cookies in July, you dont can tomatoes in February! Dont let the supplies take your space 12 months of the year.

    A new kitchen makes cooking a pleasure , enhances your home- but it will not change YOU!

    A lot of thought should be put into realistic

    daily use- not what if i want. Not two holidays a year! The 95%

    use. Then? Color inside the lines lol

    .

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    One more............?

    "The built in bench / beverage area has a sink because i wanted a dedicated hot water / filtered water sink. They argued against it but it's not the main kitchen sink, it's a beverage center, and will make my life easier. "

    No, it won't. IT MATTERS NOT what the water lands in! Get up and make tea with an instant hot at the regular sink. How many years have you been drinking tea in the old kitchen: )? ( I assume for tea )

    This is a 1970 home, not 8000 spanking new sq feet in Beaver Creek, Co. , with a 450 k kitchen!

    Call this outside the lines, design over kill, over think and "they" were right in this case at least.

    It is a huge fallacy that being yesss!!!! ed to death will get you what you "want".

    The "NO" word? It can be your best friend and so too the person you want to hate as he/she verbalizes same.

    A great designer isn't paid for you to love her. Not UNTIL you write the last check, with pure joy as the signature on what is many times? What you never knew you wanted: )

  • labbzzyy
    Original Author
    last month

    Hi all :) thank you for staying with me and please be patient with my sketch - I measured 100x but know I will be off a bit - I am a first timers with this sketching tool...


    My requests:

    • more prep space - the penninsula is typically a dumping ground of everything (since we park in the garage in the basement and come up every day through the basement). The garbage is currently in the penninsula so I am usually prepping there amongst the dumping ground things. The space next to the stove isn't really practical
    • more storage for food - this is important - i have a lot of growing kids in our life, I wanted to have an easy way for them to find food, and store food, and be less dark and gloomy and easy to use
    • more storage for appliances - i have to keep my mixer and other things i use regularly in my basement because i do not have a place for them
    • more storage for platters and random appliances and tableclothes and juicers that i don't use but might one day?
    • less pointless storage - our two corner cabinets are the bane of my existance
    • more light - everything is dark wood, so we thought having the snug window and the light from the living room, plus a whiter kitchen, help bring some light into our world
    • We are an all electric house so gas ranges aren't in play - I do not care about hoods or making them my focal point - they're fine, but they don't excite me (big huge slabs of islands excite me hah)
    • We liked where the table is now since the family room is our larger room where we are as a family. We like sitting at the table and talking to people in the family room that are on couches, etc, so we didn't think that would flow well with the pantry area (and then that whole side of the house would just be dead space for the most part)
    • We like to entertain and have people over often and they gravitate towards the table and penninsula - we have never missed removing our dining room furniture and converting it into a snug, and only have wished for more island space, which is how the idea came to formation :)


    We did not want to mess with the window in our "snug" because it is so large and would be so expensive to change.


    ok, thank you again for your kindness. I know I wrote a lot, and you've all been patient and maybe this can help those of us with a 13' kitchen in the future <3 (knlundeen it's a group effort!)





  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    WHOA Nellie!!!

    Let's start at the beginning: Your wish list edited

    Much of it reasonable and some? Not so much.

    Weekend homework? Kitchen take apart, purge, how often do I use it exercise



    Next............

    We hear you. Family, friends all important. More pictures please. All around the house. Look at the shape of the space you have.here..1/4 inch to one foot. Essentially a 42' x 13 and 14.5 ' space of difficult.



    rotated to match ABOVE




    Now......look at this below, especially far left. THIS IS CALLED SUICIDE $$$$



    TRUTH of all homes? The coloring inside the lines concept. .......which in your case, needs a reality check.

    This is a kitchen where "reasonable" comes into play, where you get a full induction range, an extra oven perhaps.

    I've got "kitchen pals" here

    @cpartist

    @rebunky

    @ Mark Bischack

    I'm sure at some point one or more will jump in-

    In the meantime? Please add jpegs of ALL that surrounds this existing kitchen space.

    This is N.E.V.E.R going to be about inset cabinets. Take that to the bank: )

    ...Jpegs of surroundings, please and thank you when you have a moment.

    The best thing you could give us? Your whole living floor......as you did in your measure above: )

    Take your time, IF you feel up to it!

    labbzzyy thanked JAN MOYER
  • cpartist
    last month

    I have to gree withJan Show how the kitchen relates to the rest ofthe floor. It doesnt have to be as accurate but we need to see the pathways from the other rooms, etc

  • PRO
    Minardi
    last month

    This is the proverbial 200 pound sack of wish lists in a 5 pound sugar sack of a house. You just about need a different house to get all you want.

  • barncatz
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Hope you don't mind if I share a link to an article discussing how kitchen looks have become the "fast fashion" of homes. It was illustrated by this photo, showing a kitchen considered outdated by NY luxury apartment buyers. I assume most of us are not in that rarified category but the article presents a kitchen reno cautionary tale.



    https://www.curbed.com/article/dated-interior-design-renovation-styles-2024.html

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    Fantastic article and too true .

