I don't know how to edit my post.... It goes outside from May till October. But didn't set any fruit, not send.

I had assumed you meant May. I don't know what to do. I don't grow Meyers because they ar so hard to grow.

Perhaps you don't know that citrus are heavy feeders; while in a pot they need to be fed citrus food at least 5 times during the year. ( Ones in the ground only 3 times but at a greater rate.) Perhaps your's needs more food.

I have a couple of questions: what kind of pot are you using? Is that one that has drainage on the bottom or a drainage free planter? You could have an issue where the bottom of the pot is staying too wet while the top is drying out. That will also trap fertilizer salts near the base of the plant, which can give your plant some salt burn. You mention using osmocote, which I believe is a time release synthetic fertilizer. Especially if you're working with synthetics you definitely want to pay attention to the recommendations on times to fertilize and quantities as if you don't use enough or fertilize often enough your tree won't have the nutrients it needs to survive. I believe osmocote is a 6 month fertilizer. What direction does your window face? And are you using any supplemental lighting? The tree could also be getting too little light during the time it is indoors to set fruit. I hope some of this helps.

  Donna Roseink I used to live in northwestern  Ohio  it looks pretty scrawny   for being out  that long   for 5to ten years   probably  not getting enough nutrition to produce fruit but baarly enough to grow  and plant matence   in your case   u might want to try  a composted poultry manure product or another composted for manure it is strong enough   it is slow released  and maybe another dose in the fall 

Howard

  that will last only a month at a time   but in this  case  the  formula of oscmote apparently not strong enough   and also pull it up an check the roots  if too wet find another pot or  change your watering schedule

@Donna R Are you still around, or have you moved on?

Al

Hi All, I am still around. The meyer lemon is planted in a resin plastic pot with a drainage hole in the bottom. It is planted in a citrus mix of soil, if I remember correctly. I am not sure what a composted chicken manure product is, or where to buy it. I have always been afraid of putting too much fertilizer on it, for fear of killing it. I also have a fear of overwatering, becuase that seems like what most people do wrong when trying to take care of them. I think it is something nutrition related. No one has commented on the leaves that have some mottling of yellow and green. I have a feeling that means something. I also have leaf drop... not bad, but I put a little water on it a few days ago and now there are 7 leaves on the floor. It is maddening when you try to look up care on a specific plant and it says you can under water and also over water. If someone who knows citrus can zoom in on the leaves, this may tell us something. Thanks to all of you.

That's exactly what we are telling you; the leaves are saying "FEED ME !"

You can buy citrus food at the big box stores, nuseries, even online. My favorite comes from Texas. You don't need manure of any sort, especially one you bring indoors. I like the liquid ones that you add a given amount to water, then water the tree. You almost can't give a citrus too much food. If you were to give a weak solution everytime you watered you'd be doing good.

Your leaves definitely show a nutrient deficiency, likely nitrogen deficiency too. I would recommend against using something like chicken manure and osmocote. When it comes to growing plants it is a good rule of thumb not to mix methods. Chicken manure would be what I would consider an "organic" meaning non synthetic fertilizer option. When it comes to using organic fertilizers in containers you have to treat the soil as an organism just like the tree. I could go into a lot of information about mycorrhizae and bacterial populations but needless to say if your tree lacks those things that come with an organic soil you won't get very far with organic fertilizers. More than that if the plant is grown in sterilized soil with inorganic fertilizers it's already primed for that, so best to stick with it. I would pay attention to the fertilizer amounts recommended on your osmocote and the recommended fertilizer schedule. Your other issue is watering. How do you water? Do you take it to a sink and water ir until it is soaked, let it drain, and then put it back? Or do you water it in place with a watering can? If you're not watering deeply you can see a lot of issues crop up. Improper watering methods can cause all kinds of issues. Your final factor is light, you want to make sure that the tree has plenty of light, if the window doesn't get enough you may want a cheap LED grow light to supplement. I guess final thoughts: I would make sure the tree isn't too close to a vent getting dried out with the heating, or getting too cold at the window. Some houses can have more than a 10 degree difference between the inside of the house where the thermostat is and the window. I hope some of this helps.

@Donna Roesink The first thing I noticed about your tree is, nearly all the growth is located at the ends of the branches in the immediate vicinity of the apices. The branch apex (plural apices) is where primary/ extension growth occurs. The poodle or pompom look is a signature of a badly rootbound plant, which makes me ask if when you 'repotted' the plant, you actually repotted it, or, did you simply pot up? Potting up consists of basically lifting the plant from it's current pot and slipping the root/soil mass into a slightly larger pot and filling in with a bit of fresh soil at the bottom and around the sides and calling it good. Sometimes growers will fuss a little with the roots around the outside of the root mass, but more often they just finish the chore with as little mess and greatest speed possible, though regular forum participants tend to have been more exposed to info re the effect tight roots have on vitality levels and make some sort of effort to do more than a quick up-pot.

