. .

Carpet comes off the bolt in certain widths, let's say 12' or 13' wide. Do any of the rooms have a seam?

All the rooms are larger than 12 '.  The master is 18'±.  I really thought it was standard that the pattern would be layed in the same direction from the point of entry like a wood floor. But this is my first experience with a patterned carpet.  I sure appreciate the perspectives.

Jan Moyer: I actually avoided the big box store and went with a local, reputable dealer.  The carpet was more expensive than big box but it seemed an excellent product and I wanted the quality install/service.  Hopefully they will make this right.

I get the color difference but a pattern has direction and that pattern direction should present the same from each point of entry. You would not lay a wood floor parallel to the threshold in one room and perpendicular in another would you?  I like w2w in the bedrooms. Soft and quiet.  We don't wear outside shoes in our home so our previous carpet lasted 25 years.

@JAN MOYER: Not every venue for every product on earth, is a pro, or even employs a "pro". To have that expectation is absurd." Seriously? If someone who lays carpet for a carpet store can't be considered a 'pro' then what is? If people buy carpet from a carpet store (and even from a big box) OF COURSE the expectation is that it will be laid correctly. Nothing absurd about that. What's absurd is expecting people who might buy carpet once or twice in their lives to have to know all the ins and outs of carpet laying.

Actually under most circumstances, real wood flooring is laid all going the same direction in the entire house. Sometimes it will be parallel to the threshold and other times perpendicular.  

I don't know the details of carpeting but I do know it is common to turn carpets in closets and secondary spaces to save material.

@Marie Rodriguez - You are not wrong, but the carpet company is going to fight you on it. They don't want to replace the carpet once installed. I hate the fact that so many people expect quality work when they hire a professional to do the work and are then told "you should have . . ." The whole reason you hired a professional company to do the work is because they should know how to do their job and not make a mess of things. They should have thought about the fact that the orientation was different in the rooms and if they had some reason for wanting to lay it to different directions they should have consulted with you first. No excuse for sloppy, lazy work.

Maybe since they were working up close to the pattern, and not standing back looking after it was laid taut and flat, they didn’t realize there was a certain direction to the pattern and if no one pointed that out, it was put in with thought about seam placement and not pattern direction. But I’ll add, the comments are funny because they always say the pro should know everything, until it’s done and there is an issue and then they should have consulted the homeowner on every single decision made.

Wall to wall carpeting comes off the bolt at 12' or 13'. You're very lucky if one measurement in the room is 12 or 13 feet. Rug goes down, no seam, and very little waste. Pattern shows as it should.

I'm guessing that the 12 or 13' foot wall in the last room, (if there are no seams in there) was not the wall you see from the hall. I'm going to give the installer a break here. Possibly he started on the shorter wall in order to save you money and not have a seam. That doesn't relieve him of making that decision without talking to you first. The install was not correct for a rug with a pattern. You have the right to be upset.

"Wall to wall carpeting comes off the bolt at 12' or 13'. You're very lucky if one measurement in the room is 12 or 13 feet. Rug goes down, no seam, and very little waste. Pattern shows as it should."

_____________________________

It comes off the bolt at 12'6", 15 feet, and at 16 feet width as well.....depending your selection.

A 12 foot wide room needs 12'6 or 13 foot goods to be done with no seam. A 13 foot wide room would need 15" goods in your example.

A rug direction is pre determined at the point of measure, and yards ordered are as well. So too are seams planned at measure.

So....you're wrong on many counts. It takes due diligence from the buyer AND the seller.

https://www.builddirect.com/learning-center/flooring/measure-your-room-carpeting/

@ AiFL - the comments are funny because they always say the pro should know everything, until it’s done and there is an issue and then they should have consulted the homeowner on every single decision made.

By definition the Pro should be an expert in their field, so yes, I am paying a premium to have an expert install my carpet, paint my wall, do plumbing or electrical work. . . I expect that they know how to do their job.

This does not mean that they are free to do whatever they want and make decisions for their customer.

My auto mechanic inspects my car annually. He performs the inspection and then calls me. He reviews his findings and discusses our options.

My doctor doesn't just send his nurse in to give me a shot. He discusses treatment plans and options.

