are you willing to tell us the super secret code on the tag ... what info is important to you that it need be recorded on the tag????

i suspect 7-1- was a date. until i realized its 23 .. this coming july ... so that aint right ...

ken

Hi Ken,

You are correct, 7-1-23 was the planting date. You were on the right track to decode it.

The code is simple: day, month, and year. 7 is the seventh day, 1 is the first month (January), and 23 is the year (2023). Not super secret. 7-1-23 = January 7, 2023. M55x is an identifier for the plant that contributed the planted seed and corresponds to a label on a verbal description of the plant in a waterproof journal that I keep.

My journals are now waterproof because they spend a significant amount of time outdoors in the garden. My original ordinary 3-ring binder got repeatedly soaked. I managed to get caught out in the garden in sudden thunderstorms on more than one occasion (I am a slow learner) and once I forgot that my notebook was in the garden when I turned on a water sprinkler. I found waterproof binders on Amazon. The military use a lot of them.

This is a recent photo of a bloom on one of my indoor zinnias. Click on it to see a larger version.

Its individual petals are flowers. I will have to do a bit of surgery to expose their stigmas for pollination.

ZM

zm... you have probaby said in one of your previous threads... but once you find that you really like how do you propagate it reliably over and over... Do you take the pollen from the same plant and give it to itself, or do you go back to the plants that you crossed from and make the same cross... if you do that it seems like you might get the same traits but not identical plants.

Hi Sharon,

I self my favorites if they are providing pollen, and if they are not providing pollen I use pollen from similar specimens. However, most of my breeder zinnias have very complex ancestry, and even when I self them, their progeny show quite a bit of variability. I have, on a few occasions, grown zinnias from cuttings, and I plan to experiment more with Tissue Culture in the future.

My past experiments with the Tissue Culture of zinnias have been mostly failures. However, I am not of the philosophy that "If at first, you don't succeed, screw it." I will try again.

" ...and make the same cross... if you do that it seems like you might get the same traits but not identical plants. "

Asexual propagation, growing from cuttings, grafts, or by tissue culture, is the only way to get identical plants. However, I still consider variability in the progeny to be my friend and not my enemy. And it makes the zinnia hobby more interesting.

ZM

Hello everyone,

This is kind of an experiment to see what happens if I try to post an indoor zinnia photo that is 4000 pixels wide. So far I have been posting 3000 pixels wide or smaller, but this one is 4000 pixels wide.

You can't see them very well in the "thumbnail" picture here, but there are several aphids visible in that photo. You can see them better by clicking on the photo to open the larger version of the photo. (You can return to the thumbnail size by clicking on the X in the upper right-hand corner of the photo.)

The aphids might be even more visible if the picture were 5000 pixels wide, but I don't have that size available for posting right now. Houzz probably has a maximum allowable size, but I have no idea what it is. I will probably size a photo to 5000 pixels wide to continue this experimentation. However, I am not sure this 4000-pixel version expands to a better picture than the 3000-pixel photos. So I have more to learn.

I control aphid outbreaks with Bayer Systemic Insect Killer sprayed on the foliage. I have had a couple of outbreaks of aphids, and a good systemic insecticide is necessary for indoor zinnia cultivation.

ZM

Hello again, everyone,

Well, I am going to continue this experiment involving posting pictures here in Houzz messages. This is a 5000-pixel version of the zinnia bloom with aphids, followed by a 3000-pixel version of the very same zinnia bloom with aphids, and a 3000-pixel version of an indoor exotic breeder bloom, with the thumbnails one after the other.

I can't see any obvious superiority of the 5000-pixel image over the 3000-pixel version of the same image. The large preliminary versions of all three submissions appeared to be the same size. All three thumbnails are the identical same-sized rectangles in the Edit mode. After submission, all three thumbnails are the same size. I don't see any obvious advantage to the clicked-on 5000-pixel submission versus the clicked-on 3000-pixel submission. If any of you do see a difference, let me know.

The aphids do show up fairly well to me in both the 5000-pixel version and the 3000-pixel version, as well as in the previous 4000-pixel version. For all I know, the 3000-pixel versions are also overkill. But that is an experiment for another day.

