What medium did you plant it in and how often are you watering it?

I agree with stress being an issue but depending on the medium II may not want to leave it alone. If it's in a typical miracle grow type mix I would switch it to a much better draining mix before leaving alone. It looks like mulch on top which would also retain a lot of moisture.

you need to remove the pan under the pot. If you suspect soil is too wet

you can remove the water with a vacuum.

Yes, I did not notice the saucer underneath, that definitely needs to go. What part of the world is this tree in? Very helpful to know.

Hi Everyone

Thank you for the suggestions so far.

I was suspicious the saucer was holding water and have been monitoring any excess water there, otherwise I will drain it out.

As far as repotting, I suspected there was not enough acidic soil and amended with sphagnum peat and probably disturbed the roots again. This is in addition to the first repot from the nursery. So it was actually potted twice.

I live in zone 9B California central valley, so it's pretty dry and Sun can be strong in the afternoon.

What I am hearing is, the plant is stressed and leave it alone, give it enough water but not too much and move it to a more shaded area.

If you go to a doctor and the doctor says you're sick, he's not telling you anything you didn't know - same with someone telling you the plant is stressed. "Stress" occurs whenever the plant is forced to deal with a cultural condition at or beyond the limits Mother Nature programed it to cope with, and it is the nature of the universe that order descends into disorder, so the cure for stress requires a proactive approach, not leaving the plant to its own devices, which favors even more disorder.

It could be argued that a growers only job is to figure out what is keeping the plant from realizing its full genetic potential, and fixing it. That thought can be applied to every influence that has an impact on its level of vitality, which means it has the potential to be a stressor. Potential sources of stress - moisture levels, water quality, light intensity and duration, all nutrients, the concentration of nutrients in the soil solution, temperature, humidity, the ratio of water to air in the grow medium, insect herbivory, disease pathogens, abiotic pathogens, and more..... .

The saucer doesn't necessarily have to go if it is protecting the surface below, but the water in the saucer should not have a pathway by which it can make its way back into the pot. Lifting the pot above the water below, so the pot never contacts the water, is a valid way of dealing with the excess water. Something similar to this:

If you'd be willing to share more info, we might come up with something like an 'aha!' moment, or there just might be enough pieces to solve an as yet unsolved puzzle. Is what we see in the image you provided the actual grow medium/soil, or a mulch you put on top of the soil? What is it? Please describe what's in the grow medium and include any brand and any contents noted on the package.

Have you fertilized the plant? If yes, with what product, how much was used, what are the NPK %s?

How large is the pot the plant is in, and what size was the pot it came in?

Does your home have an ionic exchange water softener (uses salt).

Do you have a lot of plants and are they doing well - you're happy with growth and appearance?

Al

The soil is a mixture of Kellog organic veg soil which is what you see at top, alot of bark in the medium. I also have miracle gro potting soil, compost, spagnum peat moss. I mixed it so it would drain fairly quickly.

Does Meyer Lemon like dry feet similar to succulents or a little more moisture than succulents? Trying to get an idea of how much water the soil should hold in between waterings.

Citrus absolutely hates having wet feet.

How much water your soil holds is driven primarily by the % of fine material in the medium - the finer the particles from which the medium is made, the more water it will hold. For example, if you have a glass jar full of marbles, there is a LOT of large air pores between the marbles. No matter how much sand or peat or compost or MG potting soil you add to the marbles, it's going to decrease air porosity (the amount of air in the soil), which is crucial to good root health, which means it's crucial to the o/a health of the plant.

Your plant will grow best when the entire soil volume is about as damp or moist as a sponge that has been wrung out thoroughly. Plants don't drink water, the take it up a molecule at a time, from the surface of soil particles surrounded by air and in vapor form from the air spaces between soil particles. So your approach insofar as how you amended the MG product, which is considered to be too water retentive to begin with by most growers, either didn't improve drainage or aeration or made it worse. In order for the grower to take advantage of superior aeration and drainage, it's essential that the medium is made up of a very large fraction of coarse material.