    Unless you love living in a war zone every five years? You get your head around the fact that you will not EVER be in the moment, as the moment keeps changing.!! It a case of ever moving goal posts . Absurd? Yes.

    More absurd? Think about this:

    These rip outs in luxury quarters, are paid for by hedge fund managers, bankers , corporate attorneys, Wall Street types. Highly educated in Ivy League bastions of liberal outlook.................and they're the same folks telling YOU to get rid of your gas stove, to stop eating burgers, to bike/ don't drive, to cough up the cash for an E.V. All this....

    As they put the five year old. 350 k kitchen in dumpster!

    Just think about the wallowing - in - consignment brown furniture, all the natural red oak floors ripped out, and more .

    Sadly...... my generation, and those more recent by a few decades have not known discomfort. Have not known real struggle as my grand parents were well aware.

    The judgement day will come, and we're all guilty. ..........yes, even me, especially me and my ilk . Clients want, and they get.

    We'd all do quite well to close our eyes just a bit, to the never ending temptation of a moving GOAL POST, and change the game.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    I don't want to hijack the thread, so back on track.......

    Not eloquently stated above but true:

    "A 200lb sack wish list in 5' sugar sack".

    Many things on the list are absolutely valid, your dream is "valid" as all dreams are.

    BUT

    Share as much as you like.....post the rest, knowing that we know not the number of kids, their gender as in eat you out of house and home teen boys, or whatever: )

    Just remember, you can have some of what you want all of the time, most of what you want SOME of the time, but never will you get ALL of what you want in this house, or this kitchen footprint. If you attempt it? You will be out a pile of money, and you won't enjoy the new space, any more than you enjoy this current space.

    labbzzyy thanked JAN MOYER
  • Tish
    last month

    Is THIS house in THIS neighborhood worthy of the 250K remodel? If so, forge ahead with a good kitchen designer.


    If No, or Maybe, keep gathering info and planning. But maybe plan for something quick, and cheaply cosmetic, to get the home on the market. Then move on to the bigger home with the bigger kitchen.

  • cpartist
    last month

    Excellent article and so true.

    For those of us not in the rarified ranks of the hedge fund managers, etc, probably the best thing we could do is work with the house we have. Meaning if your house is from the 1960's don't try and make it look like a Joanna Gaines kitchen or a sleek Poggenpohl kitchen but something that fits the feel of the house. Bad design is a mish mosh of styles while good design works with what is there.

    labbzzyy thanked cpartist
  • bry911
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I really don't see how an article about how people are renovating luxury apartments in New York has to do with most people who come here for advice. I mean one of the buildings mentioned in the article, 53 W 53rd, has condo fees that average far more than most people pay in mortgages. So, I don't think it news to anyone that people paying $250,000 a year in condo fees are changing things in their baths and kitchens. If that is news to you, then great.

    I just don't see that this article is that relevant to most of us. In fact, I believe most people suffer from the opposite problem, refusing to fully embrace new things so we end up with a muddy American style that people fully embrace.

    Case in point... I love frameless cabinets in modern European style kitchens, but few people do that. In those kitchens the cabinets rarely go to the ceiling, if they do it is almost certainly to an oversized soffit. They don't have crown and they rarely have light rails, in fact, they are most often galleys and rarely even turn corners.

    Instead of doing that, we slap fillers all over the place, add a light rail and a crown that basically turns them into a Frankenstein's monster of inset accents on frameless kitchens while pretending that inset cabinets only belong in more traditional homes.

    Now, before anyone gets too upset with me for my view, please realize that my wife wanted Frankenstein's monster of frameless cabinets with crown to the ceiling that turned a corner and I put my foot down... and built frameless cabinets with a crown to the ceiling that turned a corner.

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Place
    last month

    Agree Jan. That IS a very interesting article...I've already forwarded it to all of my design industry friends. Wish there was another post for that article alone. This is one reason I've always said, design for the architecture and you'll have a much better chance having a timeless design.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    @kitchen Place

    Im with you!

    Stay tuned :)

  • PRO
    Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
    last month

    I agree, Kitchen Place--you could start a post on that article, I'm sure it will get a lot of traffic.

  • PRO
    Debbi Washburn
    last month

    @labbzzyy

    I had some time today! I am not as good of a designer as some folks on here but I love a good challenge. Here is a thought I came up with for your design:

    - since the room is so long , break it into workable sections - 2 entertaining ends and a centralized work zone.

    - The island is super long - if you did one level of top it would have a seam so break it up with an overlap of a wood top or butcherblock that is thicker

    - the extra sink and bev ref are moved to a more easily accessible place.

    - the table area can have a nice built in side board for serving off of and additional storage.

    There is a ton of cabinetry in here - I don't feel like you need so many pantries.





    I think the island and sink wall are giving you more storage than you have now, so consider the rest extra.

    As usual, I am open to everyone's thoughts - I learn a lot here even though I have been doing this for a long time.

    I hope this helps in some way!

    Best of luck to you

    labbzzyy thanked Debbi Washburn