Thank you so much! Definitely food for thought!!!

Oh and I meant to tell you there's an office nook in the bedroom 😊

One question- would you reverse the toilet and vanity?

I like the existing layout for the bathroom. The top wall is a good place to hang a hand towel, and the line of sight into the bathroom is on the vanity instead of on the toilet.

Whoever did the plan did really good work!

Don't love it

I'd put the kitchen where you have the living room, put the living room at the entry,bath where you have it, and enter bath from the bedroom, enter bedroom from the kitchen.

An ADU this size is generally a one person space, two max, and entertaining in it, not really a factor.

It's someone living in the basement: ) everything scaled down. So much will depend who you plan may use it.

For such a small space, it seems disproportionately ‘kitchen’ to me. I agree with Jan, swap the living room and kitchen. Keep the kitchen small and simple. Squeeze in storage where possible.

Swapping the living and kitchen/dining results in smaller kitchen, smaller dining, no real gains in living room (if you want a TV), no storage gains, and worse circulation.

VS

OR

It's an ADU!

And you can't just make "boxes," You can't walk through solid walls, between rooms

A person living alone? Usually eats in front of a tv or goes out. Or orders in. A couple? same thing! I truly think you are overly focused on "dining" ..........and storing food as you do in your own kitchen.

If you would put feet and inches exactly, to all windows, walls and doors.........we could be more help.

Define as well......you're renting it? A family member is using it? Etc

Ps. A flat screen can mount on a wall, no cabinet beneath, A cable box can go anywhere via HDMI cable and an IR repeater. Half the people I know under forty? Don't even USE a tv! for anything beyond video games.

Thank you all so much for the feedback! I love the passionate arguing 😂

There were two reasons why it was decided to have the kitchen and living room where they are (I, too, initially thought it would be better the other way around- you can see what I'd come up with below):

1. The ceiling drops down where the living room is set to be: it seems better to be seated with a lower ceiling rather than standing up in the kitchen...

2. There are more windows where the kitchen is whereas it seems ok for the living room to be a little less bright with one window and more recessed lighting, especially if mostly there in the evening or to watch TV. (I'm tempted to put a false window with light on the LR wall at the top of the plan to make it feel more open- TBD... Anyone have any experience with that?)

The main floor of the house is up a set of stairs (it's a craftsman from 1907) so the ADU will be down a few steps but not fully like a basement. It should feel more like a street level apartment than basement, or so we hope. Demo was just started today and it looks fairly bright now that it's more open.

Even though, yes, the ADU will mostly be for one person or a couple, we would like them to be able to have friends over for dinner and feel like they can entertain. As I do all of this, I keep my mom in mind as there is a chance she will live there at some point if not right away. She likes to invite friends for dinner parties so I want to make sure she can do that. She also does not own a TV and does not order out.

I'm adding a picture that shows the whole plan for the ADU so you can see the bedroom.

I'm sorry I don't have more detailed dimensions but you should be able to see a bit more now.

This is what we're thinking now based on HU-824188966's feedback (the living room is vague- we'd figure that out later as it doesn't necessitate ordering a whole kitchen!)

Thoughts? Thank you all again for your help! 🙏🏻

Jan, people under 40 don't use a tv? Are you saying they use laptops or something? Or they don't watch TV at all? Wouldn't that be nice? No big black box on the wall to have to design around...

It's an ADU!

Well, we now know this is going to be someone's home.

A person living alone? Usually eats in front of a tv or goes out. Or orders in. A couple? same thing!

That's a big generalization. The future residents may or may not enjoy or be able to afford eating out or ordering in all the time. I don't know any singles or couples who eat in front of the TV, but that's not the point: the residents may or may not prefer to eat at a dining table, and they may or may not enjoy entertaining.

Bigger is not better if the design is not good. The kitchen/diner is an awkward space for a living room because it ends up with lots of wasted space while the kitchen/diner is cramped. The circulation is also awkward, with the path either looping around furniture, or breaking the living room in half to get to the kitchen. The best circulation route for the space cuts the room in half so it's a perfect spot for a kitchen and a dining area. And good circulation and comfortable dining become increasingly important as people age.

If you want to do it right (and appeal to a wider pool of tenants), you have to plan space for a TV in the living room, ideally uninterrupted by a pathway. There should be enough space in the kitchen for microwave/kettle/toaster/coffee machine/dish rack to leave a functional amount of counter space. And you should plan for a proper 4-person dining table if the space allows, which it does plenty. Then (if the place is unfurnished) the tenants are free to do things their way, foregoing the dining table or the TV, etc.

