A city is a city wherever it's located?

What does being Southern have to do with 15 minute cities? I dissed my own town's transportation. But it doesn't make it unpleasant to live. There are plenty of erudite and kind people. Great resources. I could go on. Boston having organized transport doesn't make it a 15 minute city, or desirable to me; I wouldn't live there for any amount of money. Not for the reasons you think. But this wasn't about your dislike or my dislike of parts of the country. Why derail this?

You want to ask about the transportation issues? Or we're you puzzled about why I bring up all parts of the country? How can I answer your question since you start out one place, but end up elsewhere?

All 15 minute cities can't contain all the needs/wants of one place. You have to be able to get to other places. It's hard to live without a car if the public transportation can't make up the difference. I've answered what pertains to this thread.

Thanks for finding my typo, I've noted it. Otherwise, I think my comments were clear.

So were mine. Yet you were puzzled. Answered?

"bad" in what way bad? Pollution?? I don't think that is why people move to the big City. Being w/o a car is not all that unusual in many Cities with amenities. Our biggest City experienced sudden emptying due to COVID and violence incited, that should never have happened. Governments are doing everything they can think of to entice people back. There are many businesses that need workers as well as customers. In the end it's a lifestyle that many have embraced for 200years.

We really enjoyed the larger urban areas we've visited with good metro transportation. It makes everything so much more convenient, and you don't have the issues with parking. Coming from an area where this service is not available nor feasible one thing stood out. People seem to be carrying around a lot more weight where I live.

I've known more than a few people who've lived very happily in Toronto that way, for decades. They owned a car, but rarely used it (occasional big item purchases, occasional visits out of town). Toronto is an excellent city for that, in my opinion - lots of neighbourhoods lend themselves to car-free (or virtual car-free) living.

Research into who is proposing the 15 minute city concept ... and then decide for yourself.

I prefer rural communities. Trips to larger cities are planned, with specific multi stops ... saves gas in the long run. Get a neighbor to go and split the fuel expense.

As long as there is public transportation available, I am fine with it for people who are up to it. A million years ago, growing up in the Bronx, hardly anyone had a car. We shopped in our neighborhood, and we could buy only what we could carry home. Laundry was brought to and from the laundromat the same way. We walked everywhere, to school and back, to the doctor (of course, he came to our house too) and to the library and all. I think that much of NYC, certainly Manhattan, operates the same way. Where would you park a car? The people who have them pay exorbitant garage fees in order to use them to get to their weekend Hamptons estate. The city has extensive subway and bus routes, but they don't take you to exactly where you want to go. You must count on your two feet for some of the journey.

It would be fine in your "good" years, not so much when you're in your eighties, dragging your stuff around.

bragu, if the idea is a good one, what difference does it make who proposed it?

ETA: ah, I see. Misinformation.

Some conservative commentators and conspiracy theorists are increasingly convinced the concept of a “15-minute city” — an urban design principle recently embraced by cities ranging from Paris, France to Cleveland, Ohio — is the latest nefarious plot to curtail individual freedoms.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-15-minute-city-conspiracy-162fd388f0c435a8289cc9ea213f92ee

Bookwoman, isn't it ridiculous that so many confuse propaganda with truth. Over and over, a daily event.

I'm Conservative and I don't feel that way.

is the latest nefarious plot to curtail individual freedoms.

I'm not understanding this concept. How is being stuck somewhere with no personal or public transportation, away from schools, medical care, parks and stores being 'free'?

I was joking about lizard people earlier, but now the AP article is making me get the lizard vibes. Any time an unknown They that is interested in and actually sucessfully controlling the world is doing nefarious plots it's gotta be lizards.

But I can understand the CT behind the cars better. Having an increase in convient needs met means you don't need the car as much potentally. Then the They can turn around and start taxing extra wheel tax for travel. Or use it for containment if necessary?

Yeah, I have totally missed this CT. I feel like I should go lurk a couple of weird forums and find out more, lol. Some of them have picked up a lot of political flavors over the last few years and this sort of thing would have to be right up their alleys.

" Having an increase in convient needs met means you don't need the car as much potentally. Then the They can turn around and start taxing extra wheel tax for travel. Or use it for containment if necessary? "

Yeah, like they need a new reason to add a new tax (eye roll). Like most conspiracy theories, it's much ado about nothing, with too many people with too much time on their hands convinced that they're victims. Making up things like "containing" people, something that is and never was a part of the concept. It's ironic because there are so many freedoms and rights that people are losing regularly in the US in reality, and building comfortable cities for living well with limited driving needs is somehow the future idea that's driving some people nuts.

Stepping on America's love for cars is a bridge too far, I guess.