There are methods that work to reduce the amount of water a planting can hold, but I don't know if you have interest in that discussion as you didn't answer the questions I asked. Perlite isn't the answer in case it's suggested because you can't add enough perlite to fine materials to make an appreciable difference in air porosity or drainage because the fine particles will completely surround the perlite particles until there is so much perlite there is no longer enough enough fine materials to fill all the spaces between the perlite particles. Perlite would need to be at least 75% of the mix before the increase in aeration makes much difference. Follow the link and view image 2 to see Threshold Proportion explained, and read accompanying text to get a feel for why a large volume of coarse material is so important to aeration/drainage.

Al

Dear Me,

Cactus soil should typically have a moisture content ranging from 10% to 30% of its water-holding capacity. This range ensures that the soil is adequately moistened without being overly saturated, allowing for proper drainage and preventing waterlogged conditions.

The moisture content of citrus soil can vary depending on factors such as climate, soil type, and specific citrus tree varieties. However, in general, citrus trees prefer well-drained soil that is slightly moist but not overly saturated. The soil should be able to retain moisture while also allowing excess water to drain away.

A good rule of thumb is to aim for a soil moisture content of approximately 50-70% of the soil's field capacity. Field capacity refers to the maximum amount of water the soil can hold against the force of gravity, while still allowing excess water to drain away.

To determine the soil's moisture content, you can use a soil moisture meter or perform a simple manual test. Dig a small hole in the soil near the root zone of the citrus tree and collect a soil sample. Squeeze the soil in your hand and observe its texture and moisture level. It should feel slightly moist but not overly wet or dry. If it forms a loose ball that crumbles easily when gently pressed, it is likely within the desired moisture range.

Remember that specific citrus varieties and environmental conditions may require slight adjustments in moisture management. Monitoring the soil moisture regularly and adjusting watering practices accordingly is crucial for maintaining the ideal moisture content for your citrus trees.

@tapla Al, would anything in either of your recommended 5:1:1 or gritty mixes be detrimental specifically to citrus trees in pots, or to the safety of their fruit for consumption? I just embarked on the citrus in pots journey with a Meyer Lemon, Key Lime, and Cara Cara Orange tree. They came in very flimsy 3 gallon plastic pots, and are 5-6 feet tall. I’m looking for the best planting medium as well as a recommendation on repotting size. I plan to overwinter them inside my house so I don’t want the pots to get too heavy or the plants to get too large for moving in and out. Thank you very much in advance!

Hi, Ben. I grow all my trees (about 200) in the gritty mix, but the 5:1:1 mix should stand head and shoulders above almost anything commercially prepared based on large fractions of fine materials (peat, coir, compost, composted forest products, etc). There is nothing in either medium that would be "detrimental" to the plants, or to the fruit in terms pf consumption. All ingredients are either inert or organic for either/both.

The gritty mix, when dry, is roughly 2.5X as heavy as the 5:1:1 mix (dry). When both are at container capacity (holding as much water as they can, the difference isn't quite as stark because the 5:1:1 mix holds more water. however, the gritty mix has a wide range of adjustability insofar as water retention is concerned. By keeping the bark fraction at 1/2 of the volume and varying the ratio or Turface:grit, you can change water retention w/o sacrificing aeration. I don't know of any commercially prepared product containing peat, coir, compost, composted forest products. that can make that claim because they all hold perched water.

If you don't want your plants to get too large, the answer to that should be a pair of secateurs instead of using stress as a factor to limit growth rate. Ideally, the plant would grow as close to its genetic potential as possible, which means it should grow as fast as possible w/o sacrificing vitality or yields. One of the main reasons it should grow fast is, the chemicals plants synthesize to defend themselves against insect herbivory and disease pathogens is is a byproduct of the plant's metabolic processes; and, unfortunately they are the last in line when it comes to the pecking order of where the plant allocates its energy. Trees and herbaceous plants prioritize their parts, but perhaps it's better to say that the strength of energy sinks has a distinct order: Energy is first allocated to respiratory function, i.e. to maintenance of living tissues, then, to production of fine roots, followed by flower and seed/fruit production, then primary growth (extension of both roots and shoots), then secondary growth (thickening), and finally, the synthesis of defensive chemicals.

So, keeping your trees healthy and growing well is job 1. Use pruning to keep it limited to a manageable size.