With the current plan, the busiest and loudest room (kitchen) is in the busiest part of the house, by the entrance and in the middle of the apartment. It's also the easiest spot to drop groceries.

As for the living room, it's in a more secluded and relaxing spot, and is a perfect place to host the occasional overnight guest. It's a place where people sit so you don't need much space to move around, and the lower ceiling is less of a bother. Plus the single window is nicer for watching TV.

You asked for thoughts. You want what you want.

You are also being UN realistic

Your scaled furniture is off, mine may be a bit, as you still have not added dimensions that can be read, and converted to a plan on paper. Printing a jpeg yields huge inaccuracies when every inch counts.

That said? In all reality, the chances of this space being occupied by more than one person are less than 20% out of 100%

Nobody really wants a tub! Even if someone uses one occasionally , it certainly isn't a deal breaker in a rental. YOUR AGING MOM AT SOME POINT? Maybe no on that tub idea. No one person wants less than a 5 x 8 bath on any regular basis. Can one suffer less? Perhaps, but baths are clearances, which is WHY a 5 x 8 is so commonplace.

Even one person has clothing, shoes, jackets, all dependent on climate and habits making closet space important.

Limit swing doors in favor of pocket. No family is living here. Privacy? It IS private.

Nobody needs a desk in a bedroom in limited square footage. A kitchen table is also a "desk" . Particularly when half the world uses the phone for work, even filing income taxes. Food and entertaining? Is far less a factor than what you are making it, or what is available successfully in this space. Your mom likes to have dinner parties? That will at some point mean one close friend, or meet them elsewhere. Should she live here? How many meals will she eat alone down here, as you dine with family above? ( I know this from experience with a client/her mom and a walk out lower level situation of three times the square feet of your space.)

A single gal in her twenties, a guy alone looking to rent for a year? Ask someone in this age group how much cuisine they are creating! A young newly married couple? That is the most unlikely scenario. Unless.......................that couple is extremely used to a NYC/urban habitat of very tiny, and nearly impossible living situations. Emphasize impossible: )

Bottom line? Feet and inches do not lie. So unless you find more feet and inches, even a stack small washer dryer isn't in here. A dedicated linen is not. A generous dining table for six? No.

It's a studio, It's a suite in a hotel.....it's not a "house" .

@underthetableanddreaming, I still love your layout :) I just have a couple of suggestions, especially with an aging parent in mind.

A washer/dryer would be really convenient!

And this one is minor, but a dining table with four chairs instead of a banquette would be much more comfortable for an older parent and their older guests, and there is plenty of space for that ;)

Am I generalizing? You bet. Because I don't live in an isolated suburbia. I'm among all age groups in clients, their kids.....their parents up to 95 years and still ticking.

Young people? They "stream" nearly everything - sports , movies, tv series. Most don't have or even want cable! The lap top? Replaced with an Ipad at most. That's their biggest tv unless "gamers" or sports fans. Clothes? Spell tons. Want to ask how much pizza, Grub Hub delivery a younger generation consumes? Don't ask. A guy living nearby gets a SINGLE cup of Dunkin delivered here daily, and Dunkin is a half mile up the road!

So yes.....I am generalizing : )

You’ve gotten plenty of advice re apt layout, so all I will say is that if you keep the bathroom as suggested in your original post, I would switch the toilet and sink…..that was one of your questions. It just feels like a better idea to have the sink right there as you enter the bathroom rather than the toilet. (Depending on size, IF there is room for an inswing door, the toilet would be hidden if the door stays open.)

@JAN MOYER, your clients are bound to be the sort of people who can afford and who want to hire an interior decorator/designer, which is a tiny, more affluent, minority. Plenty more people don't/can't hire anybody, from students to modest retirees, average service industry workers, people on disability, mega thrifty 20-something-6-digit-salary Silicon Valley geek geniuses who work from home and plan to retire at 40.

These are tenants one can expect for a small ADU. And a place that is attractive to a wider pool of tenants improves the chances of getting good people.

And now that more people than ever work from home, a space that can accommodate a proper desk (or two) is a must. Nobody works full time from a phone, people work from their phone on vacation or on sick days.

As a 40-something who didn't have kids until quite late, I am super perplexed by the generalization about single people/couples always eating out or ordering food in. I'm also puzzled by the idea that most people eat primarily in front of a TV.

I don't doubt that lots of people love to order in, but I'd be afraid to design an apartment on that assumption. In my limited experience the cultural trend has shifted increasingly toward preparing small, healthy meals at home. And generally food is eaten at a table, even if it's some bitty table from Ikea. Esp. in a small apartment, the dining table turns into a landing area for both dinner and paperwork/laptops. So it's a hardworking/needed zone.