Reminds me of my childhood living between two small towns. We lived on the school district dividing line. There was always a mind set that people who lived in one were just not as good as the people in the other one. I escaped but in looking at what some want to build as furture living reminds me so much of those times. You were locked into what would be brought into your neighborhood. Strangers were suspect because, horrors, they did not live there.

It truly would be a return to small town living without the ability of access to other parts of the area. Transportation may or may not be available. If available it may not be available when you can access it.

“without the ability of access to other parts of the area. ” That is not part of any proposal I have ever seen. Of course you will have access to other areas. But you won’t be forced into a car to live your daily life because most facilities will be nearby. The idea that people will be locked into their local area is utter nonsense.

" It truly would be a return to small town living without the ability of access to other parts of the area. "

Whoever gave you that idea?

Well, I live in what I would consider a 15 minute city. OK, it's a town, not a city, but the population is about 25,000. the two contiguous and adjacent towns are about a five minute drive in either direction, and between the three, the population is around 50,000.

From my front door I can walk to the beach in 15 to 20 minutes, to the supermarkets in 5 to 10, to my doctor, physiotherapist and dentist in between 2 to 20 minutes. The nearest restaurant is about 3 minutes, the best restaurant in town is 5 minutes (on foot), and my favourite restaurants are in the 10 minute range. Clothing stores, the weekly street produce market, butchers, fishmongers and bakeries are all within that distance. So are some large public green areas. And the local sports ground (since this is Australia, we're talking cricket and Aussie rules football).

I need to get into a car to get to my hydrotherapy sessions (7 minutes) and the public hospital is slightly outside the time frame at 20 minutes, but the two local private hospitals are within about 5 minutes. I also need to get into a car to get to the big hardware store, furniture stores and the office supplies and computer stores (5 minute drive).

Public transport locally is mediocre, but once I get up the line to the nearest city (20 minutes by bus), there's a train into Melbourne (1 hr).

The point here is that my 15 minute city supplies almost all of my needs and wants in a good environment. Having to get into a car every time I run out of milk or bread is not my idea of living.

Whatever brought up this discussion and conspiracy theories (is that what CT is ??) I must have missed. Good.

Locally my neighborhood is very desirable even though it's older, smaller houses: every 'need' and many 'wants' are within walking distance.

One thing to add about being able to walk to most needs & amenities within 15 minutes: you need TIME to walk 15 minutes, both ways. Back when I was working, losing a half hour for a "quick trip" was not acceptable. But now that we're retired, walking 15 minutes is not nearly enough exercise! Expand the 15 minute radius to at least 25, and that's more realistic for us to consider a perfectly acceptable walking distance.

A lot also depends on what the walk is like. Where we live, some areas have sidewalks but many do not. At our old house we could walk, in 10 minutes, to a supermarket, bookshop, dry cleaner, etc. Now we have to drive, not only because those things are a bit farther away, but also because there are no sidewalks along many of the streets, so you take your life in your hands walking down the road.

NO. NO. NO. NO. NO! They are a GOOD thing! Why wouldn't I want everything near me. In my community where I live right now I have access to three schools at the end of my block. I have access to three major grocery stores which I can actually walk to in maybe 20 minutes tops. I have my dentist that I can walk to and there are several doctors offices here as well. There is a place I can buy my eye wear. There are so many coffee shops, restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations, car repair shops, parks and playgrounds, churches... this list goes on. In a big way, I already live in a 15 minute city. But I'm lazy and I drive to all these places.

The conspiracy theory that we will be blocked inside our area and not allowed to leave has been bunked sooooooooooooooooo many times. How would a cop or doctor get to work? There won't be a hospital or police station in each area. You wouldn't be able to leave the city so obviously travel would be banned. You think that would be allowed? Airports would go broke. We make a lot of money with tourists so that would essentially kill the tourism industry.

Stop living in fear! Stop listening to the people that have nothing better to do with their pathetic lives that they fear monger 24/7. Refuse to believe facts from fiction just because fiction fits their narrative and people hate to be wrong.

15 minute cities simply mean you don't have to travel across town to get what you need. You save money and time. You spend less at the gas station which means $ in your pocket. Less pollution because you're not using your car if you don't want to! You spend more time at home with family and friends. You spend more time getting excersize and meeting your neighbours like we did in the good old days. I don't know more than two of my neighbours and I've lived in my house 27 years! A 15 minute community means you'll get back to the basics. It's a very good thing and if you want to go to another area where maybe they have the better coffee shop, then go! Nobody is going to lock you up for it.

Yes, CT is Conspiracy Theory. It appears to be a political throw around rather than an actual CT at this time. The They seems to be leaning to being climate conglomerates or maybe urban cabals, though satanists have already been thrown into the mix according to a couple reports. Lizard people seems to be out of the mix. High rankers aren't being tagged in for Illuminati to be suspect- yet.

