thanks for the link, Maddie. David Pogue was in my tennis clinic for several months, some years back. There were only four of us and he always struck me as super intelligent with a disarming manner. He was a combination of Eagle scout and golden retriever, lol.

Mtn, a seaplane, or any tiny plane really, is adventure, not transportation, in my life. When we visited Belize, we rented a driver to take us from the coast to the rainforest where we were staying. Talking to those who had flown in on bitsy floorless "planes" only reinforced that choice, but didn't mean I didn't applaud the folks who did it, lol. Underscores that we're all wired differently when it comes to risk, fear, and our willingness to encounter either.

I don't know if anyone here follows Hank Green but he has a way of breaking down science for the masses, often based on questions his followers send in. This is about the submersible.

I saw the Hank Green thread on Twitter as well.

I'm holding off on any further speculation until we hear from actual experts involved and investigation results, but I do think this is a fairly balanced article from the BBC.

.

BBC: "A Maverick, Rule-Breaking Founder and a Tragic End".

I just can't get past his "innovative" navigational system:

Jojo, the guy on the left:

Jilly , the guy in the video with Stockton Rush is David Pogue. In the video, David basically does exactly that, laughs nervously, and says something along the lines of “oh, come on you’ve got to be kidding me”

Most submersibles use joy stick steering. Not sure why.

the us navy does. Does that impact your judgement?

some aircrafts too.

Yeah, it does actually. Thanks for pointing that out.

“Most submersibles use joy stick steering. Not sure why”

Because it works. 🙂

So the teen’s mom said she was meant to go on the trip but her son asked to go instead he was excited to go contrary to the earlier “reports“ based on some one who was not involved in the family’s life.

Also in regards to karl stanely’s and the industry’s 2018/19 emails addressing concerns to Rush, Stanely when , ”Asked whether he was confident in the submersible's capability to make the journey to the historic shipwreck, Stanley said he believed Rush took steps to correct the problem after the email.

"He never got into the nitty-gritty with me about exactly how many model tests he had done, exactly where they failed. But my impression was that he had done enough diligence that lives were not at risk," Stanley said.” Rush scraped the 2019 launch and tore apart the submersible and rebuilt it after concerns.

This innovation excites me! https://www.businessinsider.com/see-hypersonic-jet-will-fly-new-york-paris-90-minutes-2023-6?amp

I don't know if we will ever know for sure how the 19 year old felt about the trip. If I were the man's mother, I would certainly rather have the public believe that he wanted to go, rather than that he felt pressured into going, that casts her husband and the family dynamics in a bad light. I am not sure she would want this as his legacy whether it's true or it's not true. It's really nobody's business.

I was supposed to fly on the Concorde; was the only way I could make two important business events. Then I got in a bad moped/car accident in Bermuda, and soon after they stopped flying.

I am not interested in physical risk of any kind. I found the "grey" slopes in Vail and they were my fave (turns out they were so slow because they were for cross country, not downhill). I hated diving in the open ocean (it was neat in my pool lol) and am not likely to go again. We once did a go cart racing thing with clients and I was the only one was sort of slowly circling. Downright comical.

I agree it is no one's business, but I totally do not believe the aunt. Highly suspect of a family member who talks to the media in that circumstance, mid-search, especially statements like this:

"I am thinking of Suleman, who is 19, in there, just perhaps gasping for breath ... It's been crippling, to be honest," Azmeh said in a phone interview

Note that NBC news added:

In recent years, Azmeh had fallen out of touch with Shahzada.

..some of her family members, including Shahzada, disapproved of her use of (medical, parentheses mine) cannabis and they started speaking less frequently. She said that she continued to feel close to Suleman, a young man she described as thoroughly good-hearted.

"Feel close" is not "was the unusual choice of confidante for a young man in another country."

It's certainly could be a form of revenge for the sister to either propose or report her nephew's apprehensions about going whether this is true or not: it paints a negative, and really irrefutable at this point, picture of both parents, which will persist as a possibility.

