I like option 1 too. Looks cleaner. More light with biggee windows. It flows better. I'm not sure about the microwave in the island from option 2....

Make sure the microwave is a drawer one if it's under a counter.

In plan #1 - The beverage center I'm assuming has a fridge at the location for cream and sparkling water? Does it also come with it's own set of mugs and glasses because otherwise there is going to be a lot of walking over to the cabinets to get spoons, mugs glasses etc.

I think layout #2 is a little more compact. Everything is on one side of the space.

With the microwave in the island you won't be able to fit a stools at the end. And the corner stools will be taking up the same knee space.

54" is pretty wide for an island and makes it difficult to reach the middle for cleaning. What else will be under there or will there be a 30" hangover of counter. That will have to be supported in some way.

More windows…so sink and dish washer can be on outer wall..washing dishes is much more bearable with a view or at least some natural light….stove opposite on island…much better place to cook in order to interact while cooking…just have to rotate to put things in sink..a little sink on the island is never regretted for lots of reasons

Dunno, I am kind of drawn to #2, possibly because of my aversion to corners :) And that 36" aisle between trash and appliance garage in #1 seems tight. Also seems like a lot of countertop to the right of the stove, with nothing to do there (maybe plate up the meals, but still) . Can you make more windows to the left and right of the stove, to make up for the other shorter window?

However if you do go with #2, I'd definitely switch up the order of the things in the island. Put the microwave on the end near the fridge, that way people cruising in for snacks can go from refrigerator to micro without getting up in your cooking "business."

And, I would not seat people on the short end of the island - they'll block that aisle

So nice to have it gutted, and a blank slate! Enjoy the planning!

Neither. Not enough room on the island for prepping and you want to prep next to your sink.

Also neither gives you natural light in the kitchen.

Question: Is there a slider or door from the living room to the patio?

@cpartist there are three huge windows between family room to the patio. It's so bright there. And now that we've taken the wall out between the kitchen and family room, there's more light coming into the kitchen.

@ sharzia

Must ask........is there a second story option for that laundry room? Given you are only 2. 5 people?

Wow.........could make a great space with that gone....: ) a really natural lead to formal dining and living too.

Option 2, because I don't like having the fridge and beverage center be orphans as they are in option 1.

I vote against the white appliances too. They don't say luxury to me, and I think they will be dated soon. High end and custom to me means integrated paneled appliances that disappear, or professional-style stainless steel appliances.

Oh my goodness @janmoyer...don't give me ideas!!! My husband will kill me...buttttt whatcha thinking if we blew it out? The living room gets gorgeous light! The house faces northeast so it's super bright except the kitchen.

Also @janmoyer I've been staring at your proposed plan and first off, thank you kindly for drawing it out. Really appreciate and understand it. It's beautiful and balanced.

It helps to know the fridge can go on other end too bc it was feeling hunky on the left.

Also clearly the back wall of cabs wins. Definitely allows for that generous clearance.

Few questions

• can I sneak in 1 or 2 stools on the 12" left on the right side of island near hallway instead of cabinetry there. Still gives symmetry but would love the function.
• is there room for a breakfast nook? Even a petite round table for my husband and daughter would be great
• and I know this is blasphemy to say but I've never liked the look of stainless steel bc I'm a light and airy kind of gal...I've actually preferred white since 2012, lol! But it's not a deal breaker to me. All high end kitchens do have it so I could be convinced :)
• and since we're talking about colors...pure white on back cabs and stain grade white oak in a light stain on island works?

Thx!

Neither. If you want a breakfast nook, neither gives you space to open doors or fridge when someone is at the table. plan gives you all the things without feeling crowded

Jan’s plan

And now that we've taken the wall out between the kitchen and family room, there's more light coming into the kitchen.

The house faces northeast so it's super bright except the kitchen.

So which of your two statements is correct?

@cpartist - both are correct. The kitchen gets more light now but it's not super bright. The rest of the house gets ample light.

WELLLLLLL !!!!

If the laundry for 2.5 folks could go upstairs?

You'd have five really great FEET for a coffee bar/slash drinks set up/ tea/ after dinner etc

Easy peasy in the am.... and wonderful in the evening.

Or.. don't make me go nuts here..

But you could get a 24 inch wine/tall dual temp and use the remaining 36 inches a coffee/bar.

It just seems to me, all your text suggests a bigger entertaining function than a daily rigor of three meals lol TO PREP AND CLEAN.

Yes, you have room for the small breakfast area at the patio side. It's two or three of you, and anymore than that, the dining room is right there.