The chef at the local steak house doesn't decide how my meat should be cooked, they have a server who provides a list of options (a menu) and asks me for my specifications (Which main course, what sides and how I want my steak cooked.

My hair dresser doesn't just cut my hair anyway she wants, she listens to what I want, explains that I have baby fine hair and that the cut I am asking for may not look like picture I am showing her and makes recommendations based on her expertise.

Why shouldn't I expect a consultative approach from the professionals that work on my home as I expect from my auto mechanic, hair dresser and physician?

I have my hair trimmed every month. I have my car serviced a few times a year. But floor replacement? Once every ten years, maybe. That's the difference. You don't know what you don't know about laying carpet. That's why we hire pros to prevent the kind of mistake that was made here.

“Not every venue for every product on earth, is a pro, or even employs a "pro". To have that expectation is absurd.”

Everyone who accepts money to do a job is a pro. That is the literal definition of pro: someone who is in the profession of…

The word ”pro” isn’t synonymous with craftsman or artist.

By accepting money to perform a service you hold yourself out to competent at that service and guarantee the job will be done to an acceptable standard. While it is fair to note that we don’t have enough information about this particular issue to decide if it meets that standard, we do know that the pro, rather than the customer, is responsible for knowing and achieving that standard.

Thank you for being the voice of reason, Bry.911. The customer blaming is too common in these threads.

Nobody is "blaming" the op. Everyone is blaming the installer - with no full information, other than "wrong direction, appears a different rug. "

It's a bloody miracle today to find knowledgeable , experienced help in any field.. So get off the high horse of he "should have explained, should have done whatever!". You are in a new world, not nearly as YOU oriented as the one you had, knew ten years ago, or five years ago. ......or are hoping for.

It is not coming back. Do as much homework as you can suffer...for anything.

There is plenty of blaming the customer for not knowing to TELL the installer she expected the pattern to run the same way in each room. She is unhappy with the install and simply wants to know if they all should match since they all open to the same hallway. Most of us are saying we would expect that. If seams were an issue, he should have discussed with customer about options and cost.

I’d be curious why it was laid that way and would ask for an explanation. May have meant a seam issue, or not having enough, but I’d also ask why the installer did not at least give you a heads up so you could have made your own decision. At least you’ll have some rationale and hopefully only you will notice the direction is off.

I still think without pics we can only guess'

Why can’t you take her word that they are different and she’s unhappy?

Tell me Jan, just how many customers know about the "seam?" We leave the room, get out of their way, and expect the professional job we paid $$$$ for. Please stop blaming the innocent.

“It's a bloody miracle today to find knowledgeable , experienced help in any field.. So get off the high horse of he "should have explained, should have done whatever!". You are in a new world, not nearly as YOU oriented as the one you had, knew ten years ago, or five years ago. ......or are hoping for.”

It is the same world it was five, ten, and even twenty years ago. We have the same standard for work today that we did then, you might argue that customer expectations are lower, but I will counter that pros have just learned there is little penalty for taking advantage of customers.

There we have the crux of the problem with gardenweb and the entire home improvement and construction market. Pro’s who should be calling out other pros for their bad work rarely do. I suspect that is because they see some personal advantage to not criticizing the work of others. However, this a great game theory problem, because in response to never calling out bad work I am much less likely to pay a premium for work now because it has been generally devalued.

When your response to bad work is that the customer should know more, the customer response is to pay less… always.

I took her absolutely at her word. I gave her ten reasons why in possibles, she may be unhappy. For all we know? This wasn't the best option in a carpet for the situation. We don't know, I don't know and you don't. Carpet has at LEAST as many variables as a kitchen counter top. Believe it. How many Houzz threads on that topic? Endlesssssssssss. Some are op error, some are fabricator, some are poor choice of material.and on it goes.

Did the carpet sales man come to the site

Who did the measure? Salesman or other?

Is it a new build a remodel, what? A freshen?

What were the actual goods?

What is the fiber?

Where are the windows in each room?

The rooms are all off a tiled hall? Same side, one is end of hall, across the hall?

Etc.

Just to be fair… there is a reason to change direction of carpet in different rooms. If the pattern has a direction (e.g. stripes) then that pattern should run lengthwise in a room, unless that room is connected to other rooms by the same carpet. The OP noted that the rooms are separated by a tile hallway so we need to see the carpet to know more.

