Tell them to eat their time limit, any custom window is three months out, some brands are 26 weeks out! Have you looked at aluminum clad wood? The performance you want with a wood interior.

Please tell me about aluminum clad wood. I don’t know anything about the product (or any other products, for that matter). Is there a preferred brand I should look into?

The frames of these new vinyl windows feel like what I would imagine aluminum would feel like. These feel like really thin, flimsy metal, and each frame/sill has some give when you touch it. It doesn’t feel solid or even firm. Is aluminum better than that?

You are right about the time limit. I pointed out to them that it took almost a year to get these windows made and installed! But I want to get started asap. I don’t want them to hassle me, and I want to get an order placed.

Thank you for helping me! 🙂

Tell us about the big box store issues. I think more folks need to hear about that as they seem to think that is an alternative for window and door installations.

And why do you think it was the product that was the issue? Obviously you saw and picked out the product so I am wondering what the issues were such that they decided to refund the project. Hardly seems like it would have been product issues in that case.

What region of the country is the home located in and what actual vinyl product did you use? Vinyl does quite fine well South of the Mason Dixon line.

"Tell them to eat their time limit"...? So the big box store is offering a full refund on the customer selected product that was installed and they should "eat their time limit'? I don't want to call it looking a gift horse in the mouth, but buying the product back, if this is entirely about a lack of satisfaction with the "feel" of the customer selected product vs. some sort of failure to deliver on their part...is totally going above and beyond. They don't have to do anything REMOTELY approaching that if the customer issue is about the feel of a product that they signed off on.

Windows on Washington Ltd
I will try to answer your questions. This is going to be a long explanation.

Area: Deep South
Product line: Simonton.

None of this is about the weird feel of the product. I was disappointed about that, but I only mentioned it here in reference to the recommendation of aluminum. I don’t know anything about aluminum and wondered if aluminum would present the same way.

I was also disappointed that there are slight gaps at the frame corners. I was also disappointed when told that, while the vinyl will stay beautiful, the sealant — which is very visible — will stain with pollen, etc. I did not complain about any of that. The windows looked beautiful from afar and that would have been good enough for me.

I bought these for a home I own where an elderly family member lives. It is in a different Deep South state. Before making the sales appt., I had gone in person to a store in my state to ask about all this. I was told that they carry Andersen and American Craftsman, and I was shown samples of each. The store is a national chain, so I assumed the same of all. When the salesman came out, after the full pitch, he told me that in this area Simonton is the ONLY option. I had never heard of this line. I neither saw it, other than photos, but believed everything he said. It turns out nothing was true, at least not of the ones I received. (I do believe that the salesman believed what he told me. I don’t think I was intentionally deceived.)

I was told the windows would be installed in 4 months max; it took nearly 11. The store had not ordered half by mistake and we had to wait on them. Several windows didn’t fit and had to be reordered; a few were defective and were reordered. So, these were installed in winter instead of summer.

I couldn’t be there for the final installation. The store knew my situation, and that I had to travel every time an installer came out. I couldn’t during that last time, so they didn’t require me to be there. When the first two windows had been installed, one of the lock things glided beautifully. One was more difficult but the installer did something to make it easier. But at my next visit after the final installation, I discovered that most of the locks are too tight for me to operate without struggling, and this is much harder for my relative. Cold air was pouring through from around the frames of some windows. Turns out that they don’t fit and although they looked closed from inside, they actually were open - and had been for more than two months. Some time earlier, a guest opened a window on a warm-ish day, but then it wouldn’t close. She had to fight it to close the last several inches, pulling with her fingernails.

I called the installer out to work on these problems. He said, “They really should explain that older people won’t be able to easily open or close these…” He said they didn’t have a key (Allen key?) to adjust the locks when they were installed, but now he had one. And although he said at the end that he had fixed all of them, I found them no easier to work with. He said they would ease up with time. (I later read they would be damaged if operated when too tight.)