Regarding finish on apps -

Don't set yourself up for future doom. Stainless crosses ALL brands, Sub Zero excels at cooling. Bosch in DW......Sharp makes EVERY drawer microwave ......and ranges? I have nobody who does not love that Monogram, as would any caterer . I have no client who doesn't love it. Not one.

Don't forget the glasses : )

OMG.

@cpartist - both are correct. The kitchen gets more light now but it's not super bright. The rest of the house gets ample light.

That's why I was thinking if there was a way to flip the breakfast area and kitchen so at least you'd have natural light in your kitchen.

@ Shazia

Go look at how much more light would flood that "bar in the hall" from the DINING room window...

Just sayin : )

@JAN MOYER - daydreamed about this all afternoon yesterday! Then stopped by the house and remembered something. The laundry room drops to 8' and has all the HVAC in the ceiling. We already moved what we can to expand the hallway between the kitchen and dining room. So the winner is your option you originally sent!

also, yes to this comment you made! " It just seems to me, all your text suggests a bigger entertaining function than a daily rigor of three meals lol TO PREP AND CLEAN. " :)

going to go back and finalize these plans to start getting the details in place!

@cpartist good thought about the light but the issue really is the placement of the kitchen in relation to the house. and b/c the space is tighter on the other side with the garage and patio walkway, i think it would limit what we can do. the island b/c of depth needs to sit where we took the wall out to the family room for aisle clearance. but i kept your question in mind and noticed the light we get now should be enough to make the airy not feel dark.

i think it would limit what we can do.

Yes I was noticing that might be an issue.

The other solution to look into is putting narrow windows on either side of the cooktop. It's what I have in my kitchen and even though my kitchen wall faces north, it does help a lot.

@JAN MOYER went back to drawing board with your plan and have some questions:

• I made the beverage station 64” in keeping symmetry around the window so I had to shift the dimensions. i think this messed things up...
• b/c now there isn't symmetry on the back wall to the island (i tried to fix that with moving the sink over but it's clearly not solving the issue
• this also leaves only 2" clearance on right side of fridge (your drawing had 6" when i calculated it - is that what's needed to open properly?)
• Also microwave can go in either spot - was just playing around with it next to fridge but will likely use your original plan and keep plates and everyday plateware next to fridge. i feel like the microwave keeps getting in the way!

Microwave only needs a 24" cabinet. Some will want a 30" to match another appliance (oven - whatever) stacked and so will add a trimkit to extend it to 30"

Will it help your measurements if you only use 24" for it?

Or do you still have room in the island for it as I think it's going to be undercounter?

Regarding what Jan drew for you:

No one will notice if the island lines up with the back wall. You don't need symmetry in a real kitchen. They only time anyone will notice if it's not perfectly symmetrical is when they're standing dead center in front of the island and trust me; no one does that.

@cpartist I thought symmetry is what makes a kitchen beautiful? Most high end/thoughtfully designed kitchens have some sort of symmetry

@blfenton that’s helpful to know!

Balance

It's a far better word than symmetry. People get hung up on "perfect inches" ......completely unimportant.

Cpartist is correct....: )

As to inches needed to fully open 90* fridge doors:

I used six, basically just a guesstimate for door w/handle. For cleaning/removing bins etc.

However, know that cabinetry is usually multiples of THREE inches, so there is no reason you can't do the two flanking the range @ 27inches: ) vs. 30.

If you truly want "luxury" ? Knowing you have the beverage center, and the fact, that you are two and a half people? That you have a nine foot ceiling? Maybe Sub Zero for you, even 36"?

You will get a million posts saying you don''t NEED SZ.

I will say........................they OWN the cooling class. For a reason. It's longevity!!! And no kidding, that 84 inch height IS a better look in a nine foot high kitchen. Clad or un clad.

@JAN MOYER @cpartist thought you may want to see the draft of the kitchen design since you helped so much with this!

Always open to feedback. We want to tweak for function and then we'll move to making it pretty.

We've been getting stuck on the back wall and how to make it pop. Trying different colors/glass finishes/etc. Black glass fronts on the back cabs looked STUNNING! But I'm worried that I can't use it for everyday ware and it might be too trendy...and may not go with my look of Malibu Luxe/Coastal Glam.

Make sure you can FULLY open that right fridge door to 90* and............

Are you cladding fridge in oak or not?

If not? I'd leave entire back perimeter cabs in white, and change HOOD ONLY to oak.

It's not a sin to have simple : ) If you want black?

Maybe faucet and pendants. Black pulls on island only with same style pull in satin nickel on white cabs.