So to the OP’s original question. If the repeat distance is different on the carpet ends than it is on the sides, then disconnected carpet should be oriented differently if the rooms are oriented differently.

Every measure generates a measured drawing, showing seams, and directionality of the nap, or pattern, if there is one. That is viewable after the yardage for that layout is calculated, and before payment, just like it is with a countertop. When you go into pay, that document should be shown and discussed. People usually want to know why they are paying for an extra 20 yards of material, above "the plain math" yardage, just to get the pattern to all run the same way though. And people can get ornery when they cannot do math and visualize. Some customers want the lowest amount of material purchased, no matter wat the pattern is, until it is installed looking every which way. Then they object. So some companies rush customers through that with a perfunctory sign off.

And no, all material in separate rooms is not ever all aligned "the same" way as a standard. The standard is to give the best end results for the amount of seams needed vs the carpet width. It is a bit like dressmaking. Some prefer the pattern to run one way, and some another. It should all run the same way on the same dress, but another dress may run the other direction if it increases the yield for the fabric to do so. Obviously if there is a request for the pattern to run the same way for everything, that request should be honored, and the extra material ordered, and the extra labor factored into the total job.

At what point was the amount of yardage and the layout discussed and signed off on?

“So to the OP’s original question. If the repeat distance is different on the carpet ends than it is on the sides, then disconnected carpet should be oriented differently if the rooms are oriented differently.“

I hope the OP hasn’t left her thread and will see your helpful answer. It will give her some knowledge with which to discuss the issue with the carpet company.

As with all things, this is a failure on both sides to communicate. Therefore one side isn’t solely responsible for fixing it. Ignorance of the law doesn’t make you exempt from following the law, just like not knowing what questions to ask doesn’t put the onus of answering unasked questions on the installer.

DeWayne, besides the fact that more carpet is required to match a pattern, no design and layout was ever presented.  We had our built 25 yrs ago and contractor oversaw installation so we did not have previous experience. Your response was very interesting, thank you.

AiFL: Really? Should I instruct BIG O to match the tread on all four tires?

@AiFL said, "Ignorance of the law doesn’t make you exempt from following the law, just like not knowing what questions to ask doesn’t put the onus of answering unasked questions on the installer."

This is simply an incorrect interpretation and is actually backwards. You, as a member of society, have a duty to reasonably ascertain the legality of your actions. Likewise, a carpet installer has a duty to reasonably ascertain the desires of the customer. There is no requirement that government educate you on the legality of your actions and there is no duty for the customer to educate the installer on the appropriateness of their installation.

The key to understanding the above is duty. Someone who is in the profession of selling and installing carpet has a duty to ask the customer any relevant questions. The customer has a duty to pay for the installation. The customer has no duty to investigate and understand relevant questions for the installer.

Bry911 well said, you proved my point. The OP had a duty to communicate to the installer how the carpet should look when installed. Not how to install it, that’s the duty of the installer. And the carpet company had a duty to correctly install the carpet that was ordered in the agreed upon timeframe and price (tight, flat, secured, good seams, etc). The carpet not looking like what was expected but never verbalized is a breakdown in communication between both parties and as such both parties bear responsibility.

'

From Bry

"Someone who is in the profession of selling and installing carpet has a duty to ask the customer any relevant questions."

Fact you will not like: It is more than likely, that the human SELLING the carpet in any middle America emporium dedicated to flooring and broadloom, is completely clueless as to how carpet is measured, how carpet is installed. Cares not where you are using it, or how, or whether it suits your intended purpose. He/she may or may not be the measuring hire, nor is he the installer of said goods. For the broadloom emporium? His "duty" is to show up, and sell carpet. For this, (on a national average) he makes 42,200.00 pre taxes, annually. Assuming a 35 hour week and a week off per year, no health care? He grosses 23.64 per hour, and may be feeding three kids. He is not wringing a hand over you or your carpet.

The mean salary for the installer is virtually identical.

The in home measure:

Usually NOT the person who may have loaned you the sample to take home and usually NOT the "Joe" that comes to the house to measure. In a fine shop, this could be the installer, or it could be someone else.