I had gone around the outside before he arrived and found almost all the weather stripping had warped beyond belief. Some had warped to the point that they were visible from a distance. He said that will happen when the weather is very hot, very cold, or during the changing of seasons. He said the windows also will be difficult to operate because vinyl casement windows are too heavy for the hinges or material or something. They also will become crooked and sag as the house settles. He seemed to be saying this was why we were having trouble. Please note that most had only been in for two months.

At the end of the visit, he said he had adjusted the ones that had been slightly open, and they were fully closed. The next morning, they wouldn’t open. By the afternoon, they opened (with difficulty); did one day’s sun make that much of a difference? Hours later, they wouldn’t close the last several inches. A different tech had to come out to close them. He confirmed that this line is very hard to open and close.

I know I’m leaving things out of this history, but I can’t even remember all the problems. All of the product issues were the opposite of what the salesman had sold us on. We had involved a supervisor months earlier, who was helpful and monitored these issues as the project progressed. I called after all this and said I had had enough. The supervisor said to go ahead and order new windows from whomever, and they will take away the old ones as new ones go in. We are supposed to get a full refund when the new project completes. They want it done within six months, which is likely impossible. I pointed out that they had taken much longer than that themselves. So, I am supposed to inform them of every new step, but they want it done as soon as possible. On that, we agree.

What products and brands would you recommend?

The house is in central Georgia. There are so many window companies, and I just don’t have a clue as to which one to call or which products to ask about. I don’t want to again make the mistake of being too trusting and ill-prepared. I really do need advice about replacing these casement windows.

If aluminum, which brand?
If vinyl, is there a superior brand that will perform much better than these?
Is Fibrex worth the money?
Is there another option?

Fibrex is vinyl, (60% by constitution), so if you are thinking it is going to be wood "feeling" organic, keep that in mind.

Sounds like they bumbled a bunch of stuff.

I would look at Marvin Elevates before I did Fibrex.

@rojonogo , do you have any pictures of the issues? I ask for two reasons:

1) I'm curious to see the workmanship

2) I'm not entirely certain about some of the things that you are unhappy with, getting a better understanding of that via some pictures would allow accurate recommendations to be made. The last thing that you want is to get new windows that have the same issue that you didn't like about the first batch.

Overall, a good quality vinyl window will perform just fine in your area, although quality is key. Wood clad, fiberglass, and other composites are fine as well, the best fit will be deterimined by your goals and expectations. I'm not the biggest fan of Simonton, but its not a poor window, it really shouldnt have all of the issues that you've experienced if properly installed.

Lastly, I'd agree with WoW, it is fortunate that the compamy involved is willing to essentially "buy back" that job, even if they have a fair share of mistakes and delays. Telling them to "eat their time limit" may very well result in rescission of that offer, so I'd continue to work with them in good faith. I suspect that as long as you have new product selected and ordered within a reasonable time frame that they'll be undersatnding when it comes to the actual installation of the new windows. They won't be reinstalling those in someone else's house, so there's no real urgency other than them wanting to get this project closed out.

I will try to post some photos. I made some videos of the difficulty with the locks, but I don’t know if they will load.

These are shots of one of the windows that my sister thought was closed but was open all winter. This actually might be two of them. I can’t tell if both these photos are of the same window or not.

The windows that were open are the ones the installer came back and adjusted closed, and then they wouldn’t open, and later after they did open, they wouldn’t close again, and he had to send someone back out to do it.

Now I can’t figure out how to post more than these two. I didn’t permit HOUZZ to access my whole camera roll, and now it won’t offer me more than these two.

Reveals look okay from these pictures. Might be something in the mechanism from improper operation or factory defect.

+1. Hard to say exactly what is going on there. Vinyl casements will start to sag a little bit if left open for a prolonged period (ie weeks or months), however there is a "memory" effect in the vinyl where closing and latching them for a bit restores the proper alignment. There are also built in adjusters on modern casements (of any material) to correct that sagging. When a wood casement sags there is no "self correction", it generally needs to be adjusted.

Its possible that the techinician didn't get the adjustments dialed in all the way, or that they are poorly installed (out of square) causing the issues. A product defect of some sort is certainly possible as well, although that would generally affect a unit or two as opposed to an entire order of windows.