@JAN MOYER Yes, we'll confirm the dimensions once fridge is purchased - have an appt with Ferguson on Monday to see our options! I know you said SubZero but I already have to figure out how I'm going to convince my husband how to spend thousands extra on an appliance we already have, lol! I may in the short term select a fridge and then build out for a fridge that we select in the custom cabinetry to buy us some time.

That being said - probably not cladding the fridge b/c well that adds in about another $3k, lol!

Ok, let me get the design in white for back cabs.

For hood - I was thinking plaster to mirror the fireplace we're updating in the living room across the way. Cohesiveness and that coastal, clean look?

I don't love black actually - it just looked striking on as glass on cabinets so I'll leave hardware champagne bronze.

I probably need a new thread at this point since we're getting to finishes!

Do not start a new thread!!!

ok @JAN MOYER @cpartist @blfenton and anyone else here and reading...I'm here to discuss finishes.

I feel like my kitchen looks so boring. But Jan said simple isn't a sin so I'm listening...and also maybe I want to be bad, bad girl (j/k!).

Ok, so we're continuing to tweak this design here and I believe the jujh will come from hardware, beautiful counters, backsplash (carry the counters up or do that pretty zellige tile?), barstools, pendants above island, chandelier above breakfast table, sconces at the beverage station, etc.

My issue is I love striking but I also love pretty and classic. My style is a Malibu Luxe so maybe I'm overthinking all of this (I am known to do this, lol!).

Here are some inspo pics of kitchens we do like:

also @Rabbitt Design created this beautiful rendering of our exact kitchen and it started helping me think BIG. We'll likely keep the same layout as above for our family's functionality but this screams DAMN.

I feel stuck on the final look of my kitchen.

All thoughts are welcome :)

The kitchen is beautiful however if you like Malibu luxe and want pretty I would pick different island pendants. Think along the lines of what Rabbit designed - something a little more wow. I think the kitchen can handle it. What you have suggested I don't think fits your vision.

How do you intend to open that fridge door with it up against the wall?

What is the aisle width between the sink and stove?

Stove should not be opposite the stove

Numero UNO?! Why this new thread?

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6372475/engineered-wood-vs-real-hardwood-floors#n=4

The floor is a part of the kitchen!!! is it not? And it affects the cabinet finish.

If you want the look of European oak? You do engineered - which IS wood. Nothing wrong with sand on site white oak, just a bigger challenge marrying with oak in the kitchen for harmony. Meaning you need to know EXACTLY what the oak in the kitchen will look like in finish.

Number Two:

A million years ago......I said " Filler right of the fridge, you have to be able to open the doors : )

Cabinets flanking hood:

No. No No as rendering. Total kludge. The glass is too narrow and appears " I couldn't make up my mind. There is NO need for two doors. up and down......a single door, one piece of hardware, and the box has a "floor" at the top, allowing display . The tiny foot high doors just look awful.

Look here below.......its ONE door for those glass uppers

The glass built into a single door. Would be same if the door were vertically ALL glass.

Interior Design Work · More Info

Second, don't expect a computer elevation, even one as detailed as Rabbitt to give you the texture of the real thing. The shine, the drier effect of oak, soft gleam, or even color.

Take the four screen shots below, individually. Start with white, oak, how much. Then? The stools and pendants. ....... the hardware. Do they look as boring as the stools in your rendering? No.

What appeals in each photo?? Which of the four appeals MOST. That's the important question, and NOT ONE, btw is as in your face /drama as the Rabbitt: )

Every single one is accessorized, has some contrast......is a bit layered. The windows don't appear as blue Saran Wrap.: ) as your computer rendering.......

comments in line here in bold italics:

Numero UNO?! Why this new thread?

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6372475/engineered-wood-vs-real-hardwood-floors#n=4

The floor is a part of the kitchen!!! is it not? And it affects the cabinet finish.

If you want the look of European oak? You do engineered - which IS wood. Nothing wrong with sand on site white oak, just a bigger challenge marrying with oak in the kitchen for harmony. Meaning you need to know EXACTLY what the oak in the kitchen will look like in finish.

I love you @JAN MOYER!! Ok, I'll throw the other thread out with the trash! :)

Number Two:

A million years ago......I said " Filler right of the fridge, you have to be able to open the doors : )

Yes, we'll have 6" filler to the right, this isn't the final rendering - just what I had in the meanwhile but we will for sure have the space. Custom cabinet company comes on Monday!

Also @cpartist to your other question, right now we've got 45" aisle in back. I'll have a final number once cabinet folks do their dimensions. We're pushing for 48" but because we did a larger island (117"), we need at least 42" of thoroughfare between the other walkways.