Fact per Dwayne, and me:

Every measure generates a measured drawing, showing seams, and directionality of the nap, or pattern, if there is one. That is viewable after the yardage for that layout is calculated, and before payment, just like it is with a countertop. When you go into pay, that document should be shown and discussed. People usually want to know why they are paying for an extra 20 yards of material, above "the plain math" yardage, just to get the pattern to all run the same way though.

Did the op see this drawing? Was the op home for the measure? Who did the measure, and was it the eventual installer or some Joe with a pencil and paper on a clipboard?

To talk about duty is the same as discussing what may constitute the perfect purchasing experience with quite literally.....anything. To find a human being passionate about any endeavor, CARING enough @ 23 bucks an hour to ensure that you will be a happy camper, especially in this particular category of goods, in this time, in this economy, in this USA?

Let's call it rare, and very rare, and as "unfair" as you may deem.

Also a large part of the reason my own local source, sought after by designers as far flung as Florida for creating specialty custom rugs, producing perfect results with the finest goods in patterns and incredibly complicated installations, has EATEN a ton of carpet mistakes of late. They've been at the endeavor for fifty years. ......considering a great result their absolute duty.

WOW!!!

We purchased wall-to-wall carpet from a local family owned business for our bedroom level. The hallway carpet was obviously installed in t opposite diredpction. Turns out that the salesman who measured did this more than once and was let go. Ours was replaced after a doorway seam opened while vacuuming.

I am helping my brother and sister in law find a nursing home for my SIL's mother. The average nurses aide earns $34,894 per year. I hope that they take more care in their work than you think we should expect from the average sales person earning $42,200..

Using your logic every elderly patient in a nursing home should expect to lay in their own filth.

Thankfully, the majority of nurses aides are compassionate and kind human beings who do their jobs with great care despite the low salary.

People DO in fact choose employment in a field KNOWING the pay scale and the hurdles within it. Health and elderly care certainly is one. My bet is there is much compassion in the health field at even lesser wages. There is cleaning help in homes that go far above "duty"!

We were talking about product. Not the care of a human being nor at any life stage

I still think if you want help here we need all the info and you start with pics showing exactly what the issue is not just a staement saying I'm not happy . The op has flatly refused to post any pics to show what is going on.Just because something doesn't look like you wanted does not mean it is wrong. BTW i do not care how much someone earns a proper job well done is the only thing I care about in all things.

@JAN MOYER I always find it is always easy to prevail in any discussion when you make-up the meaning of words.

Duty is a legal responsibility. It isn’t the same thing as their “job.” Their job might be to show up, but their duty is established by the uniform commercial code and the common law of contracts. I don’t care how little their sketchy bosses are paying them to show up to work. When those bosses start paying for their incompetence, you can bet their “job” will change right quick like.

It is pathetic that pros make statements like the ones you are. I don’t believe the OP or anyone else in a similar situation cares about your thoughts on the state of the labor market… they are attempting to resolve conflict and you are just blaming the victim. You are just saying that the OP deserved what they got.

There is an important distinction that you really should attempt to learn… It is the difference between avoiding bad things and deserving bad things. A young lady may decide it is best not to walk home alone, however, were she forced to walk home alone she still deserves to get home safe.

Likewise, it might be best for customers to do extra research before buying carpet to inform themselves. However, if the customer fails to do enough research that doesn’t mean they deserve a bad result. The customer is not at fault for the bad job a contractor does, just because a more informed customer would have avoided that. Every time there is a post like this one you and some others rush in to blame the victim for allowing themselves to be a victim and it is a slap in the face. You absolutely could offer tips on resolution instead, but too many people here are too busy advocating for anyone but the OP.

Good luck to you.

—

Show me the "legal" and enforceable document, in this USA that would describe the same responsibility of some guy measuring, installing a broadloom carpet. Beyond saying that he can not steal from the homeowner, or set that home afire, or run off with the children or their mother. . For the love of god.

Really, it is a carpet, it is a first world problem as well.

The REAL answer is be home, for this stuff. Don't pay until you are satisfied in that moment, If a new build ? Sorry, same thing. Get on the phone,......"I have problem........." No matter the issue, we are not the go between for any OP and her source of trouble for which she wants.......resolution. Re do, explanation, etc., We STILL have no pictures.

