My guess is air pressure in the tank is very low.

Hi Bob, and thank you. I just drained the bladder tank properly, and tested it. The pressure was at 10psi. Seriously way too low. I added air adjusted to 38psi, turned on a faucet upstairs and turned the power back on to the pump. It filled, I had water, but I'm right back to the same problem. I have good water pressure for about a minute or so, and now it slows down and trickles. After about ten seconds the water starts coming back out at good pressure, and then repeats the slow down trickle to nothing. And that just keeps repeating.

I have a CRC control box that controls the well pump. When all of the moisture was in that basement from the flooding, that control box was wet inside. One of the capacitors appeared in really bad shape, my brother tested and replaced that. During that time period I had no water pressure at all, back in January last year. Once the capacitor was replaced, we got water to work.....but the problem of starting/stopping remains. What is going on now is different than the short cycling that happened before where the pump would come on and off every few seconds. I hope this makes sense, I've been dealing with this thing well over a year now and have not had time to take care of it for many reasons. It's time, it's getting worse.

Wow, it always amazes me when a repair person does work like that and doesn't "test drive" it.

The very first thing is to do what you mentioned. Set the pressure of the pre-charge in the tank to the specified level.

If things aren't working right still, I'd go back to basics and not assume that anything is working properly - and therefore has to be tested/proven.

Start with making sure that your pressure gauge is accurate. If it's old, and/or you have to tap on it to get it to respond, then replace it. You can't fix things if you are getting bad info.

If it's not there already, I would then install a draincock (something you can attach a garden hose to) near the pressure switch. The idea is that you can open the valve and test the operation of your pump/pressure switch/tank to be sure things are working as intended before it goes anywhere else. It also allows you to watch the gauge and see at what point the pressure switch is kicking in.

Post a photo of your pressure switch / gauge setup. Usually it's all part of a brass tee that includes a draincock, pressure switch port, gauge port, pressure release valve, and tank connection that looks something like this below.

Thank you Jake. I was pretty peeved at that plumber. After he left, I had no water at all. He had turned a valve off when he started and did not turn it back on before he left. goes to prove he didn't test my water flow at all. Now...having said that.....I hired them to install the new bladder tank. Testing things out would have been a higher charge I'm thinking. LOL One would assume they would do that, but I don't assume anymore. I personally don't believe he had adjusted that tank to the proper psi from the factory set.

I will post pics of the pressure switch and gauge in a bit. The gauge seems to be working correctly, it kicks on at 40psi and kicked off at 60 yesterday, but today it stops at 50psi. The needle bounces around hard when it kicks on and off. It settles to the setting okay after that brief bouncing. Brother says that's just vibration?

Give me a bit to get some photos for you.

If the pump turns on at 40psi then you shouldn’t be getting a trickle out of your faucets.
How many gallons is your new pressure tank?
Once I came across a system where one of the pipes coming out of the pressure tank into the system was galvanized instead of copper and had rusted almost completely shut inside the pipe.
I think the issue could be with the pressure switch and piping. Please post a picture.

Okay, here's the pics. It's a mess down there. that guy didn't even clean up where the old tank had sat. There is a nasty pile of rust etc. scattered there. Wish he had asked me for a broom. I've sent pics of everything you need to see. Pay no attention to the small red bladder tank, and old control box on the wall toward the bottom of pics. That is not in use. I think they had changed the underground sprinkling pump to the house pump some 20 years ago. That was my husband and a plumber, they are both deceased and I can't ask any questions. My tank is 20 gal./80 liter, the same size as the old one. you will see in one pic, toward the top, the CRC control box. I have an electrician coming today after 5 to check that over. That is 220v, and I am not messing with that! Also, the pressure switch and wiring. I have been assured the wiring is placed right. But, again, I am not assuming anything right now. There is a water softener connected to the system as well.

I am a DYI-er, but I have learned my limitations. LOL

Oh, just reread your post. The pipes at the pressure switch and nipple etc. to the bigger pipe are clear and not plugged with anything. The plumber did take those apart for me yesterday and checked them out. I also saw no plug up in those connections. I do get water at good pressure at first, then the pressure drops to nothing (I watched the gauge) and about ten to twenty seconds later it kicks on again. That cycle just keeps repeating. Also, the valve at the bottom of the pipes with the hose is the drain valve for the bladder tank.