If you're asking about pot size, that will depend on what medium you choose to grow in. The more water-retentive the medium is, the more critical pot size becomes. The inverse of that statement is also true. You can get away with growing in a much larger pot when using the 5:1:1 mix, and there is no upper limit to pot size when using the gritty mix. You could plant the tiniest seedling in a 55 gallon drum of gritty mix with no worry your plants would be required to pay an over-watering tax in the form of lost potential, or worse.

Al

I really appreciate your in-depth answer, @tapla. I didn’t mean to suggest there would be anything detrimental in either mix; I just wanted to verify whether you recommend it for all types of trees in pots, especially in this case fruit trees. Thanks for your patience.
In the interest of minimizing the wet weight to facilitate moving a larger pot in- and outdoors, I gather then that your standard gritty mix could be modified to:

-2 parts uncomposted, screened pine or fir bark fines (1/8”-1/4”)
-2 parts variable mixture of screened Turface, and crushed Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or #2 Cherrystone

For my citrus trees I also purchased a care kit including a Calcium nutrient spray so as I understand it, I can omit gypsum.

Does all of this sound correct? And if you don’t mind, could you please elaborate a bit on suggested variations in the Turface:grit ratio, as well as the correlation between this ratio and water retention? For my specific scenario, Denver tends to be pretty dry and the sun is intense at our elevation, in case that would make a particular ratio more appropriate.

For my citrus trees I also purchased a care kit including a Calcium nutrient spray so as I understand it, I can omit gypsum. Some nutrients are considered to be mobile in the plant, meaning when there is a deficiency the plant can borrow (or rob, if you prefer) nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, and magnesium from plant parts to use as the building blocks for new growth. Calcium is not among the mobile nutrients, which means that foliar uptake of calcium serves only existing leaves, leaving newly forming leaves, roots, and other cells still deficient of Ca. Your best bet is using a fertilizer that derives it's Ca from CaNO3. Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 is an excellent fertilizer and contains all nutrients (taken up via the root pathway) in soluble form in a ratio at which the average plant actually uses the nutrients.

The standard gritty mix consists of screened to size ingredients in a 1:1:1 ratio by volume. For comparison, we'll say the standard mix is:

3 parts pine or fir bark

3 parts Turface MVP

3 parts Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or cherrystone (quartzite #2 size.

For more water retention:

3 parts bark

4 parts Turface

2 parts grit or cherrystone

For less water retention:

3 parts bark

2 parts Turface

4 parts grit or cherrystone.

There will be a big difference in water retention between the 2 alternates to the basic mix, so you can often just add a bit of screened Turface or grit to the basic mix. to move the water retention needle more subtly. Avoid adding fine materials to the gritty mix as that will cause water to perch in the medium, and it makes no sense to screen the ingredients to eliminate all/almost all perched water, then add ingredients that ensure the medium will hold perched water. Might as well use a less expensive mix and one that takes less effort to make.

Al

In my experience, leaves curled in like that is from too much fertilizer of some type. I recommend not applying any more fertilizer for at least a month or longer. I have grown citrus trees, including Meyer Lemon and Dwarf Meyer Lemon, in regular Miracle Grow citrus, palm, cactus potting soil un-amended just fine. I live in Texas where it gets hot. I don't know where you are so I cannot say how that potting soil would do for you. Now is definitely NOT the time to repot the plant; it has already been through too much. I ended up giving away my lemon trees to friends. There are only so many lemons one person can use....

@tapla, thank you Al- this makes a lot of sense to me and helps a lot. The only part I’m a bit confused by is the recommended Turface product. I found a spec sheet for Turface MVP (image attached) that shows only about 16% of the particles in a given package are 1/8” - comparable size to the recommended sizes for bark fines and granite/cherry stone grit. Is it okay or even desirable for the Turface particles to be smaller than the other two primary ingredients of the gritty mix, or is it just expected that 80% of Turface MVP particles will be screened out because they are too fine?

I found another source online to purchase “Turface High Fired Calcined Clay” with particle sizes ranging from 1/4”-1/2”…might this be better since the 1/4” particles could be used immediately upon screening and the larger particles could be hammered or otherwise broken down to create more of the appropriate size particles? I’ve also seen mention of diatomaceous earth vs. calcined clay among substitutes for Turface, which just confused me more, so I’ll go with whatever you recommend. Thank you for your patience with all my beginner questions.