ZM

Hello again,

This is a 500-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

I can see the aphids reasonably well in this much smaller version of the picture.

However, when I click on it to see the larger version, the "larger version" isn't nearly as large. So I don't think I will standardize on 500 pixels wide as my size for forum use, even though the thumbnail image is the same size as the larger file versions.

I will look at 1000 pixels wide in my next experiment.

ZM

Hello again,

This is a 1000-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

Once again, the aphids are visible (barely) in the thumbnail. However, the expanded version for me is the same size as the expanded versions for the 5000 and 3000 pixel-wide photos. (I do wonder if these results are "standard" or if they vary for different computer/display systems.) I suppose the question now for me is the sizes between 500 and 1000.

I will take a look at 750 pixels-wide next (after a night's sleep), although there isn't an awful lot saved by going down from 1000 to 750 pixels in image size. I am currently inclined toward standardizing on 1000 pixels wide for forum use. I think some people browse the Internet with smartphones, and my results probably don't apply to them, and possibly also don't apply to different-sized computer monitors.

ZM

Hello again,

This is a 750-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

The aphids are clearly visible. However, clicking on the thumbnail displays an expanded version that is somewhat smaller than the "maximum" version from 1000 pixels wide or more.

ZM

Hello again,

This is a 900-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

As usual, the aphids are clearly visible. And clicking on the photo produces an expanded version that is apparently as large as what comes from 1000-pixel or larger photos.

ZM

Hello again,

This is an 800-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

Clicking on this 800-pixel photo gives an expanded version that is a bit smaller than what comes from 900 pixels.

ZM

Hello yet again,

This is an 850-pixel-wide version of the zinnia bloom with aphids.

Clicking on this thumbnail produces an expanded version that is just a tiny bit smaller than the 900-pixel-wide and 1000-pixel-wide images. Apparently, the expanded size transition point is somewhere between 850 and 900 pixels wide.

Even though there is no expanded size penalty from the 900 versus 1000 pixels wide, there is probably a small image quality loss. I am thinking I will standardize on 1000-pixel wide images. There probably would be a small quality increase by going to 1500-wide or 2000-pixel wide, but it might not be noticeable. This has been "fun" but we have seen enough versions of that zinnia photo. The color contrast between the petals and the bloom center (the "chaffy scales") is interesting. To me, at least.

ZM

Hello again, everyone

This is a recent photo of some of my indoor zinnias. The photo is 1000 pixels wide, as I anticipate most, if not all, of my future Houzz submissions will be, based on my recent experimentation. You can click on this thumbnail to see a larger version of the photo. Hopefully, that will work to your satisfaction with your system.

Some of their leaves are showing signs of improper nutrition, and I have recently made significant changes to my nutrient formulas. I suspect these zinnias were suffering from way too much Calcium Nitrate in their nutrient formula, and possibly in addition, an overdose of Boron (in the form of Boric Acid). I have succeeded in setting seeds on several of my breeders. I have been doing quite a bit of cross-pollination. My indoor zinnia gardening is very much a learning experience, and I find that to be enjoyable, even when the results are less than ideal.

ZM

Hello everyone,

A problem with tubular petals on zinnias is that the stigmas inside the tubes are pretty much inaccessible for pollination. The tubular zinnias do produce conventional pollen florets and those do self-pollinate the seed at their base with no intervention needed. But I surgically expose the stigmas in the tubular petals of some of my better specimens.

I have several craft knives that I use to remove parts of the tubular petals for pollination. This is the craft knife I first started with.

These smaller craft knives proved to be easier to use, because of their finger holes.

I was somewhat slow at cutting the petals at first, but with practice, it goes faster now.

ZM

Hi, ZM. Have you planted outdoors yet?

Either for later this year, or from past experience : What is commonest number of flowers, incl buds and end-of-life flowers, that you see at one time on individual unpruned plants outdoors?

>" Its individual petals are flowers. " ___ That's great.

Does each tube always /normally contain one stigma?

Hello, four,

I have not planted anything outdoors yet. I will start row preparation toward the end of this month, but probably won't put any zinnia seed into the ground until the soil gets reasonably warm in May. Zinnias are a warm-weather plant. It's not enough to get beyond a safe no-frost date. I want the soil to warm up some.