Cabinets flanking hood:

No. No No as rendering. Total kludge. The glass is too narrow and appears " I couldn't make up my mind. There is NO need for two doors. up and down......a single door, one piece of hardware, and the box has a "floor" at the top, allowing display . The tiny foot high doors just look awful.

Look here below.......its ONE door for those glass uppers

The glass built into a single door. Would be same if the door were vertically ALL glass.

Got it, will make it one door for each upper. This is also where I need a lot of help. I don't know what to do for those back cabs to make it look custom and nice. I noticed I love the look of glass in inspo photos b/c it's light and airy so we put it there but I don't think it does much. The newer rendering will have all glass flanking the hood and glass on top of the two other uppers but still...it just feels blase. Is the issue the widths of the cabinetry? Is it the finishes? Would it be better to do sconces instead and forego the glass cabinets?

Second, don't expect a computer elevation, even one as detailed as Rabbitt to give you the texture of the real thing. The shine, the drier effect of oak, soft gleam, or even color.

Take the four screen shots below, individually. Start with white, oak, how much. Then? The stools and pendants. ....... the hardware. Do they look as boring as the stools in your rendering? No.

What appeals in each photo?? Which of the four appeals MOST. That's the important question, and NOT ONE, btw is as in your face /drama as the Rabbitt: )

Every single one is accessorized, has some contrast......is a bit layered. The windows don't appear as blue Saran Wrap.: ) as your computer rendering.......

Yes, I've noticed I love dimension (the layering), light and airy, some contrast and drama, organized, pleasing to the eye like you feel comfy when you look at it, balance, and overall pretty.

l'll sit down with my husband and do this exercise over some photos. We have inspo photos in Houzz too so let me do my homework!

Ok, I sat down with my husband again and really narrowed down our inspo pics and got clear on our preferences:

What we LIKE:

• Paned window for our window that we have (we have to change it out so we can do a white or black pane - husband prefers black panes unless we do a very light kitchen overall, then he's fine with white)
• Dramatic Light fixtures
• Mixed tones - not one dimensional. So either the island in a different color or bottom cabinetry in another color.
• Inset cabinets preferred but would be ok with a frameless look too. Shaker style - a step bevel (a little more traditional) OR a thin bevel (a little more modern)
• Glass on top - but is this totally dated now? I still prefer more glass but my hubby not so much

I'll get into more details on the inspo pics below:

Here are the two kitchens we both love (I'll call them Black Kitchen and Wood Kitchen for the context of this post)

Black Kitchen: who doesn't love this kitchen? I love the U seating. The kitchen overall is balanced and it's striking. My husband likes the hood, the black glass cabs and black paned glass. I also like the black glass cabinetry too. It pops! Not sure if we could use this as our primary inspo pic b/c the kitchen doesn't get a ton of light so I would be weary of going too black heavy. However, we both loved this pic!

Wood Kitchen: This kitchen makes me say WOW! I love it so much. this is my top pic. It's so light and airy and I love that island with the wood grain (my hubby hates that though so it's out for us!). The wood hood is just so drama and pretty. I like the touch of glass but not too much. Hubby likes that it's dimensional with the tone of wood on the bottom and white up top. We also like the floors.

Hubby likes the light pendants in this - he keeps gravitating towards these fixtures and prefers the white here but also loves the black version of it. I also picked out this pic b/c it has the plaster hood that was recommended to coordinate with the plaster fireplace we're doing across the way in the family room. Not sure they have to coordinate though but might look cohesive

I have loved this light fixture forever! it's the Zgallerie Hollis 24" wide and I so wish I could do these too as pendants. I know the kitchen pendants need to be task lighting and I do like my hubby's choice above too so I'm ok foregoing these...but they really are gorgeous!

Sooooo what are your thoughts on our finishes for the kitchen? :)

Want to know?

Go get a white oak cabinet door. and a white shaker. The white oak? It needs to be a factory finish to get the images/tone you covet here. It is QUITE difficult to achieve local/custom/stained.

Then? You take both of those finishes and go engineered floor shopping. ......planning that ONE floor will go all over that first floor, : )

As to inspo pics. You only have so much room. Your layout is at this point as final as can be.

Black? It's an accent. Why ? You are looking at a kitchen that approaches 300 K AND IS THREE times the size of yours.

Which is why you first take BOTH the white and the oak doors and go floor shopping. Then you print each of those inspos and work on what is white, what is oak..... and No I don't see a black Island.yet : )

And you must decide how much function,which is back to square one. Don't need uppers? Add windows. .........................................................