A full repot consists of largely bare-rooting the plant, pruning problem roots out of the root mass, thinning considerably the large roots not attached to the base of the tree and which serve pretty much only as plumbing, and a change of grow medium. In a container, these thick/heavy roots mentioned are superfluous and are best removed to provide more room for the fine roots that do all the plant's heavy lifting. Very often, the plant can be returned to the same pot through several repotting sessions. Generally, when I root-prune a plant, I start with sawing off the bottom 1/3-1/2 of the root mass or more. You needn't be that aggressive, especially for the first few sessions.

Repotting has a strong rejuvenating effect on plants because the most juvenile and most naturally vigorous tissues are located in the root to shoot transition zone. Cutting the plant back (roots or shoots) closer to that zone stimulates strong juvenile growth. It's not an accident that the root word from which we get rejuvenation pruning is 'juvenile'.

Potting up, ensures that the limitations associated with root congestion, and they can be very severe, remain a limiting factor for as long as it takes to get a set of human hands into the roots to correct the congestion; whereas, a full repot with root pruning relieves ALL limitations associated with root congestion. The normal interval between repots is 1-3 years for young trees, say younger than 20 years old, and less often for older trees because growth naturally slows with age. Feel free to ask any questions you might have. I have personally repotted more than 5,000 trees, and that would be trees in quart size pots to trees that take 2 men to just tip the pot on its side.

Now, I'm not discounting the idea it may well be your plant needs you to put in place a regular nutritional supplementation program. That is an essential part of the care regimen for every containerized plant. We can't rely on the grow medium to feed the plant, it's the growers responsibility.

That said, plants are governed by something called Liebig's Law of the Minimum, which states there are several factors that affect plant growth and yield; they are: air, water, light, temperature, soil/media, nutrients. The law goes on to state the most deficient factor is what limits plant growth and increasing the supply of non-limiting factors will not increase plant growth. Only by increasing most deficient factor will the plant growth increase. There is also an optimum combination of the factors and increasing them, individually or in various combinations, can lead to toxicity for the plant.

Root health and normal root function are essential prerequisite to a healthy plant. Root congestion, per the law, cannot be overcome by increasing nutritional levels. IF the factor most deficient is a nutritional deficiency, fertilizing fixes it, but only within the limits imposed by root congestion.

I would lift the tree from the pot and inspect the roots. If the root/soil mass is a tight, cohesive unit, there's an issue that needs addressing; and, even if your nutrition levels were the most limiting factor and you made the nutritional resources perfect, root congestion or some other equally odious factor would immediately take the place of nutrition as the most limiting factor. So go ahead and fertilize. It might make a difference, but it might not. As I noted, root congestion can rob a plant of nearly all of it's potential in terms of growth rate/ vitality (health)/ yields where applicable/ eye appeal, and no amount of fertilizer can fix that.

Al

That looks like a LOW-E sliding glass door. They block all the infrared light and 50% of normal light. Plants in LOW-E windows need extra light from lamps to do well

Citrus requires energy in chemical form so they can grow and carry out basic life functions. They produce, store, and burn carbohydrates in the form of sugar to provide themselves with energy. Carbohydrates are formed by photosynthetic activity. The carbohydrates are stored in the leaf and bark. When you grow indoors under less-than-ideal conditions there is a transient reduction in leaf carbohydrate levels. Citrus leaves can last anywhere from a few months to several years, depending on various factors such as the age of the tree, growing conditions, and the health of the plant. A lack of stored carbohydrates will prevent the fruit from developing. A lot of problems indoors show up around the 3-month mark. All things considered, you have done a great job.

Trees are photoautotrophs so their most important energy source is electromagnetic and without mass, unlike carbohydrates. Excepting energy stored in seeds, all trees first require energy in the form of photons/ light quantum, which are tiny bundles of electromagnetic energy (which emanate from light sources, like our sun) the plant uses to oxidize water (H2O) which leaves oxygen gas (O2), hydrogen (H+), most of which combine with carbon dioxide (CO2) to create the hydrocarbon chains that make up organic molecules. Glucose is the direct result of photosynthesis, but there is very little free glucose in plants because glucose molecules link to form starch or the sugar 'sucrose', all of which fall under the umbrella of 'carbohydrates'. There are many byproducts of photosynthesis, created by the forming of more complex molecules which utilize nutrients to form the varied cells and tissues that make up the plant and provide for regulation of systems and processes.