In regard to the tubular petal structure, I have never seen more than one stigma per tubular petal. I will be very surprised when I find a tubular petal with more than one stigma.

Not all tubular petals are what I would call flowers. My zinnias that I call "Woollies" have an enclosed stigma that is doomed to non-pollination if left alone, so it would be a stretch to call them "flowers". Botanically, any part of a plant that can produce a seed is called a "flower". And the enclosed petals on Woolly zinnias cannot produce a seed without surgical intervention. So it would be questionable to call the Woolly petals "flowers". Actually, I like the look of many of the Woolly zinnias.

I hope to improve that variety to have even "fatter" petals.

ZM

Hello again, four,

Regarding the number of blooms open at one time on a zinnia plant, that is very variable. Literally, I have seen it range from just one to over a hundred (in one rare case). I don't know what controlling factors are at play. I think that genetics must be involved, but I strongly suspect that other things could also enter in.

ZM

Thank you for the replies.

My question about one-to-one correspondence of tubular petal and stigma was part of my speculative thinking that maybe each stigma of the usual flat petal zinnia likewise "belongs" to a petal (incl vestigial petals).

Hi Four,

" ...maybe each stigma of the usual flat petal zinnia likewise "belongs" to a petal (incl vestigial petals) "

I think that is correct. In conventional zinnia flowerheads, the conventional petals all seem to have one stigma arising at their base. Commercial F1 hybrid zinnia seeds are produced with the help of Femina zinnias, which seem to have their stigmas arising from vestigial petals. Occasionally someone will find a Femina zinnia in their zinnia patch. Femina zinnias have stigmas with vestigial petals at their base, so they look like a flowerhead consisting only of stigmas.

ZM

>" super-wide zinnia plants... this year. " ___ Eager to see them. Will you try with multiple varieties?

Hi four,

Yes, I will try the super-wide conversion on multiple varieties, including several of my new strains. And I will post photos in this message thread. The conversion process is actually quite simple. If you are interested in doing it yourself, I can post details.

ZM

>" I can post details " ___ Thanks. If high success rate in 8 or so. Or all if only a few total.

Hi, four,

Should I interpret your response as a request for more details about how the zinnia plant in the photos above came into being, and how you could produce similar zinnias?

ZM

Interest in trying it conditioned on your future results. Certainly not to discourage your posting of information at any time of your choosing.

Hello again, four,

OK, you are definitely justified to wait for successful future results before you go down this rabbit hole. Jumping to the end, that extra wide zinnia bush was a triploid zinnia, but I did not know that at the time. Triploids are seedless. Store-bought bananas are seedless (actually you can see tiny vestigial seeds that are like little dots) and they are all triploids. Store-bought seedless watermelons are similarly seedless with little vestigial "dots" where the seeds would be. And seedless watermelons are also triploids. I think the truly seedless tomato varieties are also triploids, although some diploid tomatoes are labeled seedless because they do have just a few seeds.

But my triploid zinnia had gobs of what appeared to be plump good heavy seeds, one seed at the end of each petal. So I planted them, expecting to get more extra wide large zinnia bushes. None came up, so I planted more. I had saved all of the seeds from the hundred-plus bloom plant and I had a tin can full of its seeds. I eventually planted all of them, with consistent zero germination. But despite that, I was now strongly suspecting that the plant was an accidental triploid, despite its apparently normal seeds. With a little introspection, I became certain how I came to have an "accidental" triploid zinnia.

I had previously wondered if tetraploid zinnias might be resistant or even immune to Powdery Mildew. If tetraploid zinnias had no mildew, I was going to convert my whole zinnia project to tetraploids. So I raised a whole patch of tetraploid zinnias to see if they resisted mildew. I had a couple of rows of State Fair zinnia and a couple of rows of Burpee's Giant Tetraploid zinnias. Both of those varieties are tetraploids instead of normal diploids. And they got Mildew just like the diploid Cactus flowered zinnias in that same experimental garden. I saved seeds from choice specimens of the Cactus Flowered Zinnias. I am reasonably certain that bees accidentally transferred some of the tetraploid zinnia pollen onto the stigmas of the adjacent diploid zinnias. So when I later grew the seeds from my favorite Cactus flowered zinnias, a bee-created triploid was in there.