KA CHING

You don't want your cooktop directly opposite your sink. Especially if you don't have a minimum of 48" between what sticks out furthest on the stove and the edge of the counter on the island.

Also what is the distance between island and table?

You have too many small narrow cabinets. Less cabinets that are wider! (You'll thank me if you do so. ;) )

The newer rendering will have all glass flanking the hood and glass on top of the two other uppers but still...it just feels blase.

You don't want glass flanking the hood. You'll be constantly needing windex on them.

For heavens sake!!! Stop!! staring at the computer rendering! It's not a good one. Quality of the program : (

There's only so much that can happen with the wall ..... Get some colored pencils. Turn the hood to oak....! To match the island. Try all the lowers in oak!

It's Mothers DAY, STOP OBSESSING UNTIL YOU GO FLOORING SHOPPING

OR.......

CLAD the fridge in oak. Build a backless "cabinet" oak frame cabinet With glass shelves in front of that window. Yes it will be a night mare to clean.

For now? Set it aside until you have looked at floors........and tops.

Coming back from a lovely mother's day out @jan_moyer, thank you!

Catching up now...

Ok definitely not back to square one! I love the function of this kitchen and have mapped out all the organization of it too.

The thing still possible to change/modify/nix are the glass uppers next to hood.

Otherwise I want to make the layout pop with the finishes.

What place will let me take actual cabinet doors? And who has white oak? I've gone to Prosource and the wood options seemed a bit too traditional or glazed. Not sure if it's a Texas thing but it seems like custom is the only way to get the trendy white oak look. And then they give these small samples - didn't think to ask to take a door!

I've got two cases of flooring coming this week so I can put it out and look in person in the house. I've done extensive research on floors at this point too so it's about finalizing the color. Btw, let's not even get started on the undertones of these floors!

@cpartist 48" b/w island and breakfast table. I'll show you new dimensions tomorrow. We did widen more cabinetry but again, the ones right next to the hood are the issue 😂 Why can't stove be behind sink?

I have my stove …across from 🤷🏻‍♀️…the sink..and love the convenience of it…we have a big ..deep sink…and as I finish cooking the pans go right into the sink…ready for washing …whenever I am ready…the dishwasher is nearby as well ..so everything goes into the sink…out of view til I either wash or put them into the dishwasher…

btydrvn my sink is also across from my cooktop; just not directly across.

here's the updated and close to final plan. My main question is still on what to do with those uppers. @cpartist @JAN MOYER you both mentioned the width of the thin one so should I just go ahead and have those cabinets be the same size with only glass on top and call it a day? Or do something else?

Also, I spoke to cabinet company today and if we make the back cabs in the island 12" instead of 15", we'll definitely get the 48" clearance according to paper. Also our GC today did a measurement of the space and built a 'plywood' island that's 54"x118" and we still were able to get 48" clearance with 42" walkways in the other sections. I'm feeling much better about the breathing room in general!

Fix those kludgy cabinets! No, Windex will not kill you, you barely cook as I recall....and there are far better glass cleaners.

I purposely did it by hand - because your brain is freed when you do, I detest computer render,

Look!

I wouldn't like glass cabinets on either side of the stove (I got tired of cleaning glass cabinets by the stove in a rental), but hey, if you rarely cook, then go for it. And if you do, do it like Jan shows. Otherwise do it like Jan shows but without the glass cabinets.

Notice how Jan made the lowers wider too? You don't need a lot of narrow cabinets on either side of the stove. Wider cabinets are better.

@cpartist in full alignment about wider drawers. so we did them next to bev fridge for better storage. and also the cabinets run on each side of range is 48" so can't have one drawer there. did 30" and 18" lowers on each side of range when we organized the kitchen. I'm thinking this gives the function and look?

So pretty @JAN MOYER! I'm a YES!

• to confirm - this is white paned glass or is it black paned glass on cabinets?
• the backless glass cabinet on left - is there a pic of this somewhere? I scoured the internet and couldn't find something.
• We'd like to use that counter as our beverage station so could we just do a paned window (we have to replace the window anyways). Black or white?

Thx!

When you covet the look of black muntins or frames in all these images on line? The best are METAL.

It's an entirely different look and feel in standard windows with standard muntins.

When you do an all glass, doored upper cabinet?

These usually have pre -drilled holes for shelves. BEWARE.... you ONLY need the vertical muntin!! The SHELVES ( front edge ) behind the glass "create" the horizontal. Failure to do that? They will never line up. It will make you insane.

As to over the beverage area? If you pane that window? Check out the difference online. I have to run : )