as to the points about costs and overall scope . Since fireplace isnt used and you have a 2nd one in family room anyway......consider option of removal of fireplace.....place patio door there...then kitchen can expand into dining zone with added wall to push over....... rather than completely move into dining zone. imagine this instead of fireplace wall....or other standard sliding / or french doors.

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You can use the old kitchen for a coffee bar, maybe add a beverage fridge and a small sink. In the new kitchen you'll end up with less counter and storage if you only use one wall so your pantry and MW and other small appliances can be stored in the old kitchen as well.

Here's what I have.

Oh I love this! I will play around with it a bit but this is gorgeous at first glance!!

Do you have the dishwasher left of the sink??

What do you think @sena01? We'd probably do a countertop "desk" in that spot in the old kitchen and would need some filler spots and shelves added of course.

I strongly dislike the 'butlers pantry' (which is not a butlers pantry) kitchen-behind-the-kitchen idea. Others have pointed out that you may well spend more with these room-switching ideas than to just take the damn wall out and do something like @Rabbitt Design sketched. Besides the cost implications, the coffee bar / butlers pantry smacks of an afterthought ("gee, what do we do with all this leftover space?") rather than intentional space planning.

We might still remove the wall! Just trying to explore other possibilities to see what we can come up with!

Yes, the dw, sink then a cab facing dining table.
It’s up to you to have whatever you need/want/afford in any part of your house. At the age of 67, a counter hight desk is not too practical for me, but if I remember correctly your children work from home so I don’t see why you should not have a desk there.

I'd get an a.r.c.h.i.t.e.c.t in there, asap, along with a very good independent kitchen designer.

This isn't as simple as "let's take a wall down, and make a bigger kitchen."

Best money you could spend, before you spend a 100k.

Hate the two kitchens idea. You'd be spending a lot more money on cabinetry and counters to end up with two pretty cramped spaces. Guarantee you never use the "back kitchen" for anything but as a pass through space or maybe storage, which is not worth spending, IDK, 1/3 of your $100k budget on.

I agree that you would be well advised to get a professional who isn't a contractor involved. But I think at this stage it's becoming obvious that you can only pick two of three: (1) stick to your budget (2) keep the big windows and (3) have a bigger, more functional kitchen.

I agree with everyone urging you to get a second opinion on the wall. We took out a load bearing wall as part of a project and it was not that expensive or that big a deal to get a structural engineer to figure it out. It sounds like your contractor isn't really up to the job, TBH.

I hear you. And our contractor can and would take down that wall. It’s not his fault the homeowners want to see how to save some money on a large project that is one of many. I’m really liked the layout posed above. More context: the kitchen toward the front of the house meets our needs: open, more functional, more storage. Definitely not as cramped although about the same size as the original. I work from home without a dedicated office and am thinking through how we might use the “second kitchen” for that by adding doors. That would solve two issues for us. Thanks to everyone for their input! We have a lot to consider!

We have a proposed plan that gets us everything we want in a kitchen and gives us two major bonuses: an office and a bar area near our back deck and back family room. It involves taking out one window but we can leave the wall.

This is a very odd layout.. I may render it so you can see for yourself.

put the door to office where diagonal chair is. you go in/out closer to hallway.....hallway leads to other areas. then close office door into kitchen. you can set a cart in office w a coffee pot and even small dorm fridge if you want. I dont think 2 doors is needed and I dont think office/kitchen opening is needed. so you can close up that 11 foot wall and put fridge/ stove there or stove/ sink there......create L shape for your kitchen work triangle w 11 foot wall and other wall only needs to be 12 feet or so......then peninsula w seating can be longer. or maybe small island instead of peninsula, once you get fridge onto one of the walls. .

My husband is adamant that he does not want to completely cut off access from the kitchen to the back door through the office. I tried to convince him to no avail. The door that leads from the office to the back of the house is not in a hallway. It opens to a sliding door and family room.

@rabbit design can you elaborate on what you find odd?

why do you want to cross the entire length of family room to get to office.....off hallway make immediate right into opening where diag chair is shown........otherwise part of family room becomes a traffic lane. not necessary. so you now create two new traffic lanes into office...one through your family room...and new one through your kitchen .