Carbohydrates can be stored in cambial tissues, but are largely stored in roots, and I don't think it's necessarily a lack of stored carbohydrates that limit fruit production so much as it is a dearth of current production of photosynthate that causes the plant to rely on stored reserves. Perhaps that's nothing more than viewing the same subject from a different perspective. What came first, the chicken or the egg? The egg, of course.

There is much more to be understood beyond the process of photosynthesis and where a plant's energy comes from. For instance, a lack of aeration in the root zone disallows a sufficient amount of oxygen to oxidize (burn, if one prefers) the carbohydrates that provide the energy to drive water and nutrient uptake. Root congestion also limits the amount of soil capable of holding water/ nutrient resources as well. So it really doesn't much matter how much stored energy a plant might have if it hasn't the resources to ensure that energy is able to be harnessed for the good of the plant, which is why it's a good idea to keep perspectives as broad as possible when troubleshooting. Plants have "a specific pecking order" that makes the plant obligated to devote its energy to specific functions and growth types ahead of other functions. Surprisingly, production of defense chemicals is the weakest energy sink plants have, something it seems like Mother Nature might have arranged differently.

My impression is and I have already noted the plant needs nutritional supplementation, and it would certainly be happier with more light, but there is more going in with Donna's plant than too little light and the fact it needs to be fertilized.

Al

Citrus trees store carbohydrates in several different parts of the plant, including the leaves, stems, roots, and fruit.

During the process of photosynthesis, the leaves of citrus trees produce glucose, which is then converted into starch and stored in the chloroplasts of the leaf cells. This stored starch can be broken down into glucose and used as an energy source by the plant when needed.

The stems of citrus trees also contain carbohydrates, which are stored in the form of sucrose, a type of sugar. This sucrose is transported through the phloem to other parts of the plant, where it can be used for growth or energy.

The roots of citrus trees also store carbohydrates in the form of starch, which can be broken down into glucose and used as an energy source by the plant.

Finally, the fruit of citrus trees is a major carbohydrate storage organ. The fruit stores carbohydrates in the form of sugars, such as sucrose, glucose, and fructose. These sugars provide the energy needed for the fruit to grow and ripen and are also responsible for the sweet taste of citrus fruits.

https://agritechnovation.co.za/the-itesttm-carbohydrate-analysis-program-a-new-tool-for-citrus-growers/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423811001178

https://www.gardenista.com/posts/5-secrets-tips-grow-indoor-lemon-tree/

Lemon Lime Orange, good post. Short, to the point, with very useful information.

I can't see much to disagree with in what you most recently posited, mostly because it's very consistent with what I said, in my own words; but I would note that sugar/energy stored in fruit is not stored for the benefit of the plant.

The key point here is, while you did a good job of it and it's always a plus to understand how free electromagnetic energy + water + CO2 is turned into the plant's true food during the photosynthetic process, this thread centers on this plant's pathology, not on how photosynthesis works. It's sort of like a kid's kite won't fly so he takes it to dad/mom for help, and they start telling him/her how twine is made.

Al

When I was 9 years old I hooked up a tomato plant to 120 volts. The only think that came out of it was an evenly tanned hide.

I'd pay to see it.

Al

Me getting my hide tanned, or me hooking a plant to 120 volts to accelerate Photosynthesis

It'd be great if you had a video of you plugging in the power while your dad nailed your hide to the shed in the background.

@Donna R How's your plant doing? What steps have you taken?

Al

“Citrus (Citrus spp.) is the main fruit tree crop in the world and therefore has a tremendous economical, social and cultural impact in our society. In recent years, our knowledge on plant reproductive biology has increased considerably mostly because of the work developed in model plants. However, the information generated in these species cannot always be applied to citrus, predominantly because citrus is a perennial tree crop that exhibits a very peculiar and unusual reproductive biology. Regulation of fruit growth and development in citrus is an intricate phenomenon depending upon many internal and external factors that may operate both sequentially and simultaneously.”

Yes, citrus fruit can be both a source and a sink for carbohydrates in citrus trees. When the fruit is developing, it is a sink, meaning it is consuming carbohydrates from the rest of the tree to fuel its growth. However, as the fruit matures and ripens, it can also become a source of carbohydrates as it undergoes photosynthesis and produces sugars, which can be transported back to the rest of the tree for use as energy. So, the role of citrus fruit as a source or sink depends on the stage of growth and development of the fruit.