@hu-noname, I don't know why you would be associating design attributes from a larger 3BR house to a 1BR ADU, or the use of a 4BR McMansion kitchen. Some of your reasoning doesn't apply here nor matches the patterns of living in a 1BR ADU.

It's really pretty simple: the right side nook is 13'x9' with a lower ceiling; the entrance area is 13'x14' with a higher ceiling and apparently more natural light, including the main entrance, and a Kitchen, if can be avoided, should not be utilized as the "circulation" point of a dwelling. The Living area, in the natural heirachy of spaces in regards to function and focus, should be given the larger, more comfortable and better proportioned space.

Folks

There is ONLY the available space. Lots of things are "nice"! You're not relating the "nice" to the actual available space.

I have slightly more than 820 sq feet. I live ALONE. I purge relentlessly as I detest clutter. I also work from here. It would be a crowd, for two, and I do not own clothing tonnage. I'm simple mode. I don't hoard shoes.

More importantly ? I have helped people design in every income bracket you can imagine. Also more down size to assisted or independent senior variety! They are not all rich beyond dreams. That is pure fallacy. Also fallacy, is that you can jam any more into this space than I have shown, or there will be no circulation, no safety for a possible aging parent, and an uncomfortable living situation for anyone, until then.

Passages, clearances, nothing less than a queen bed for a couple, a well thought out closet. ETCETERA!

Money? It has nothing to do with ADA -it's inches. Also , I do not believe I have used the word "hire" anywhere in this thread, and my words and all else were exactly f.r.e.e.

This op's ADA in entirety is under 400 sq. feet.. Take a look at reality.......400 sq feet

I have lived in various apartments as small as 300-700 sqft with a partner or a roommate, with lots of work from home. By far the biggest sources of discomfort were small dysfunctional kitchens and lack of space for a dining setup that sits 4 comfortably without having to reshuffle the furniture (a 4-person island doesn't count). A 13'x9' living room is more than comfortable in my book. But it all boils down to personal preference, and such is mine. I cooked a lot and loved to entertain. underthetableanddreaming's floor plan would have made me happy back in those days. We're talking someone living there full time, not spending a weekend at an airbnb,

@3onthetree, they are well-established patterns for the design of micro apartments/condos in the world's most expensive cities. I've lived/seen many.

No one argues that fact!

They all compromse some aspect of daily living. ! Windows ! walls! A bedrom or a closet!

As with all space - size irrelevant, nobody gets every single thing they want, exact exactly where they want it.

Hi all,

I don't have time to reply to everything at the moment (we didn't expect this spirited conversation!) but I did want to confirm that it's not nearly as small as you think Jan. 

The ADU is 596 square feet.

Bedroom: 13'6" W - 13'7"D

Bathroom: W varies and is 9'7" at the max - 5'+ D

Kitchen: 13'6" W - 14'6" D

Living room: 12'11" W - 10'6" D

HU- we're working on where we could do a W/D. Our original idea was to share with the main house but we couldn't because of the fire wall necessity... 

Thanks!

"they are well-established patterns for the design of micro apartments/condos in the world's most expensive cities. I've lived/seen many"

That pattern would be the area most used and given priority of space (even including all of middle class+ suburban America with the Kitchen being included in the main entertaining space open to an informal Family Room) would be the main sitting area, not the Kitchen. Hence the typical heirarchy of all domiciles on earth, less noticeable in suburban America, but outright obvious elsewhere in the world and especially the world's most expensive (read: small units) cities.

Any homeowner is free to lay out a space as they see fit, and will either reap the benefit or detriment on their own valition; a professional giving advice does not push their own personal ways of living onto another.

And according to the drawing, the 10'-6" dimension of the proposed Living Room is to the outside of wall, which makes the space closer to 9' inside. Even a bedroom with a 9' proportion feels small, let alone one with a couch + chair + table. Even if 9' is inexact, extrapolating the size of spaces in comparison to each other is valid.

Examples from around the world, with full kitchen and designed to accommodate 4-person dining at the cost of tiny living room:

- HK: https://hongkonghomes.com/property/for-sale/western-kennedy-town/kin-yick-mansion/182194?navigation=search&back=%2Fhong-kong-property%2Ffor-sale%3Fbedroom%3D1-1%26bathroom%3D1-1%26page%3D1&page=1&offset=2

- LA: https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2237-Brier-Ave_Los-Angeles_CA_90039_M28185-67972

- Toronto: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25150578/304-2874-keele-street-st-toronto-downsview-roding-cfb

- Toronto 2: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25291156/4702-10-york-st-toronto-waterfront-communities-c1

- Vancouver: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25291784/204-311-e-6th-avenue-vancouver

- SF: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1288-Howard-St-115-San-Francisco-CA-94103/2060136552_zpid/

These are new constructions/recent renos. It's the old units that tend to have the largest living room possible with a closet kitchen.