It's popular in modern culture to play out one's private conflicts publicly, either in the media for the famous or rich, or social media, or even on a cell phone on public transportation for those at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. I don't get the attraction.

It’s the demise of shame.

With out ever really being able to know more I like to believe the best case scenario and that this young adult made his choice based on his own curiosity driven desire to explore.

"The Coast Guard has now opened a Marine Board of Investigation -- the highest level of investigation that the Coast Guard conducts -- with the goal of preventing a similar tragedy from occurring again.

"The board will first and primarily work to find the cause of the tragedy," and to recommend civil or criminal charges that may be warranted, officials said Sunday."

Good!

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/coast-guard-to-give-update-on-investigation-into-titan-submersible-implosion/3075717/

Canada opened an investigation days ago but they stressed not necessarily a criminal one at this time. Just like after all auto, boat or plane accidents investigations should be run this is no different.

This is very different. Stockton's own words reveal much about his carelessness. He thumbed his nose at safety standards.

There are no mandatory standards for submersibles. Maybe this should change but until it does it is not illegal to not adhere to them.

What laws do you use to charge him and in what jurisdiction?

Maritime Law covers the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS.) It is a broad umbrella. The boat was Bahamian flagged. It is illegal to offer passenger service outside of being a licensed and insured boat. Criminal charges can be brought. As for civil suits, Mtn. already brought up the salient issue, Are there any assets worth pursuing? Can the corporate veil be pierced?

They are not a vessel( because it could not navigate in open seas) though and precedent has already been established in an oil rig explosion that many maritime laws do not apply to non vessels. Civil is likely criminal will be a challenge even if negligence is determined. Canada is a more likely jurisdiction to pursue charges it seems. And families of those killed might not need monetary recovery so may not pursue suits.

Oil rigs seem different from passenger ferrying boats. Oil rigs do not have passengers. Some oil rigs are structures which stand on the bottom of the ocean. Other oil rigs float. Furthermore, some motorboats which are limited to harbors still require a license if they are carrying passengers. And Titan was operating in the open sea. Since they launched from Canada, I agree, that is a better avenue. I would imagine some people may seek damages as punishment, not for personal gain.

PS Bahamian law mirrors US law on this subject.

Very thorough, and thoroughly damning piece in The New Yorker yesterday.

families of those killed might not need monetary recovery so may not pursue suits.

"Need" is always a funny word when it comes to money, and the extinguishment of earnings from highly successful people is a big number.

One excerpt of note:

“Stockton strategically structured everything to be out of U.S. jurisdiction” for its Titanic pursuits, the former senior OceanGate employee told me. “It was deliberate.” In a legal filing, the company reported that the submersible was “being developed and assembled in Washington, but will be owned by a Bahamian entity, will be registered in the Bahamas and will operate exclusively outside the territorial waters of the United States.” Although it is illegal to transport passengers in an unclassed, experimental submersible, “under U.S. regulations, you can kill crew,” McCallum told me. “You do get in a little bit of trouble, in the eyes of the law. But, if you kill a passenger, you’re in big trouble. And so everyone was classified as a ‘mission specialist.’ There were no passengers—the word ‘passenger’ was never used.” No one bought tickets; they contributed an amount of money set by Rush to one of OceanGate’s entities, to fund their own missions.

“It is truly hard to imagine the discernment it took for Stockton to string together each of the links in the chain,” Patrick noted. “ ‘How do I avoid liability in Washington State? How do I avoid liability with an offshore corporate structure? How do I keep the U.S. Coast Guard from breathing down my neck?’ ”

Apart from the arguably incriminating legal machinations, there is this.