There is nothing particularly alarming in the pics shown, is there something besides the operation issues that you've had a problem with? You mentioned something about the sealant getting dirty, that is something that would be a concern with any window and has more to do with the type of sealant chosen than the window material.

Lastly, it is odd that the technician would state that casements are a bad choice for elderly residents, they are just about the easiest type of window to operate.

I was surprised at that comment, too, about them being hard for elderly people to operate. He is right in the case of these windows, though. I have to fight with most of them. My relative has to lie on the floor to operate some of them.

I made videos of each window, unlocking and opening and closing each one. Some worked better than others, but in most of those videos, I was audibly grunting while working the locks. And they made a terrible grinding sound, too. What is your opinion of the locks being too tight and grinding? Do they loosen up with time, as the guy said? I don’t understand why adjusting with the Allen key didn’t make a difference. And I don’t understand why so many would be difficult, and some extremely difficult, while the first one installed worked beautifully. The lock handle just glided up and down.

Windows on Washington, what is meant by “reveals look okay.” Is that a particular part you are looking at?

This is one of the windows that cold air was pouring through.

I wish I hadn’t mucked up the photo uploading process. 😕

I will research the brand recommendations on this thread. I appreciate them!

What do you think of Pella aluminum clad?

I’m thinking of cancelling my appt with Andersen. That may be more upscale than we need, I think, given the other suggestions made here.

I am starting to wonder if my problems were due more to the installation rather than the product. I had thought that a few adjustments could fix everything. But when I called for the installers (who also maintain/repair the windows) to make those adjustments, I was told each concern was “just the way they are,” and that it wasn’t a great product. Maybe it was a CYA explanation. The supervisor was there, though, and she didn’t argue any of the points. I had the impression they’d had a lot of complaints about this line of windows. Then again, in this area, they only use this one company to install them. Hard to say where the problem actually lies.

There’s another thing that I hope to avoid in the new windows. That’s the corners of the frame not meeting tightly at the corners as wood does. The upper corners of some windows don’t meet tightly, and I was concerned that moisture could get in and cause rot. Again, I was told “that’s just the way they are.” But on other windows, the top piece of framing wasn’t cut to meet angled cut on the vertical side; rather, it was folded over it, sort of the way you wrap a present. As the two methods are different, I don’t know which actually is “the way they are.”

Would I have the same issue with any of these recommended products?

" What do you think of Pella aluminum clad? "

Worse than the old windows you threw out and much worse than the current windows, quite honestly.

I haven't seen any videos, but to answer your question, YES, all of them should operate smoothly. I explained the sagging part above, however other than some temporary difficulty operating a unit that has been open for a prolonged period of time, there should be no "grinding" or excessive force needed for operation. Even garbage windows should operate problem free when they are new, this sounds to me like poor installation. Did you ever attempt to get a rep from the manufacturer out to take a look?

I'd agree with MWM about Pella. That is a 10 year window. We replace MANY of them that are 10-15 years old.

As far as the "corners not meeting tightly", do you have a picture of that concern? Vinyl windows have welded corners so the can't be any tighter in that regard. If you mean the gap between the sash panel and frame, that does have a little bit larger gap on a vinyl unit to expand and contract seasonally, however the weatherstripping and overall design take that into account so as not to allow air or water infiltration.

Ah! Today the app allowed me to select a few more photos. These are a few examples of how the top piece of the frame meets and/or overlaps the side piece. This did not at all factor in to why I am replacing the windows, but I would like to do better on the replacements. This is why I am confused over this being “just the way it is:” They are done different ways. On a very few windows, the meeting point actually makes a tight connection. On many there is a gap, and a good number overlap the side piece rather than meet it. I don’t know how it is supposed to be. I would like the new ones to meet tightly as a wood frame would.

The videos I referred to are not posted here. I don’t think I can upload any.

Yikes, I am shocked to hear that about Pella aluminum. We were told this week that they are great. We were thinking that’s the way to go. 😳 Thank you folks for the warning!