Jan Moyer- ‘suck it up‘ in the health care field and do a professional job? However, don’t expect that in any other profession? I can’t even??? I’ve been in the medical field my whole life, for lesser and greater salaries. Never did my care depend on salary. And, you know, I expect NOTHING less from anyone else in any job at all.

Get out your checkbook. From some of the ’pros’ here, the rest of us now must hire pros to monitor pros -lol lol. No one knows what anyone is doing, and everyone else is just at their good judgment/mercy.

@Marie Rodriguez, I hope you're able to work with the company you purchased the carpet from, to understand why the carpet transition is different in the master bedroom. Perhaps it was laid according to the nap and carpet roll size. At the end of the day you may need to pay for the outcome you want. You don't mention what carpet you purchased, but link below I found interesting on considering the nap for traffic and appearance. Good luck!

https://www.hopkinscarpetone.com/understanding-carpet-nap-how-it-plays-into-your-new-flooring/

@maddie260 - If only that worked. When you have the architect, builder, interior designer, project manager and cabinet maker it just becomes a war over who was responsible and they all have an excuse and it still seems to fall on the homeowner to validate that all of the people involved do their job correctly.

@User said, ”Start with the fact that there is no industry standard that says that completely separate rooms, with fully closable doors, need to have the flooring run the same way.”

However, the industry standard does say, “Planning, layout, execution of work, especially seam placement decisions, must reflect the desire of the consumer, be consistent with the industry standards, and should include input from the carpet dealer and installer.”

So, again, while we don’t know if the OP approved the installation and just didn’t understand the implication of that approval on the pattern, we do know that the business is REQUIRED to consult the consumer about layout.

People here pretend that filing a suit is so burdensome that everyone should just lay down and be walked on… like carpet. In reality, half a day getting a statement from a couple of dealers noting they always get customer approval on pattern layout (which most do) plus half a day to appear in small claims court with the above standard has probably a 90% chance of getting the OP significant recompense. The win rate against contractors in small claims court is truly spectacular (largely for reasons like the pros in this thread are demonstrating).

Moreover, you are doing them a service. It is unlikely that the OP is the first customer who disliked the installer’s decision and once the dealer corrects that problem they are likely to have more satisfied customers.

No, that does not violate any industry standard. http://cri105.info/

“Keep seams to a minimum. When possible, position seams so that:

•Seams should run the length of the area.

•Main traffic should run parallel to, rather than across, the seam.

•Natural light does not strike across the seam.

•Seams are away from areas subjected to pivoting traffic.

•Seams are not perpendicular to doorway openings.

Where two or more pieces of the same broadloom carpet are adjacent, the pile direction is required to be the same unless otherwise specified. Uniform pile direction is not required with dissimilar carpet.

NOTE: Ideally, install carpet with the pile lay toward the entrance; but other factors, such as pattern, aesthetics and economic use of material may be considered.

Carpet shall be cut in accordance with the seaming diagram, allowing at least 3 inches along each wall for trimming and sufficient material to match patterns when applicable.

If the larger room is installed correctly because of seaming, why couldn't the smaller rooms have been made to match that? Fewer seams, I would presume.

The photo on the right is the master bedroom.  The hallway (18') leads straight into the master. Upon approach the pattern is clearly linear going into the room.  The seam is parallel to the threshold, running through the middle of the room, is clearly visible as you approach the room, and is perpindicular to the traffic.  The previous carpet seam was not visible upon approach, it ran the opposite way and bisected the room in a hard to see area.  We did not tell the installer where to place the seam but told him that the previous carpet (that he removed) was well done.  The photo on the left is a guestroom it is accessed off the hallway, not adjacent or adjoining, but both are visible from the hallway. The pattern is 90 degrees different as it presents from the threshold. In my opinion as all these rooms have separate thresholds from the tile, the pattern should present the same from each threshold as opposed to running in the same cardinal direction.

I carefully read the preinstallment instructions which emphasized the "professionals" who would determine the best location for the seams, napping etc, noting that no seam is completely invisible.  I actually think the installer simply made a mistake as he skidaddled rather than letting us know he was done and walking us through the installment as we expected. I am hopeful they will work with us and genuinely appreciate your time to comment.

Company will reinstall master!! Whoo hoo!

Great news for you!