I do not have a drain cock at the pressure switch. As you can see, this set up is not like others where the pressure switch is coming right off the bladder tank. I do not know why, may have something to do with them changing the underground sprinkling system on to the house pump. No clue.

One other question. After I've set the bladder tank to 38psi, turned the system back on and everything is running. Do I test the tank again for pressure reading with the tire gauge? If so, what should it be reading?

The instructions for the new bladder tank said a pressure release valve was supposed to be installed, but that was not included with the tank. I do not see a pressure release valve on this anywhere.

It will be at a higher pressure but the pressure will vary depending on how much water is in the tank, so it doesn’t really tell you much.
The pump should kick on the moment the pressure goes below 40. If you watch the gauge go all the way to 0 before the pressure switch turns on then I’d say the switch is the problem.

Bob, it's a brand new pressure switch. Just bought it yesterday, and the one I replaced was only a few months old. The plumber seemed to think it was malfunctioning and suggested just to be sure to buy a new one. It was only 30 dollars, so I went for it. Can you see the wiring on the pressure switch I sent a pic of? Can you tell if the wires are correctly located, red, black, white and grounds? I'm going to test this again in a few minutes. One other thing to note, I can hear something near or at the bottom of the tank when that gauge drops down to zero. Almost like air escaping, but not sure. I'm going to listen for that when I go down there again.

Not sure if this will work or not. Video of the gauge when pump kicks on, then dropping a minute or so later. There is definitely a noise at the bottom of the bladder tank when that gauge needle drops to zero. After about about ten seconds or so, the pumps kicks back on and the process repeats itself.

Pressure Gauge Video

That is the thing I was hoping to stay away from here, that pump. So, if that foot valve is broken or stuck open, can that be fixed by pulling the pump up? What would a well person reasonably charge for something like that?

I have no idea how far down my well pump is, and the people who installed are deceased. Husband took care of all that 26 years ago, and I have no record of anything to go by. I can hear it like it's really not too far down, 25 feet-ish, but that could be fooling my ears being in a pipe and all.

Tina, you have old galvanized pipes, I can see in your pictures. It could be that your pipes are getting really clogged up. If you have ever taken one apart and looked inside, sometimes, the hole is only a pin hole. Those should probably be all changed, before too long. I also see rust on a few of them, so there could be a leakage too. It could be that the tank isnt holding pressure, because of air leakage.

when I am not running any water, the gauge stays at 50 and the tank pressure is at 50. Yesterday I was able to get that gauge to go up to 60psi. I have only adjusted the pressure in the tank per the instructions since then. I just don't get the all over the place readings. Even if I purchase a new gauge, it's not going to stop that pressure going down to zero etc. when I run water. I'm so lost on this. Thanks to everyone helping diagnose this.

From my experience, a lot of plumbers are not highly trained in well systems. I have had much better results using a well pump company to diagnose well related problems. I am inclined to agree that there may be a check valve problem in the well, and/or a leak in the pipe from the well pump to the surface.

I believe the foot valve is the culprit. That would explain where the water is going and causing the pressure to totally drop out.
If you want a reliable system I would also replace all of the galvanized piping with pvc or copper.

Thank you everyone. I had an electrician out last night to look at the CRC control box for the pump. There was corrosion going on inside again, we had replaced a capacitor in that last year. It looks pretty bad, he is looking into a new one today. He did not charge me for last nights' visit. YEY. My brother held the pipe that goes to the well pump during the cycle (it's a hose, connected to the galvanized pipe) and he could not feel any water rushing back out to pump when that gauge drops to zero and no water is flowing. I'm certainly not ruling out the foot valve, but I need to get that control box replaced or it's going to give me problems very soon. If that does not solve the issue, I turn to a well company. I already have a company I will call. Also, there is a water softener connected to the system. Is there any chance that could be causing some kind of problem? It was replaced two years ago because the mother board on the original went bad from the humidity problem down there along with everything else. The plumber said something about "Is it the RIGHT water softener". I can bypass that and test things out, will probably do that this morning. Process of elimination. I'm also going to look into the cost of replacing all of the galvanized pipes down there, that's going to be costly I'm sure. UGH

Thank you for the photos, and particularly the video. That was very helpful.