The phenomenon does seem to be widespread. Multiple countries have places where there is an increasing desire to have amenities closer to home. The notion of or revival of city centers being smaller and more of them. A desire to not need a personal vehicle for daily living tasks. The biggest pushbacks seem to be public transit issues and personal vehicle accessibility concerns. Some are more or less valid than others. There's a bunch of them out there to look up on.

It will be interesting to see if there ends up being a stringing between 15 minute cities and food desert neighborhoods. I haven't seen that aspect pop up in reports yet. Right now it looks like more of accessability within those 15 minute neighborhoods topic than questioning where they are or aren't going or being permitted in.

I rather figure it's a play on electric cars, and how evil they are... which some are so offended by???? And they're just building on it saying the "evil government" is trying to take away cars. 🙄

No one is trying to steal anybody's freedom, if you can call a car freedom. I did when I was 16 and I wanted to get away from the house, but I don't think that counts?

I have to wonder if they can't see beyond the nose on their face. Don't they want to leave a beautiful and usable planet for their children and grandchildren?

I remember discussions here about retirement and many people saying they’d want to move to a “walkable town”. That’s what this is. It is not about keeping people within a limit of 15 minutes from their homes. Sheesh, I can’t even with some people and their irrational fears that there is something nefarious about everything.

I would hate living away from people, and others want their own wide open spaces. When I take a trip to “the country”, I feel like it’s a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Others can feel that way about a city or a town, too. To each their own and live and let live!

People who buy into conspiracy theories have never worked in a sizable organization. Silly ideas that like don't appeal to me in the least; I'd block those FB feeds at first sight.

I'm one of those people kitchen... and I already addressed it upthread. I'd still love to be close to all I want, and, with how the world is changing, I can do that or not. See? We are free to do live how we want. With or without a car.

I don't know anything about 15-minute cities, but I know I wouldn't want to be stuck in a city, large or small.

rob, since you brought up the subject of EVs, perhaps you would like to learn a little about how bad they are, and this is just about the batteries. I won't even mention how much natural resources are used in the production of one vehicle.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods/supply-chains/lithium-ion-batteries

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/green-battery-revolution-powering-social-and-environmental-risks

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/the-dangers-of-cobalt-mining-in-the-congo/

Nobody is going to be 'stuck in a city'.

Nobody is going to be 'stuck in a city'.

Indeed. In fact, in a city there are multiple transportation options, whereas in a more rural area if you don't have a car, you're the one who's stuck.

Chicago was cited, evidently for having extensive public transportation. Currently, some of that transportation is extremely unsafe. Riders are getting robbed, and even murdered, on the 'L', and not only in poorer neighborhoods. In a recent letter to the editor, a man said he would love to use public transportation, but he drives (at much greater expense) only because he's not safe using the bus or elevated systems. Another person wrote to decry the expansion of the PACE bus system -- when busses have never operated at more than about 10% capacity.

DGS has participated in several Planned City competitions while in HS. This "15-Minute" thing was often presented as ideal for many reasons -- including the formation of neighborhoods where people felt a part a community.

OTOH, when DS was a child we lived in an affluent suburban area with five separate public school districts. Heaven help us if any of those districts should seek to combine! The parents in each district were *certain* that theirs was the superior district. Never mind that they all fed into a single highly rated HS, where the teachers and administration found NO MEASUREABLE DIFFERENCE in preparedness among students coming from the feeder schools. There were also several private grammar schools, where you could pay tens of thousands of dollars annually to end up with the same high level of education. The HS did find a higher level of preparedness in students whose parents not only had high expectations, but actively monitored and participated in their children's education.

" Stepping on America's love for cars is a bridge too far, I guess. "

What a hypocritical thing for a Tesla owning urban dweller to say. Are you suggesting that affinity for cars changes at the US-Canada border? That's absurd.

I don't own an electric car, and I already know about the downsides (gas powered also have downsides), I'm only speaking of those who think they're being pressed into owning them. Not backing or dissing the cars. I'm a neutral there. Just take a bike. Walk. Use a bus or train, where there's a consolidation of usage. Consolidate your own personal trips. But I'm not saying one must own an electric car

This metropolitan area is over 300 square miles. It is also interesting, to me, that many of the neighborhoods were at one time small towns often formed before incorporation so they just merged with houses being built around them into the various larger towns and cities. I just looked and several sites mentioned that a 15 minute walk was 2,000 steps for the average person. That is less than a mile with my short steps. The population density to provide all of the shops that people need within that area much less want will be tremendous.

" Are you suggesting that affinity for cars changes at the US-Canada border? That's absurd. "

Yes, I am, and it's a fact that's been true for at least 75 years, though it has waxed and waned and shifted a little over time. It has nothing to do with gas vs. electric, either (and I am no longer an urban dweller, by the way). It's one of those cultural differences that do take place at the US-Canada border.