If you look at our whole floor plan I posted at the start of the thread you will see that’s not the case

have you ever had a home office: there is work from home here......you state there are 3 kids and 2 adults who work from home in your setting. I really suggest home office be away from kitchen. or at least close that kitchen /office wall up. since you have confidence in family room opening that should be enough and you say family room is not used that much.....you can add another desk/counter over there and a coffee bar at that end of family room.

Thank you @Rabbitt Design! I will try to incorporate your feedback!

Rabbitt-

Wow, that was just great! You really went above and beyond! What you said about the project was so on point, too. Great contribution!!

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I put the window back but it means moving the fridge back toward the dining room and keeping that offset in one version. We can’t do anything about the hallway, couch and TV locations in the front room. This house design leaves a lot to be desired to start with! But how “bad” would offset dining/fridge built ins be there? I’m know not ideal from a design standpoint but if it meets our needs functionally and we plan to be in the house long term, what wins out? Taking away the office-kitchen door is a dealbreaker for my husband so I’m not sure what other options I have. Posting three below for feedback. One does remove that door in case it seems much better and maybe I can convince him! Thank you!

I think no. 3 looks best. My husband doesn’t want a pocket door but he would have to compromise on that! We also cannot vent the stove to the outside from that spot because of HVAC location. Are the charcoal filter systems OK for induction stoves? We currently do not have any venting!

Some revisions. The wall could be open or have a cabinet, depending on how negotiations go with my husband lol. Should I turn the table? I am willing to just get a different one as I don’t want our massive table driving the design. How much space do I need between the edge of the table and the peninsula? @Rabbitt Design if you have time to take a quick look, I very much appreciated your feedback!

Well, to be blunt, all of these layouts stink compared to opening up the wall.

I think what Rabbit Design is getting at with his video is that the LR and DR spaces will always feel like transition spaces, never fully comfortable to relax in, because of the locations of hallways, walkways, windows, the fireplace, etc. Why is office access to kitchen a dealbreaker? Whatever the reason, it makes the kitchen worse.

IMO this is all very penny-wise, pound-foolish and you would do well to hire an architect.

I could't exactly follow what's being discussed above but I give you a fourth opton to confuse you more lol!

Can you turn the sectional the other way?

Opening up the wall doesn't change the hallways, walkways, orientation of the fireplace, sectional/TV location, windows, etc. Do people understand which wall I'm referring to? I have yet to see a plan with the wall gone that meets our needs. Adding an office as part of this is a huge win for how we use our house. Houzzers love to tell people to live in a house before doing major remodels. We've been here two years and are wanting to make it functional for our family, an improvement over what we had, and an improvement worth our money. Appreciate specific feedback on this to make the designs better, but general negativity you can feel free to not share. Not everyone has unlimited budgets to get to perfection during remodels.

@sena01 we have considered that, or getting smaller sectional. my husband bought it for a former house and it fits but is not our forever solution. it's not in the budget to buy something new right now. we could try turning it to see how that looks though!

Although it may seem harsh I agree that you should hire a good designer or architect. You have a complicated floor layout, things to solve for, and it takes work to get there. These layouts proposed all have plenty of problems. You can get some free and passing ideas here but ultimately someone charged with solving a difficult or complicated design will get you to where you should be. A good architectural designer might be 6% of your project cost and may even improve your property value by more than that…. Consider it, your project is one that I would suggest it for.

@rabbit design thank you. I do not consider your feedback harsh! It’s very much appreciated. Perhaps it’s my fault that I did not get into the details of how we got here. We consulted with and got multiple bids from GCs and done design-build forms. All agreed that the only thing that made sense for the house was connecting the kitchen and dining rooms and making best use of that space. All bids except one came in well over $100k for wall removal and a fairly basic remodel in terms of materials, kitchen size, etc. Labor is extremely expensive here. All bids assumed the wall to not be structural. It is and there was also a soffit hiding HVAC and plumbing. We went ahead with moving that because it would have prevented everything except putting our kitchen back in its original space (less than 10 feet wide and riddled with windows and doors). But those costs put us at our overall budget with the wall still in place. To stay anywhere close to what we expected for a fairly modest remodel (minus wall removal which is always major), we have to work within the current layout and its constraints. I very much appreciate everyone who has chimed in with ideas and possible redirections to go in. I don’t think there is a miracle layout for this house that’s in our budget, so “the best we can” - but far from perfect - is what we are hoping to find. I guess spending more money to hire someone else is going to have to be that route.