I'm not making it up ;)

EDIT: London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_9_tbso-FM

Ok... How about these?

In the kitchen from the left consider a 12" tall pantry pull out, then fridge so it would be easier to reach the fridge from the LR and fridge doors can open freely. I'd also move the dw to the end of the peninsula. That way you can leave the dw door open w/o intrupting traffic.

I wonder how it would be if you extended the bedroom wall to hide bath door? It may also help with furniture placement.

@sena01 Yes I definitely want to move the fridge from that. Interesting idea about the dishwasher at the end of the peninsula.

Not sure what you mean about the bedroom wall?

Sorry, I meant this.

Ah ok... Yes that was mentioned to then put built ins for a TV (even though some people don't want a TV 😉)

However our architect has now told me this scheme doesn't work with the measurements 😥

How about this one with an entrance to the bathroom from both the entryway and the bedroom? (please note the hallway getting to the bedroom is not well delineated- I know that... and there is no living furniture etc but just for the general idea...)

I would prefer a bigger closet than an entry to bath from the bedroom.

I can't read the measurements but wonder if this can work. I have about 17,5' from the glass block wall to the kitchen wall and 13,75' width (plus a feet for the niche).

Sena, I really like your last ideas here….and I agree with NOT having a second door (from bedroom) entering into a small bathroom….every inch counts. (We actually walled over a door in one of our guest bathrooms and it feels much larger now.)

Even with a pocket door?

I think you'll end up with a smaller closet regardless of the type of door used since you need some space b/w the closet and the bed. I don't know the type/size of the window but having the bed under the window may create problems when opening or cleaning the window.

Furthermore, I think unless a third person is staying in the house having a single door to the bathroom from the hall would not be a great inconvenience.

I like sena's ideas too. The L-shaped kitchen that leaves room for a dining table, the narrow wall that gives privacy to the bathroom and bedroom, and how storage is maximized. Extra storage is much more important than a second bathroom door from the bedroom in this case ;)

I would just confirm that access to the toilet is OK, between the laundry closet and the vanity.

Ok here's another iteration... Planning to swap the toilet and vanity. Thoughts?

I do like your latest drawing, however if you plan to have your mother living there I would most definitely put in a walk in shower. Aging is no joke, my mom can‘t step over a bathtub and the fall risk in water is already high enough…someday she may need a chair in there. Two doors in the bathroom was a wise idea as is the laundry.

Thanks! 

I suppose if it comes to that, we can redo the bathroom and put in a shower... She's the one who said she'd want a bathtub...

Our mothers must not be in the same age range 😆

My mom is a very healthy and active, and will hopefully stay that way a long time! 🙏🏻 😊

She wouldn't appreciate me telling everyone her age, especially since she had a big birthday this year 😂

What I don’t like about your last version is that everyone can see straight to the toilet from the kitchen and living room. I would get rid of that door and just have it open from the hallway between the bathroom and the bedroom. Move the bedroom door to the space between the closet and the bedroom.

What is the optimal layout in your architect's opinion?

The main issue for me with the latest plan is the lack of storage. Where are people expected to keep their vacuum cleaner, ironing board, mop, seasonal wear...?

I don't know if this would work, but here's an idea:

EDIT - another one:

Now you're getting somewhere this last week. Having the Living/Kit in the windowed bay area is much better opportunity-wise. Versions with the Kitchen closer to bedroom allow more opportunity for storage and making an efficient "backhouse" as shown in HU's latest schemes.

Ok, we got more storage... (the bed will be flipped back to how it was, not sure why it changed). Just not sure if we should make one last change to the bathroom door as a pocket door where I drew the dots, removing the door originally drawn.

Go back to plan C3

You don't want a side wall of a closet in your face on entry. Awful.... go back : )

@Jan, you can now easily see all the measurements. As you can tell, it's not as small as you thought it was... It is not "under 400 square feet" as you mentioned above.

Just something to keep in mind ….

If anyone has an EMT call here, and I truly hope that never happens, getting a gurney through the door of C4 could be … challenging. It happened to my grandmother, and it was quite awkward (not to mention uncomfortable for her) to get the gurney out of the hallway do to lack of space to turn it. After that, she was never able to go back to her bedroom.