Oh gosh. There’s something I didn’t notice until I posted this just now. I don’t know the terms for these things, but the vertical pieces have beautiful, sort-of beveled edges. There’s the flat base and two narrow tiers building up and out to the outside edge. On the windows where the top and side pieces meet to form the corner, the top piece matches the beveled side piece. But on the ones where the top piece overlaps the side piece at the corner, the front surface is flat. No matching beveled edges. That can’t be right. This comment refers to the photos I already posted.

If this next one uploads, tell me if the frame is closed at all in the upper left corner. I never noticed this until now, either. It looks to me like the top piece didn’t connect to the frame as expected. The top piece overshot the left side piece, and it looks like a part of the construction at the top is not covered.

Augh. It won’t let me select more photos. I don’t know what made the difference tonight that let a few more upload.

Oh gosh. There’s something I didn’t notice until I posted this just now. I don’t know the terms for these things, but the vertical pieces have beautiful, sort-of beveled edges. There’s the flat base and two narrow tiers building up and out to the outside edge. On the windows where the top and side pieces meet to form the corner, the top piece matches the beveled side piece. But on the ones where the top piece overlaps the side piece at the corner, the front surface is flat. No matching beveled edges. That can’t be right. This comment refers to the photos I already posted.

If this next one uploads, tell me if the frame is closed at all in the upper left corner. I never noticed this until now, either. It looks to me like the top piece didn’t connect to the frame as expected. The top piece overshot the left side piece, and it looks like a part of the construction at the top is not covered.

Augh. It won’t let me select more photos. I don’t know what made the difference tonight that let a few more upload.

Sorry about that duplicate post.

Homesealed Exteriors, it never occurred to me
to get a rep from the manufacturer out to take a look. That sounds like a good idea. It was the installers who said all the fault lies with the product. If the problem might be the installers, maybe the supervisor and the manufacturer would like to take a look.

From your last photo it looks like the issue is with the trim and not the window frame.

Who do you plan on using to install the replacement windows? When you mention Andersen I assume that you are talking about a Renewal by Andersen franchise?

And where are you hearing all these great things about Fibrex and Pella??? (And all these bad things about vinyl?)

That is the brickmold casing miters not done properly and since these are vinyl that is on the installer/carpenter not the window manufacturer at all.

+1. The areas circled in Yellow are not a window component. They are a trim detail for the exterior and would have ZERO to do with the operation of the window.

Absolutely. I know I have made too many posts to wade through, but I was saying these design flaws are things I want to avoid in a new window. This had nothing to do with the issues that made me want to replace them.

Dennisgli, the installer is the one that told me all the bad things about vinyl. Everything that was wrong about operation, the seals, and the aesthetics, the installer blamed on vinyl in general and this product line specifically. After he said this, I found internet articles that seemed to bear it out — but I guess you can find any opinion on the internet.

Since he said so many bad things about vinyl, I thought I for sure need not replace these with more vinyl! This is why I was asking about aluminum and Fibrex — that’s pretty much all I could find that isn’t vinyl.

From these comments, I’m beginning to suspect that they just did a bad job installing and blamed it on the product instead of admitting it. I am perplexed. I think I may need to call the store and ask them to see if a different installer could fix the issues, maybe even reinstall the ones that are worst. And if a manufacturer’s rep could come out, maybe they could adjust the stubborn locks.

Those of you who know about how the locks are supposed to operate: Is this a manufacturing defect or is it something that can be fixed?

To recap: At first, I intended to call them only about the locks being too tight, and then I discovered that several windows would not close. When the installer came out, he said that this is just what vinyl is like — there will always be trouble with the seals and resulting drafts, and elderly people such as myself will never be able to operate them easily. When we had to call them back the next day to re-close more windows, that’s when the store supervisor agreed to replace them. It’s not that I am trying to be difficult. Replacing that many windows after hassling with them for a year is not a process I want to repeat.

I appreciate the advice here. If the installers steered me wrong about vinyl and misled about the nature of the problems, I am open to suggestions other than replacement.

I hate to think this of the installers, though. Except for the one who came out recently (who owns their company), I really, really liked the installers. Then again, they are the ones who didn’t miter (?) some of these correctly and then said that’s how they are supposed to look. 😕

Millworkman, are you saying that the vinyl-wrapped (?) framing is not part of the Simonton product? Are these materials provided by the installer? It has nothing to do with what was shipped from the factory?