This is the crux of the matter for indoor citrus growers. You can’t pay Paul Sink by borrowing from Peter Source indefinitely growing under limited light indoors. Eventually sources need to be replensished outdoors under sun or indoors under grow light. No amount of aerating, root pruning, or fertilizer, or tinkering with watering can stave off the inevitible sink/source deficits from lack of light.

If you look up the acronym LCP, it will simplify what you're trying to explain. Light Compensation Point. Simply put, it is the point at which the plant creates exactly as much food during photosynthesis as it burns during the respiration phase. Plants cannot long grow or keep their systems orderly unless they create more energy than they burn; and, there are a number of factors other than light intensity or duration that limit a plant's ability to carry on photosynthesis. This fact is what allowed Alex Shigo PhD to note, "Plants that are not growing are dying."

With reference to, "No amount of aerating, root pruning, or fertilizer, or tinkering with watering can stave off the inevitible [sic] sink/source deficits from lack of light", no one said or suggested it would. In fact, I regularly use Liebig's Law of the Minimum to explain that very idea.

Liebig's Law: There are 6 factors that affect plant growth and vitality (health); they are: air, water, light, temperature, soil/media, nutrients. The law states that a plant's rate of growth, the size to which it grows, and its overall health depend on the amount of the scarcest of its essential cultural requirements available, meaning it's the most deficient of cultural factors which limits plant performance. It further states that increasing the supply of non-limiting factors will not increase plant growth rate, size, of vitality levels, and only by increasing most deficient factor will the plant performance improve. There is also an optimum combination of the factors and increasing them, individually or in various combinations, can lead to toxicity for the plant.

However, you are assuming that the source of the plant's decline is a light deficiency, which cannot fix the limitations associated with root congestion, poor oxygenation, inappropriate watering habits, nutrient deficiencies, diseases, insect herbivory, humidity, temperature, air pollution, or any of several other environmental/ cultural issues capable of causing stress.

Growing plants efficaciously requires a holistic view; and, while light is certainly one of the major players in how much of a plant's genetic potential can be realized, it's not the only player. Putting all of one's eggs in a single basket doesn't always go well and narrow focus more often goes wide of the mark. Whenever it isn't clear what exactly is causing the decline, it's best to assess all factors capable of causing the decline and make sure none are at or beyond the limits the plant is programmed to tolerate. If your low tire pressure light comes on in the car, do you check one tire or all of them?

No matter how wise either of us might think we are, neither of us is wise enough to look at an image of a plant like this one and say with any degree of certainty its only limitation, or, its most serious limitation, is a paucity of light. No wise person would ever make that claim.

Al

🤣 https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/extension-publications/2010/2010_Nov_supplemental_lighting.pdf

An entirely different topic that has nothing to do with the discussion - just changing the subject.

Al

Changing to subject or not, I found the article informative, and I'm grateful that

Lemon Lime orange published it.

Thanks to all of you who have tried to help. Some of the posts are too technical for me, and I think, for most people. they are. I watered the lemon pretty well and sat it outside about 5 days ago when it was warm, I had to bring it in a couple of days ago. The weather here in Ohio is in the 40s again. The tree is dropping leaves like crazy. I am going to repot it in the next few days to try to save it. I ususally go and buy the citrus/cactus/succulent mix available in big box stores. Should I be using something different? What fertilizer should I add to the soil, if any when I repot it? What should I be looking for on the roots, and should I do any root pruning? I am so confused with what to do, I am even considering trying a different pot. The pot that it is in, is a resin type plastic, with one hole in the middle of the bottom. As I said above, I am confused and about ready to give up.

To do the repot I would first recommend taking your tree out of the pot, removing all or mostly all of the soil that the tree has around its roots (it can be helpful to take out most of the soil and then soak in a bucket of water to remove anything hard and stuck), and then trim off any roots that have been circling or that have a thin root and then a big clump of roots. Also remove any mushy or dead roots about half an inch to an inch into the good living root. Make sure to sanitize your tools in rubbing alcohol by wiping with a rubbing alcohol soaked paper towel. You should have a nice spray of roots coming off the bottom of your trunk when you're done. Then repot it back into your existing pot (if you've removed enough root mass) or into one size larger. Beware overpotting as it can make it harder for you to know when to water. (How and when you water can make or break a tree). When you fill back in with soil use a good mix. Beware anything with moisture crystals as those can make watering difficult and often cause problems with your tree. You want a mix that has bark fines, pearlite, peat moss, and sand (if synthetic), or bark fines, recycled forest products, pumice, and sand (if you want to go organic). When you're done potting, soak the tree really well so that you see bubbles foaming up out of the soil, that's air bubbles coming out from repotting and settles the soil back around the roots. Let the tree drain, bring it in, and water as normal. As for mixes, you need to decide if you're growing organic or if you're growing synthetic. If organic you need an organic soil that has chicken manure, bat guano, and has been innoculated with the proper organisms and then need to fertilize with organic fertilizer, you also want pumice in your mix because it provides the organisms with a nice home. If synthetic you need to use synthetic soil and synthetic fertilizer only. The difference is that when you want to grow organic you want to treat the soil as an organism as well as your plant, that means nothing that's going to kill your plant's symbiotic organisms. These organisms break down organic fertilizers so that they are available to the plant. If you use synthetics, these organisms are not present and can't break down the organic fertilizers, so you need to stick to the synthetic fertilizers and the fertilizer schedule that goes with the one you choose. Don't mix and match or you could run the risk of salt buildups. I hope that makes sense and helps. As for your pot, if you're using resin or plastic you may want one with more holes in the bottom as citrus don't like to stay too wet.