@tapla, good morning Al- my main concern with the above involves introducing fines smaller than 1/8” to the gritty mix. But is that ok in the case of Turface since it retains water internally, as opposed to contributing to a perched water table? The secondary concern, although still meaningful to me, would be the cost of large amounts of Turface MVP if I have to screen out about 80% of each package. Thank you

I have a citrus tree in a 15 gallon container growing in a 50/50 Turface MVP and peat moss. It has been in that blend going on 2 years and the medium still looks like it did when new. The tree has done well in that blend.

@Ben (Colorado, USDA Z5) Sorry, haven't been around much lately as the bass fishing has been nothing short of incredible.

I screen the fines out of Turface MVP over aluminum insect screen and use the fines in my beds or for hypertufa projects. Because or the expense of Turface, I don't want to be looking for a use for the fine material that makes up half or more of the bag. So, about 1/3 of the product that doesn't pass through insect screen is finer than 1/8", but because of the large average particle size, it doesn't seem to matter much at all. I've been using insect screen to screen the fines out of everything that goes into the gritty mix started using it about 40 years ago.

About 20% of the bag will be fines if you screen through insect screen.

You can use the bigger stuff if you like, if you have a way of crushing it and screening out the really fine stuff. Insect screen will still work for that, too.

Al

Thanks very much, Al! It definitely helps to know the particular size is not as crucial, and that the Turface fines can be used to promote drainage in other settings.

Enjoy the bass fishing!!

Thanks for the fish wish, but hold on a sec. People equate fast drainage with good drainage ant they are different. Washed/ builders/ torpedo sand all drain quickly, but hold an excessive amount of water in the pores between particles. Turface fines (what passes through insect screening) can be used in the gardens or beds, but they would be counterproductive in almost any grow medium. In the garden/ beds/ landscape, the earth acts as a giant wick to pull water downward away from roots, that doesn't happen in conventional container culture, which is why we need to take measures to ensure drainage and aeration are both adequate. As noted, most think sand drains well because it drains fast due to it's particles being angular and rigid, but most sand products other than horticultural sand (like fine gravel) have poor air porosity and a tall perched water table. That said, your Turface fines will work well in the garden and even increase porosity there, but they decrease porosity in containers; plus, they hold a lot of water internally.

Caught 28 bass yesterday in 6 hrs, 6 over 3 lbs, + 2 smallish pike maybe 3 lbs each. Chores today, back to fishing tomo.

Al

UPDATE: Potted Meyer Lemon Tree

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to give an update on my potted Meyer Lemon tree. But it looks like somehow Ben hijacked my post!

At any rate, I've attached a pic of the tree. Changes made were taken from suggestions of raising the pot off the water and I believe it was definitely stressed from transplant. Some of the older leaves still look curled as before, but the new growth is looking good. Will restrain from watering too much as suggested. I also think giving it more acidic soil helped alot as well... Which is what I should have done to begin with.

Thanks Everyone for your help!

Don't worry about the old leaves, they won't get better. As long as the new growth looks good then the tree is doing better.....good luck!

@KM, sorry for co-opting your thread a bit there, but I hope it was as much of a learning experience for you as it was for me. @tapla is the preeminent authority on container gardening on this forum.

@tapla Al, regarding Turface fines, do I understand correctly that they would be helpful for in-ground trees in flat or otherwise insufficiently drained areas? I do have some trees like that and would love to put the Turface fines to good use.

On the other end of the spectrum I couldn’t seem to locate uncomposted pine or fir bark fines so I went with the alternative of Repti Bark in 24 qt bags I’ve seen recommended. Only trouble is, at least before screening the average piece size appears to around 1/2”. I avoided SoilPep because it appears to be composted so I assume it would break down too quickly. Will exceeding 3/8” on the bark fines be a big problem for the gritty mix?

Also, do you prefer/recommend gypsum or Foliage Pro 9-3-6 more for trees in pots?

I’m very sorry to keep bugging you and I really appreciate your time and effort in answering these rookie questions.

.... probably not appropriate to reply on this thread, given KM's gentle observation. Copy/paste your question HERE. I'll see it.

Al

Good point, again sorry KM. I pasted my question where you suggested @tapla, and won’t post anything further on this thread.