Again, the frames aren’t part of the reason the windows are being replaced. But if I am getting new windows, I want them to look better than these do.

If the frames are 100% on the installers and not the product line, then I believe I’ve put too much stock in what they have been telling me.

Certainly appears to be an aftermarket casing that the installer installed (poorly I might add). If it were vinyl wrapped and factory applied you would never seen open crappy miters like that.

" If the frames are 100% on the installers "

Again that is brickmold casing and nothing to do with a window frame.

" Then I believe I’ve put too much stock in what they have been telling me. "

One of the truest statements you made in this entire post. I am shocked that anyone is offering to replace your windows. Simonton would send someone to your house for a week to tune and adjust windows before that would replace a house full of windows. This is all about your installers lack of ability. Just my opinion.

Millworkman, I appreciate your advice. I think maybe with the big box store, the employees aren’t actually knowledgeable about what they sell. I believed their salesman’s presentation, and I believe he believed it of the product himself. The supervisors managed the process — getting the windows measured, ordered (although there were big problems there, too), delivered, and installers hired. The on-site supervisor didn’t refute any of the things the installers told us about the product, so I believed she knew they sold us a bad product. That she and the sales manager so readily offered to refund them seemed to bear that out. Maybe she doesn’t know any more about the product than I do. Maybe she believed the installers, too. The local store seems to work exclusively with these installers.

Millworkman, the store has not involved Simonton in this part of the issue, at least not to my knowledge. I think the store just plans to eat it. She told me she had to speak to her sales manager, then called back within an hour with the offer. It all suggested to me that they knew it was inferior.

I will contact her and discuss having a manufacturer’s rep come out to inspect.

I see that there are a lot of poor reviews of Simonton windows on the Home Depot site - though some of them look like installation problems.

@millworkman - I agree with your assessment but in this case but want to add - that sometimes customers "fire" their contractor and sometimes contractors "fire" their customers. Here I'm feeling more and more that the contractor is bluffing that the poster won't actually go forward and replace the windows in the allotted time - and that they will just give up and live with the poor job/product.

@rojonogo - You never answered my question about who you plan on using to install the replacement windows. At this point I would stop talking to/believing what you are being told by the "store". And call Simonton directly and ask them for a recommendation for who you can hire to assess and fix the problems that you are having.

Just my two cents!

" I think maybe with the big box store, the employees aren’t actually knowledgeable about what they sell. "

This just replaced your other statement for the truest statement you have made on this thread. And many times the installers know even less, as this appears to be. You need someone who knows what the hell they are looking at to inspect these windows. Calling Simonton direct will get you nowhere unfortunately as they will push you back to the place you purchased the windows. You need to go up the ladder at the box store to get Simonton out to the site. Did the store actually put in wirting that they will replace the windows? I did not read back or recall or are they refunding your money and you get to go elsewhere? Simonton, makes millions of windows (decent not terrible windows at that) and I doubt very much as I have already stated that there is anything "defective" on these windows and the defect was the installer.

I completely agree with the thought that what you have here are installation issues, and installers trying to blame the product for their own workmanship deficiencies.

As MWM and others have confirmed, the "mitered corner" issue is installer related (aluminum capping- poorly done), that is not part of the window itself.

I believe that if you have someone out to properly service these windows (its possible that reinstallation could be needed), that they will perform the way that you expect. At minimum I'd look for the exterior trim to be removed, adjustments made as needed to correct the function, and new exterior capping completed.

A hard truth here is that despite the common perception that a box store would be a "safe" choice to get a good installation, they are really the opposite in my experience. Their pay scale is lower than most other window companies which leads to a revolving door of subs that typically can't cut it at a better paying company. Its rare to find installers that do great work that don't know their worth and would settle for lower pay.

Simonton isn't a "new" company. If they didn't know how to make the suite of standard American operating windows, they wouldn't be one of the top 10 window manufacturers in the country.

This appears to be more likely a installer quality issue as has been referenced by several of the pros above.