If your pot has only one drainage hole in it then just drill some more in it.

Guys - it doesn't matter if there is 1 or 10 or 20 holes in the bottom of your pots. When the pot has just stopped draining (called 'at container capacity') after a thorough watering, the same amount of water will remain in the pot regardless of the number of holes in the pot bottom. Plants don't care if it takes the pot 1 minute or 10 to stop draining after a watering. BTW - from the plant's perspective, pots with gas permeable walls are among the best if not THE best. Pond baskets, colanders from the dollar store, low-fired clay (terra cotta), unfinished wood, and cloth (under the right conditions), are all excellent choices.

It is a disservice to tell a struggling grower that unless organic soil amendments are utilized as the source of nutrition, there will be no soil biota in the pot. Populations of the organisms that cleave (break) the hydrocarbon chains that make up organic soil amendments are typically boom/bust in a container, making organic sources of nutrition one of the least reliable, because there is no telling what will be available, or when.

"Mixing and matching" of organic and synthetic sources of nutrition is perfectly fine and safe if one understands the the potential for issues related to temperature and excessive water retention, both of which have greater effect on plantings that derive nutrients from organic sources. In fact, it's impossible not to mix and match organic and synthetic forms of nutrition. Synthetic fertilizers furnish nutrients in the form of salts. If you have a container planting that consists of near 100% organic material, as most do, there is a constant combining of acids and bases to produce the exact same salts the plant utilizes from soluble synthetic fertilizers ...... and the plant doesn't care a whit if the salts it assimilates come from a bottle of chemicals, ground up feathers or horns or hooves, or a dead fish. So, if your grow medium contains any organic material, you're mixing and matching organics and soluble synthetics w/o even realizing it. Don't forget, everything that has mass is made of chemicals and when the organic fraction of the grow medium has completed all acid:base reactions, all that's left is salts.

I'm curious why it is that a mix of bark fines, perlite, peat moss, and sand should be considered "synthetic", while a mix of recycled forest products, pumice, and sand is considered "organic". Who made that rule while we weren't paying attention? Wouldn't a grow medium with two organic components be considered more organic than one? Does it matter (to the plant) whether or not the mix has a very large fraction of inorganic material? How then would one explain why my preferred and most productive mix is 2/3 inert (inorganic) material and 1/3 organic, with the 1/3 inorganic fraction chosen because it breaks down so slowly it might as well be considered as being inert (fir bark)?

@Donna R - Trying to listen to every voice and implement every idea that pops into someone's head, especially when there is so much misinformation concentrated in a single thread, will drive you crazy (figuratively). Arguably the best path would be to get the most difficult decision out of the way by choosing someone who makes sense to you to be your guide. Best luck.

Al

Poor little tree does look rather sickly.

I'm no horticulturalist, but I live in FL and have lost all my dooryard citrus trees but one to citrus greening (HLB). The first to go was an old Meyer lemon. One of the telltale signs of HLB is asymmetrical yellow blotches on the leaves, which appear to be present on some of those leaves. I understand nutritional deficiencies show up symmetrically...?