I will add that this process has been nothing but frustrating and demoralizing. Our GC has been in business 20 years and is highly regarded. He said he’s never had so many issues. The structural engineer could not believe some of the choices made here in the 80s and also suspects some homeowner work contributed. Her initial plan was feasible given oddities in the design of our house. Her backup plan involves a 17 foot steel beam and a host of dominoes that could fall depending on what’s found during demo in our basement. We’re just looking for a path forward that gets us back in our house, a bigger more functional kitchen, and with some money left in the bank.

*plan was not feasible

@sena01 … love that but we have a max of 77 inches we can open along the wall starting on the window side. Or the beam goes in. We might be stuck going that direction and taking the wall out at this point

If anyone has a great idea on what we could do of the wall we’re gone, I’d appreciate it. My judgment has probably been clouded with thoughts of my own office at this point

That’s making me question our original plan

home office is good/ single entry from family room is good/ gain of wall in kitchen for the L shape is good. can you skooch the peninsula in since you have the two kitchen walls which should provide you w better wall and base storage. I could see a small attractive work cart in the center kitchen floor space now . does skooching the peninsula in assist you? I would try to because even with dining table turned that is a major walkway and the stools have been pushed out a bit too far I think.

attractive small carts:

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Hi, Just wondering if your family might consider yet another option.

If so, give some thought to moving the office into the dining room, and setting it up so that the desk/filing/etc can be closed up when the workday is done. (Think cabinets.) Maybe it takes up the wall shared with the powder room and laundry. (Bonus points if desk chair can be concealed.) Other lounge-type seating near those big windows. And the important door to the kitchen can stay. Maybe a peninsula coming off the LR end of the cabinet run is possible. Or maybe a glass wall between new office and dining room. A sketch would help, but that’s beyond me. Sorry.

Re-positioning the major appliances in the existing kitchen might help. I’d suggest moving the sink around the corner to be by the other corner window. Move the range down toward the corner might help. That could free up some space for a peninsula to come off the outside wall at the FR end (microwave there now?). Microwave to a drawer under the peninsula counter. Now I’m hoping the fridge will fit on the new sink wall by the office door. I think a counter-depth fridge might. The current pantry wall could have a countertop across from the fridge with microwave over it if that fits your lifestyle better. I’m puzzled about why the range hood isn’t (or can’t) be properly vented. (I moved a range in a previous house, and the GC just cut a hole in the wall above it.) That might be a question to ask architect/contractor/somebody. Just some options to think about.

I’m sorry for your frustration. Good luck with getting your project going.

Thanks! I will play with this suggestion tomorrow. The current range is not vented. We'd like to put the range where it can be but there is prime spot along one wall with metal HVAC ducting that prevents it from hitting between joists. We're hoping to avoid that spot but we have so many constraints that it may be a concession.

Some ideas if you decide to remove the wall b/w the kitchen and the dining room.

I assumed wall thickness just as 5" so have 6'10" b/w the windows in those rooms. In the current kitchen assumed wall b/w the window and the slider as 100". I'm not sure where you'll be able to vent though. I tried but failed to center the dining table (42x72) across the window.

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If you decide to leave the wall and have the kitchen in the current DR I suggest to keep the cabs on the peninsula inside the DR and have only the overhang to protrude to the living room (hope that makes sense).

Please post a sketch of the upstairs and downstairs so that we can understand the condition surrounding the wall.
Using canvas, a Lidar scanning app, or Polycam you can scan your upstairs and downstairs and upload those results here.

All three floors @Rabbitt Design

If I could redesign the whole main floor, I would. I don’t know who thought the laundry room and half bath made sense there but they don’t. Moving either is well beyond our budget though.

Load Path and drop/flush beam video response

Thank you Rabbit Design!

After a lot of thought and weighing pros and cons, we’re moving forward with the wall in place. Thank you to everyone who weighed in with thoughts and ideas. We took them all into account in the revised design, though I’m sure not all of you will agree with some of the choices. We’re moving the kitchen fully to the old dining room. The old kitchen becomes a small hall with built-in pantry, a lovely home office, and wine bar. Every inch of the kitchen is maxed out for storage with drawers and no dead corners (pullouts in those cupboards). We did some uppers and incorporated some shelves for openness. The full length windows stay to provide tons of natural light, and it’s open to our dining and family rooms. (The square in the middle of the kitchen is a movable island/work table)

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