So so damning and something I' d not heard anywhere else, about what Rush did when his experienced pilot quit

Soon afterward, Rush asked OceanGate’s director of finance and administration whether she’d like to take over as chief submersible pilot. “It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting,” she told me. She added that several of the engineers were in their late teens and early twenties, and were at one point being paid fifteen dollars an hour. Without Lochridge around, “I could not work for Stockton,” she said. “I did not trust him.” As soon as she was able to line up a new job, she quit.

and

...it is difficult to know what tests were done, exactly, and how many hulls were made, and by whom, because Rush’s public statements are deeply unreliable. He claimed at various points to have design and testing partnerships with Boeing and nasa, and that at least one iteration of the hull would be built at the Marshall Space Flight Center, in Huntsville, Alabama. But none of those things were true.

roarah, are you still defending him?

I saw that article Mtn, and hoped it would put paid to any lingering notions of Stockton as a brave visionary…..or an honest businessman….or a decent human being.

I am not sure if I had defended him per se, but I did think people were rushing to judgement. People particularly like to judge the rich and powerful.

Well, this article is a terrible shame. I was telling DH last week that I think, especially to business people, the idea of skirting regulations does not scare some people. A lot of business people are anti-regulation. They would have nodded their head knowingly at Rush saying he can't be bothered with (implied stupid) regulators. Like anything, regulations can be excessive, but I have always had respect for the process.

I don't see where Roarah was defending him (or that anyone else was for that matter, but I am not reading back through this thread), but rather urging people to wait till the facts were in before judging. No doubt there will be untruths spread.

The laws of physics and behaviors of materials are not akin to business regulations.

I wasn’t specifically referring to anyone; I have read and heard admiration of the man on several online platforms including this one, and I hope the facts coming to light put paid to anyone’s feeling that his willingness to push boundaries —-read as ”cut corners”— should somehow excuse the fact that he was directly responsible for his own death and that of four others.

The laws of physics and behaviors of materials are not akin to business regulations.

One ignores both at their own risk.

The Titan Submersible Was “an Accident Waiting to Happen”

Interviews and e-mails with expedition leaders and employees reveal how OceanGate ignored desperate warnings from inside and outside the company. “It’s a lemon,” one wrote.

By Ben Taub

July 1, 2023

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen

Wow @Judi that is a powerful read. These quotes were especally interesting.

McCallum, who was leading an expedition in Papua New Guinea at the time, knew the outcome almost instantly. “The report that I got immediately after the event—long before they were overdue—was that the sub was approaching thirty-five hundred metres,” he told me, while the oxygen clock was still ticking. “It dropped weights”—meaning that the team had aborted the dive—“then it lost comms, and lost tracking, and an implosion was heard.”

“You can’t cut corners in the deep,” McCallum had told Rush. “It’s not about being a disruptor. It’s about the laws of physics.”

Unfortunately Rush went down with the ship and doesn't get to be told that he wasn't the smart visionary that he believed he was, he doesn't get to pay for his reckless and dangerous actions or have to face the families of his passengers.

Maybe he'll get to pay the piper on the other side.

I saw David Pogue's follow-up after the tragedy (I had also seen the original story), and I was struck by Rush's cavalier attitude as I rewatched him. It appeared to me that every time the subject of safety or testing was broached, he became defensive and had some excuse. That New Yorker article is also very troubling. It seems that it was just a matter of time until something went terribly wrong. Sadly, five lives were lost when that happened.

So science is real after all.

OceanGate says it is suspending all exploration and business operations.

From an article on why men pay so much to chance death in space and under sea

“…virtually all of these ventures simply amount to a billionaire’s version of the “I Survived Splash Mountain” t-shirt.”

I feel anyone who would do something like this-even in good, regulated conditions-are at their own risk. Anything could happen.

Yes, every activity is at your own risk.

What seems a big risk for some, is an exciting adventure for others.

My DH jumped out of airplanes. No way for me.

I waterskied and snowskied. My mother would never ski in any form.

maddielee, stereotype much? Or is that pure bigotry?

I’ll remove it

Sorry, @Judi I am working on my problem of not trusting shopping center roller coasters, that were assembled quickly. The mention of the need for dental care was over top.

I do trust school carnival roller coasters that are assembled and inspected.

It was a meme. Obiviously tastless. My apologizes.

maddielee, you are good people.