I hope that's not the case. Here's some info from UF IFAS:

https://sfyl.ifas.ufl.edu/archive/hot_topics/agriculture/citrus_greening.shtml

@Tapla, I believe you misunderstood and misrepresented my comment, which was made in order to simplify things for someone who isn't interested in going too technical. I can respect that may be too much and was doing my best to simplify things for someone looking to walk into a store and buy a bag of media that they needed. In many greenhouses in my area they break out gardening into two methodologies "organic" and "synthetic" (like organic foods at your grocery store), this is referring to derived fertilizers or the microbial type. When you purchase a soil or a fertilizer they are typically labeled organic or not (you can call it regular, synthetic, whatever, this is not a judgment, just a "hey, if you go to the section labeled synthetics and buy a soil this is what the soils that will work for you will have listed on their ingredients"). In my area I've never seen peat and pearlite on an organic soil and never seen forest products and pumice on a regular bag. As for mixing and matching, I was referring to FERTILIZERS. For a seasoned grower absolutely mix and match all you like, but for someone who's just starting out or uncomfortable with the technical, the best way to avoid problems is to pick a grow media and pick a single fertilizer and stick to it. Use that brand, use that fertilizer schedule. If you change brands or "mix and match" you run the risk of overfertilizing. My comment about not mixing and matching synthetics and organics (based on section you're shopping in to make it simple) has to do with the fact that unless you know what you are doing if you mix and match the different products you can cause yourself trouble. In the future please ask a clarifying question before assuming. I was attempting to simplify things down to "go look for a product that has this and this, pick which section you're buying from, stick to that section, and then pick one product of each thing you need and stick to that brand and that schedule." Absolutely at the end of it all we're all mixing and matching synthetics and organics, and all plants and media are technically "organic" in the real sense but there is a lot of technical understanding that goes into growing methodologies and we could discuss that all day. This isn't the place because the OP asked for simple. Simple is "make sure that your pot actually drains" - I've seen plenty of plants potted in drain free containers with confused plant owners wondering why the plant died. Your media determines a lot, but if you don't have holes in your planter or your only hole is dead center with a lifted center and deep grooves you're going to have problems. It's also look for brands of soil that have these ingredients on the label and you'll be fine.

@bonsai_citrus_and_indoor_gardening Someone who corrects misinformation or qualifies information which wasn't made clear to begin with is a benefactor.

The destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether he soweth grain or not. ~Robert Ingersoll

The person who provided misinformation is not a benefactor, no matter how much they might want to be. Some of the information you provided has the potential to be very limiting to the growing experience of readers who might come across it today or at some future point in time and take it at face value. Which is the only reason I made comment on it. It shouldn't be up to me to ask a clarifying question because I don't/didn't need the answer, after all, I recognized the errors and pointed clearly to why they were errors. That's going to happen when people insist on operating in that gray area beyond the limits of their knowledge, so no one, including me, should be surprised if someone points to the error or provides additional clarity. That practice facilitates the exchange of knowledge whereas demanding your opinion should be equal to others when nothing is provided to support that opinion slows the exchange rate considerably.

By the way, the point about mixing and matching? I was talking about fertilizers too. And I don't think you want me to ask you to qualify/explain/elaborate on the things you said.

I'll make you a deal. You write me a note as long as you like and tell me why I shouldn't have disagreed with most of what you said. I'll write back and explain why I did. We'll know each other better and perhaps we'll find ground common enough that we'll become friends ..... and that is a sincere offer.

I come here to help people get reliable information they can use to get more successes and personal satisfaction from the growing experience. Sometimes that comes in the form of correcting or disagreeing with information I think can or will detract from their growing experience. Though many people do, we shouldn't blame the person who corrects or disagrees with misinformation and explains in detail why there is disagreement, just because someone got their feathers ruffled. We might all have the privilege of expressing our opinion, but it's how we support our opinions that determines their worth.

Al

@tapla, I did not contradict anything you said. However I have known more than a few gardeners who were starting out and did not understand fertilizer types or growing media and mixed/matched fertilizers, using more than one without understanding what they were doing and wound up burning their plants. As I said, I was suggesting to a new grower who mentioned that they were not sure about all of the technical knowledge that they find a fertilizer and soil that use the same general principles and are pre-formulated (all formulations are different and have different NPK and if you are not aware you will have trouble), and follow the instructions on that package for their tree in order to avoid confusion. Many people get tied up in the technical and wind up killing their tree. Nowhere did I contradict you but rather offered a suggestion that someone who DOES NOT KNOW BETTER find a matched fertilizer and bagged mix and follow the package instructions and schedules so as to learn the ropes without killing their plant. Many new growers run into trouble because they mix and match fertulizers and soils without knowing enough about NPK ratios and how different fertilizers break down to do so effectively and wind up with trouble. I did not write a text on how best to grow a citrus tree nor was it meant for that. It was meant as a simple answer to a question asking for a simple answer. I apologize if that offends you and if you would prefer no simple answers. Nowhere did I spread misinformation nor did I intend to get into an internet battle with you. I actually respect you and have learned a great deal from your posts over the years, but the OP asked for a simple answer and I do know that when teaching someone new to this stuff it's often best to point them towards a simpler answer. There are many commercially available bagged mixes and matched fertilizers that have well written instructions and fertilizer schedules which can help a new grower get comfortable before branching out and trying something new. I've been gardening and indoor gardening for more than 25 years, I have a great many plants, have used both synthetic and organic fertilizers and a number of bagged mixes in addition to making my own mixes over the years. In this case you did attack what I said, which was nothing more than a simple, "find a matched mix and follow the instructions, make sure your tree has light and drainage." I apologize if you read any of that as inaccurate. I'm going to be bowing out now as I have found the atmosphere on this thread and this forum extremely hostile of late and do not have the desire to get into any spats with anyone over the internet. Nor do I wish to offend. I simply thought it prudent to clarify as It seemed that you attacked me.