With no faucets on, does the pressure maintain, or does it drop?

If the check valve at the bottom of the well was bad, the pump would shut off, and then fairly quickly the pressure would drop (as if a faucet were open) and the pump would go on at ~40 psi and off around 60. It would continue to cycle like that constantly - even if all the faucets were off.

There is something not right about the pressure switch / pump response.

What I see happening, is for some reason the pump doesn't come on - and then the tank runs out of draw-down capacity and pressure drops to zero. At some delayed point, the pump comes on.

You can hear a pressure switch open and close. When the pressure dips below 40, I do not think I hear the switch close. (I've listened to the video on max volume several times)

Do you hear the switch close around 40? (you can also leave the cover off and watch the contacts)

Right now, do not worry about the softener or the galvanized pipes. The pump needs to come on at ~40 and go off at ~60. That's the issue on the table.

Thank you Jake. I already tested out bypassing the water softener this morning, and that was not the problem. I will check the pressure switch tomorrow for what you mentioned, and will get another video close to it so it can be seen and heard. This is a new pressure switch, and the one that was there already was fairly new. Only a few months old.

I spoke with a well contractor today and the thought was maybe the point on the pump is clogged up. So many things to consider, but I want to stay away from that pump if I can.

I will post back here what I see and hear tomorrow, with a video as well.

Great, thanks.

If you can answer the two questions in bold tomorrow, that would be very helpful.

Jake, the first question in bold on the water pressure. It maintains pressure at about 42 psi when no faucets or water is running. I will get a video this afternoon, I'm dealing with a ton of crap this morning. The new control box is out for delivery today.

In response to your comment about the pump cycling on and off: When water is running, it will run for a minute or so then the gauge drops down to zero. It takes about ten seconds for the pump to kick back on and bring the pressure back up, then the same thing happens repeatedly. The pump takes a bit before kicking back on when that gauge drops to zero. Not immediate at all.

Here are 3 videos with sound. The last one shows the pressure holding at around 40psi when the water was turned off. The pump will kick on a couple times and sometimes it will settle at 50psi for a while when the water is off. The new control box came today and I'm waiting on electrician to give a time he can install. I went down there just now and the pressure is holding around 52psi. Seriously scratching my head raw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKjcrM4a4RI

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sRHqLaY8lxY

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2A5y8YJOZTU

@Tina All the videos are marked Private and I can't view them.

Shoot, I'll get on that right now!

https://youtube.com/shorts/2A5y8YJOZTU?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/sRHqLaY8lxY?feature=share

https://youtu.be/VKjcrM4a4RI

Let me know if you can view them now. I'm very new to youtube uploading, I made them public now.

I seem to have air in my lines now. The faucets are doing some spitting. This started when the new bladder tank was installed. Could this be causing any issues with the pressure switch? I'm going to clear those out tomorrow by turning off main water valve, opening all water faucets, then turning on the water valve and let it run for 15 minutes. Would this be correct?

@Tina

Ok, I'm able to view them. They are very helpful.

Here's the thing: Video 1 - you are showing the contacts - they remain closed the entire time. The pump is going off and on - but it's not because of the pressure switch.

There is an issue with the pump and/or the control box.

Here's a working theory: The pump is shutting off due to a thermal or overcurrent situation. It cools back down, and automatically resets, and the pump goes on again.

If I were working on this, one of the things that I would do is measure the current draw with a meter on the pump while it's running to see if it's within specifications. I would do this on both legs in the event that one has a high resistance path to ground (so not a dead short, but enough of an overcurrent to trigger the control panel to shut it off).

I would also try to determine the age of the pump. Many times there will be a date on the control box or a serial # that can be decoded for the date on the control box. Overcurrent + a twenty year old pump = replace the pump.