Baloney.

Part of my being unable to visualize this is having seen the tenements of old. Started out as model places to live attracting people who could afford new built. Once the buildings started to age those moved out. Stacking people on top of each other where it is necessary can be good but it comes with many downsides including the preying on other residents.

@maifleur - not all cities have tenements. And not all high-density housing results in residents preying on each other: think of older apartment buildings in some of the big European cities, or the terrace houses (row houses) in Sydney, which are actually very desirable places to live. Or the kind of housing in a planned city like Canberra, which I described below. No tenements at all there.

Slums come from recession. Not reduction of car use.

"Are you suggesting that affinity for cars changes at the US-Canada border? That's absurd. "

Actually, it's not absurd at all. Do a little research. You'll find some substantial differences between the two countries when it comes to car ownership levels and the types of cars being bought. Canadians have a high level of car ownership, but it's well below the US level, and Canadians are far more likely than Americans to buy compact and subcompact as opposed to mid-sized or luxury vehicles.

jmm1837, that's fascinating about Canberra -- I never heard it was a planned city and TBH couldn't have named it as Australia's capital. Maybe one of these days DH and I will resume planning for a big trip to that part of the world. (Hope this doesn't mean we'll get another pandemic throwing everyone's plans in the dumpster again...)

" Actually, it's not absurd at all. Do a little research. "

She doesn't do any research - she thinks she knows everything based on just her own personal experience. Facts be damned.

Canberra is a beautifully designed city. And it had drama even before the Griffins proposal won. Even more after they won. I think it's a bit of a shame their original plans were not able to be carried out. In some ways, politics, money, and drama hasn't changed much since that saga. I'm kind of into some of the Praire School histories. I think the Griffins is a rather good one, even though they aren't as well known as FLW.

beesneeds - quite a bit of what the Griffins proposed was in fact implemented. The basic layout of the city is still true to their ideals. The pettifogging politics meant some of the buildings he designed were never built but the city development has followed his basic precepts.

I would love to live in a little city like that, especially as I get older.

I'm a NYC gal. Grew up in Queens, a borough of NYC and we never had a car. Took a bus to the subway to go into the City. Took City buses to areas outside walking areas. We had grocery stores, small bakeries, butchers, fish stores, Italian meat/cheese shops, etc. all within walking distance.

Took a bus and train to the City for work. Wonderful way to live.

Moved to Manhattan when I got married. Took a City bus to my work, subway to go downtown/crosstown.

My husband had a car which we kept garaged. Used to visit family living outside the City. Once a month was a lot.

NYC is full of parks, beautiful green spaces.

Now I live in Florida and have to drive everywhere. Nothing is walk-able.

Aging here means no walking, stairs or hills. Not healthy at all. Especially stairs.

You really don't know your neighbors or neighborhood. Very isolating and lonely compared to living in NY.

I love the idea of 15 minute Cities.

Jane

So many existing cities with good public transport are already "15-min". My MIL was blind and hard of hearing and managed to live on her own in NYC after FIL passed as she was able to walk...she had the grocery store on one corner, several restaurants where she would get her dinners to go, the bank on another corner, the post office around the block. She could take buses or cabs to get to further locations and did very well for herself. She knew all the shopkeepers and they knew her and would help her with making change, picking out grocery items, etc. None of that would've been possible for her in the burbs.

But what I find interesting is the term "city" that may be part of the objection. In a way, 15 min areas are being developed here around dying malls. The mall owners, realizing the death of retail due to e-tail are now building apartments and condos on mall properties and the malls are being converted to more than just retail to include other things such as restaurants, medical offices, grocery stores and fitness centers...the idea being that people who live close to the mall will walk there and find all the services they need on a regular basis....better access to services for them...more customers for the mall....a win-win.

I think most Europeans would, like annie d and jane_ny, understand the advantages of living in a big city with everything available close at hand. I'd describe London as a 15 minute city in a lot of ways - a collection of villages linked by a good subway system. New York, from my limited experience, has the same advantages. Rome, at least within the city walls, is another example. The thing is, 15 minute cities make for easy daily living, but no one is keeping people from heading off on a weekend to Devon or Vermont or Florence. The whole conspiracy theory is run by people who haven't seen/don't understand how the 15 minute concept is already playing out in real life.

I personally have had my fill of big cities, 15 minute or otherwise, but a 15 minute town is working very well for us.

Actually I think the CT is run by people who are looking for ways to divide the country even further whether fact based or not.

jmm I would suggest that not seeing rundown apartment buildings in your area is really nice but it is not that way in many cities. You may be thinking of apartment buildings where people string wash lines between buildings but I am think of apartments where the landlords do nothing. Once too bad the management company can apply for loans and grants to fix the buildings up. Even someone who used to be head of the US used this method.