I didn't say you contradicted me, so that's a straw man argument. Had you, I would have explained how I arrived at my conclusions and why I thought you were wrong. That's how things are supposed to work, that's what I did originally, and I stand by what I said.

I can see how you would be angry about someone saying you were wrong in your thinking, but the fact is, you were wrong. Now you're equivocating, rephrasing what you originally said so it appears to be accurate, and acting as though you're the victim because you were "attacked". That's not something someone sure of their position does. I learned long ago that the surest way of making clear the boundaries of one's own knowledge is by overstepping them. When operating at beyond the limits of our knowledge, we invite expression of opinions built on stronger foundations.

I'll offer again, sincerely - if I corrected something you think was accurate and on point, as in not so ambiguous it could be interpreted in many ways, let's have a discussion about where you think you were wronged. The best way to do that is to select the exact words you used to make any statement you think was wrongly corrected and send them in a message. Perhaps we'll both learn some things.

Al

@Al, I'll respond because I feel it necessary to clarify a few things, and because it does feel as though you have attacked me and tried to discredit me. If you did not mean to attack, I am sorry that I read it that way, but that is how it came across. My frustration is with going after a person for not expounding upon details when they have already stated that out of respect for an OP who has already said several times that they are getting confused by all of the technical information and want a simple answer, they were trying to avoid being too technical. I said already that if you would like to have a technical discussion, let's have a conversation about this, because I believe the confusion is in the two methodologies that can be followed in gardening. One is the organic or natural fertilizer method, the other is, for lack of better terms, the use of synthetic fertilizers. When you use synthetic fertilizers you need to be aware of the chemistry of your soil, you need to understand what's going on in the pot, and understand the specific NPK needs of your specific plant. You will also need to make sure that you know enough about fertilizing your plant to do so properly and at the right times, (I'm still trying to keep stuff simple on this, particular, thread) On the other hand if you are using "organic" fertilizers you need to be aware that these fertilizers need to be broken down by microorganisms to be available to the plant. These microorganisms need to be present in the soil and in the fertilizer (many are pre-innoculated) to be broken down over time and become available to the plant. If your soil is devoid of these organisms or otherwise imbalanced you will have nothing to break down your fertilizer and you are essentially just giving yourself problems. Hence my comment about treating the soil as an organism, you need to be aware that there are microorganisms in your soil that you need to maintain if you want your fertilizers to work (think fermentation, I won't get a good ferment if I have the wrong organism or balance of salts). Essentially, you need to understand the biological processes at work. The soil, in this case, is just as much an organism as the plant. I am writing this from a phone, and the interface is terrible so I can't expound as much as I would like but you get the gist. In both cases you need to start with the soil, make sure you have good soil and good growing practices and your plant will do fine. Ideally you can make your own soil, but if you can't there are a number of well draining bagged mixes on the shelf that work great. I personally like the G&B citrus soil as it is a very well draining mix with a good particle size, and I have found that bags that have shorter ingredient lists and have the ingredients I listed on the label (I could have listed all of the ingredients you want to look for but I didn't have time to list everything and still don't, so I listed the ones that are typically used interchangeably on the different mixes) are usually more well draining mixes, in addition others have already listed the ingredients in good soil elsewhere on this thread, and the ingredients on a good bag will be much the same. These well draining mediums help to avoid water collecting at the bottom of a pot which can lead to salt buildup, rotten roots, and all that fun stuff. Now some decorative plastic pots have a raised center and a donut shaped well around the base, a single hole is drilled in the center and water drains from that while collecting in the "donut" in the base (I apologize but it's the best way I can describe it) if you have one of these pots you will, essentially, have a collection point for water below the drainage hole which will not drain. If that's the case you need to drill some drainage into the plastic ring so that there is drainage where water is more likely to collect. I personally use terra cotta with a single hole in the base, and I've never had a problem, but I use a good and well drained mix. Unfortunately I've helped a lot of people who plant a tree in a heavy and water retentive mix, see problems, start adding a fertilizer per the instructions, see more problems, add more fertilizer, read that they need to use a different fertilizer, so they switch, but it has a higher NPK than the previous fertilizer and so they have more problems. THEN they decide that the inorganic fertilizers are too strong and maybe missing something so they douse their plant in fish emulsion or start applying chicken fertilizer to save the plant and don't understand that now they have a pot full of salt and totally dead soil and are now giving themselves more trouble. In THAT case this person needs to go find themselves a good bagged mix with simple instructions find a matched fertilizer that goes with the bagged mix, repot their plant and remove all the old soil, replacing with the new, and follow the instructions for some time. Stop looking at the plant, just get comfortable with watering properly and providing the right environment and let the plant recover. Once the plant is doing well and they've gotten comfortable with care, then, once they're comfortable and not jumping at every dropped leaf, start changing things to see if you can do better. The more factors that they control, the more possibility there is that they can make mistakes and have no idea what went wrong. In that case they need to use something that is known to work, take that off the table as a factor, and then learn the basics. All I was attempting to do was provide a simple path forward and a warning about trying to do too much when general plant care needed to be learned before diving into doing too much at once.