I would use my electrical meter to determine where it's being shut off. In other words, if there's still power from the control panel to the pump, but the pump is off, the pump is shutting down on a thermal overload and you have a defective pump. If the control panel is shutting it down, why? Is it overcurrent protection? If so, it's likely a defective pump. If the control panel is shutting down and there's no over current situation measured with an ammeter, it's the control panel.

A separate issue - this is not causing your problem - is that I would have 1" pipe all the way to the pressure tank and not reduce it. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like you have 1" black poly pipe from the well (normal) that gets reduced down to 1/2" pipe by the time it gets connected to the tank. Again, I might be seeing that wrong. It's tough to judge pipe size from a photo but it looks like you have two reducing bushings - so 1" - 3/4" and then 3/4 - 1/2" The pump comes on and tries to move a lot of water (into the pressure tank) and it's being restricted by the pipe size. Again... this isn't the source of your problem, but is not a good setup.

@Jake The Wonderdog

Thank you, I will discuss all of this with the electrician. Please tell me all of what you mentioned to test can be done without pulling up the pump from the ground?

I am remembering back to last year when the problem started with my water pressure, got up one day to none at all. I was working full time, and my father was critically ill requiring all of my free time at the hospital. A relative looked into things and the breaker for the pump kept tripping off. It was a 15amp single pole breaker, and somewhere it was decided that there was supposed to be a 20amp double pole breaker there for that pump. I'm thinking he read that on the controller box. So he changed out the breaker and it stopped tripping off when the pump kicked on. Now I'm wondering......is that an issue....? I'll have the electrician look at that.

Now, the reason I am so resistant on going to the pump. My husband, who is now deceased, put in the first well and did everything proper with permits and all. At some point a few years later he had another well drilled, I do not know why. The original well is not in use. I'm thinking he did not pull a permit for that second well because no records are found on it.

I have been in contact with the county health dept. trying to find a well log for the second well and have had zero luck. I tried the freedom of information act site and could not find any thing there. Tried the township, nothing. There is nothing whatsoever here to tell me how deep that is, what kind of pump, whether the point is steel or plastic, or anything about it. I'm between a rock and a hard place on this. If it turns out to be the pump and it has to be pulled up, I don't think a licensed well company can do it without any information about it. This is just such a mess.

Any suggestions there?

@Tina

Yes, it should be a 20 amp circuit, not 15.

You can measure the current without pulling the pump.

You can determine if the control panel is shutting off the pump without pulling the pump.

If the current draw is excessive, you have a defective pump (or a wire shorting to the casing) but either way you have to pull the pump.

If the control panel is not shutting off the pump - in other words, the pump isn't running but there's still voltage from the control panel - you have to pull the pump.

If the pressure switch is closed, but there's no voltage from the control panel, determine why the control panel is shutting it off.

Regarding potentially unpermitted well... do not raise the issue with anyone.

They may figure it out, or not, but even if they figure it out they may look the other way.

Just FYI - for your electrician:

This is a table of what the motor should draw, in amps.

A typical pump is from 1/3 - 1 hp. You will need to know what you have. I assume it's on the control panel.

So, for example, if you have a 1/2 hp pump, it should draw 4.9 amps.

If you are getting readings significantly above these - after initial startup -you have an issue.

@Jake The Wonderdog

You are just a wealth of information! Thank you! I'll print that out this morning, and look at the existing control panel to see if somebody did something right back then and circled the size of the pump. Based on the multiple circuit breaker panels in the house and outside of the house, I'm thinking no. Very little was labeled on the boxes as to what breaker went to what. I'm labeling as I go. LOL

The electrician will be here after 5 today. I also noticed those contacts were not opening or closing, but I knew nothing about those other than how to change one out. I'm learning. ;-)

There is usually a label on the control panel that includes model/serial number and electrical info.

If you see that label, take a photo and post it. It may be (probably is) inside the control panel.

I want to qualify something I said earlier: The pump should be on a 20 amp circuit. That is a 20 amp circuit breaker AND 12 gauge wire. You said that someone had installed a 15 amp breaker and that had been replaced with a 20 amp. That's fine as long as the wire is 12 gauge and not 14 gauge. Your electrician can confirm.