Trouble seems to always follow Tapia. His constant condemnations.

Paragraphs - please!

My eyes go all swirly trying to read giant blocks of text

I bought new citus mix and repotted it. I did not take all the soil off the roots- was afraid of shocking the plant. Changed the pot to another one that has a false bottom in it for drainage. It is outside now. Funny thing, most of the leaves are gone, but the tree has new blossoms coming out of bare branches. This tree has me baffled. Thanks to all who have helped.

There is no reason to have a conversation with tapla, he knows everything and anything that anyone else thinks is wrong. I learned the best way to deal with tapla is to ignore his rude condescending never wrong attitude.

You guys are so cute. As long as you're feeling like venting ..... allow me to share a view from a different perspective. Ken normally uses virtue signaling to hide his passive aggression. Today he must be feeling extra put out because he's a bit more snarky than normal - he feels safer when there are others aggressors he can throw in with. His way of "dealing with me", can be clearly seen in his post immediately above. Silica can always be found in the threads where there is disagreement, along with his digs and cheering on of anyone that disagrees with me or is critical of me. His habit runs to quoting someone else, interpreting what was said in a way that favors his position, then treats his interpretations of someone else's thoughts as facts. Oh - he always makes sure to spell my username wrong - his way of needling me under the radar. I've been the target of his attempts to get even for years because he feels slighted. There are a couple of others too, who can't stand the thought that someone might dare to disagree with them. I welcome your disagreement because it can provide good learning opportunities for others, and because I stay within the limits of what I understand; but those I mentioned aren't interested in a debate, or having their theories tested, they want a pound of flesh because they perceive themselves as victims, and that can be profitable if you play it right. If they are a victims, they're victims of their own making.

Several of this thread's participants (not referring to bonsai_citrus .....) have and have had a perpetual opportunity to show me and the forum why or where I'm wrong, yet instead of an approach that would provide learning opportunities and add to their credibility, they choose to give in to their more base emotional instincts and offer snarky, passive aggressive comments and ad hominem assaults. Emotion is a most irrational judge. When you allow it to govern you, reasoning will always fall sway to your prejudice, and these people have no qualms about giving free reign to their enmity.

It's interesting how the same group of 2, 3, or 4 people are always the ones that are in the middle of any controversy on the citrus forum or insert themselves into the middle of a controversy, this, because controversy and numbers help to camouflage their passive and not so passive aggression.

A readily available metric by which we can get an objective sense of what the forums think of us is the number of people who choose to follow us because they value our input. Ken has gained 1 follower for his 450 posts. Silica is a bit better and has 10 followers - 1 for every 206 posts. I have 1011 followers, 1 for every 26 posts. So there is a very conspicuous difference in how we are perceived by others. I've never mentioned this before, but for this conversation it serves as a good basis for comparison. People don't choose to follow someone because they are mean-spirited or don't know what they're talking about. In fact, a case could be made for the idea that's why they choose NOT to follow someone. They follow us because they find us credible and helpful.

Al

Don't expect gravitas on a citrus forum if you loath owning a citrus tree and have never owned one before.

For those who do toil on this forum don't expect a lot of accolades as citrus make up only 0.04 percent of all plant species.

Followers Per posts. Never thought of that so I checked myself out. Me, I have 1 follower for ever 178.5094339622642 posts