@Jake The Wonderdog

Thank you, I wrote that down for the electrician.

Here's another twist, just what we need.

I remembered something I found in the garage a couple years ago in a drawer. An old franklin electric control box that said "bad capacitor" on it. I did not throw it out. I found it this morning and am posting a pic of that one with the label inside, it appears to be a 1999 manufacture date if I'm reading that label right. The questions are, there are differences in amps etc. on the old box. It would have to have been for the pump, there is nothing else here that would use that box.

I've attached the old box pics, and the replacement box I received yesterday model based on the box in use currently that we feel is corroded and bad.

Your thoughts? I cannot thank you enough for helping me get this resolved.

Here is the replacement box that is exact to the one currently in use:

My husband was one that regularly cut corners to things so as not to put money out, I loved him dearly, but documentation and keeping records was not something he did. I'm assuming the old box in the pics is the one put in when the second well was installed, that box went bad, and was replaced with the two capacitor style box. Assuming.....

I throw nothing away. I have records and receipts here back to 1988, I am going through everything from 1997 forward to see if there is any kind of receipt for a pump, piping, and checks paid to someone to put that well in.

@Tina

That is a 1 HP pump. It is 23-24 years old. The thermal protection is built into the pump motor, not the control panel. The motor, when it's running, should pull 8 - 8.2 amps.

The difference in amps between the two isn't significant.

It's a 3 wire system, so when you check for both volts and amps, you will be checking the Black and Yellow wires. It's possible that there is an issue with either the relay in this box or the run capacitor. Since you have the replacement and it's a fast change out - you will know pretty quickly.

Let me know what amp readings you get.

Now here's the part you don't want to hear:

You might get lucky and it's the control panel, but I think the pump has reached the end of its useful life. It's 24 years old and it seems to be shutting down on a thermal overload.

You will confirm once you have replaced the control panel to rule that out and also with some amp measurements. I think you are going to find a current draw of something more than ~8.2 amps when its running.

@Jake The Wonderdog

Oh, I have been mentally prepared for it to be the pump. ;-)

The relay in the existing box is fairly corroded on the contacts/connector and looks bad on the housing of it.

My mind is eased on the amps difference now, thanks for that. I'll let you know what readings we get, probably won't post to you until tomorrow morning. My fingers are crossed....but not glued. LOL

@Jake The Wonderdog

Okay so here's what happened. The electrician tested the wires with the old control box in. The pump was drawing 37-38 amps! My heart fell. As we were discussing pulling up well pumps, because we were sure the pump was bad, I told him to install the new control box anyway. As soon as it was hooked up, we turned on the system. Pump kicked on at 40psi and got to 60psi and kicked off. We waited and it did the same a couple more times. He tested the wires again and the pump is now drawing 8.1 amps. Pressure seemed to be holding fine.

I am going to test out my underground sprinkling tomorrow morning and see if it continues working.

I ran the kitchen faucet for a bit, and then left for about a half hour. I went down and looked at the gauge and it was at about 45psi. I will know tomorrow if this holds. I do believe that relay in the old box was bad.

I'll report back, but I am encouraged. :)

Note: I did confirm the breaker wire to be 12 not 14 gauge.

That's great! I'm very glad for you. I would say if the pump is going at 8.1 amps and working properly, you're in good shape.

I got up in the wee hours of the morning and decided one way to test this is to run a load of laundry. Before yesterday I couldn't fill up the washing machine without the water stopping for a while and then starting again. This time the water flow did not stop at all, even through the rinse cycle. It was normal. Another thing I noticed is that my lights don't flicker when that pumps kicks on anymore. YEY

Thank you all, especially Jake. I could not have gotten through this confusion without you. I know that I have to be prepared for that old pump to just give out at some point, but maybe I have some time now to get a plan together in case it does.

If it can do laundry early in the morning, it's doing better than I am.

I'm very happy you could fix it without pulling it. You learned way more about pumps than you wanted to know. The videos of what was going on really helped us understand the issue.

The pump is nearing the end of its expected lifespan. It could go for another 5-10 years - but I wouldn't count on that. I would start setting some money aside.