So why do triploid zinnias not appear to be "seedless" like most other triploid things (bananas, watermelons, etc) ??? Well, I think triploid zinnias really are "seedless". Only a tiny part inside a zinnia seed is the actual growing point. A so-called zinnia seed is composed of several parts that don't actually grow. The outer covering is just a protective husk, and the inside of the seed contains vestigial seed leaves and a teensy root. But there is a very tiny growing point that is necessary, and the triploid zinnia seeds lack just that very tiny growing point.

You can create a cross between a diploid zinnia and a tetraploid zinnia in two ways. You can "be the bee" and put diploid pollen on a tetraploid stigma or you can put tetraploid pollen on a diploid stigma. I plan to try it both ways. But I will concentrate on using tetraploid pollen on diploid stigmas because there are a greater number of diploid zinnia varieties than tetraploid zinnia varieties. For tetraploid pollen, I have ordered Burpee's Giant Tetra zinnia seed from Burpee and State Fair and some mixed tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias from GeoSeed. Pretty much any of my current breeder zinnias can serve as the diploid females for experimental triploid production. I will probably do a few experiments using the commercial tetras as females receiving diploid pollen from some of my existing zinnia strains.

The triploid zinnia project will be just an interesting new sideline to my ongoing zinnia breeding program. I will post pictures. Anyone who wants to can create their own triploid zinnias without waiting to see what I do. It's easy peasy. State Fair is a widely available tetraploid zinnia variety.

ZM

Hello Damiens,

" Apart from that I would like to have your advice zen_man. "

Advice about specifically what? Zinnia culture tips ?

Incidentally, please remove that SweepStakes link from your message. It has nothing to do with zinnias, which makes it SPAM.

ZM

Hello Damiens,

Meeting me to "see you at work" is not a valid plan.

So there are now bogus links in every one of your messages. Goodbye.

ZM

>"diploid Cactus flowered zinnias.... tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias" ___ Went to Home Depot. Seeds (brand Ferry-Morse) of many zinnia varieties. Although I wanted the cactus flowered, of course no way to know whether di or tetra. So, I bought seeds of the only certain tetra : Giant State Fair.

I had wanted plants instead of seeds. However, on all of the plants' labels, nothing more than "Zinnia".

Hi Four,

Yep, State Fair is tetraploid (48 chromosomes). You can dab its pollen on the stigmas of any of your other "regular" diploid (24-chromosome) zinnias to create triploid seeds.

I said "regular" to mean I am not including the Zinnia marylandicas (which have 46 chromosomes), represented in the marketplace by the Profusion and Zahara strains. I have no idea what you would actually get if you crossed anything with a Z. marylandica.

Apparently, Burpee Tetra Zinnia is available only on the Burpee website. But Burpee Tetra is not cactus flowered. I did order some tetraploid cactus zinnias from page 115 of the current GeoSeed price list. (I can't seem to link directly to page 115.) I haven't received them yet, but it is too cold here to plant zinnias outside yet anyway.

GeoSeed is kinda weird, in that they are technically selling to commercial growers and they don't have an online store, so you fill out a paper order page and mail it with a paper bank check. And they can take two weeks to mail an order. But they have what is probably the most complete selection of varieties available.

If you want to try to produce "guaranteed" cactus flowered triploids, you might want to order some of the tetraploid cactus zinnias from GeoSeed. But my cactus flowered triploid pictured above had a non-cactus dahlia flowered State Fair as the male parent. So maybe cactus flowered is kind of dominant in crosses.

Seed companies don't think their customers are concerned with "ploidy" so they usually don't mention it in their variety descriptions. I say that because I think it is possible that some commercial cactus-flowered zinnia varieties may be tetraploids. Photos of zinnias Senora, Inca, and Pinca look a bit "tetraploidish" to me. But I dunno, maybe not.

ZM (Not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked.)

I have been a many-year mostly lurker to these threads, but always fascinated by ZM's hobby. I am interested in the multi-bloomed possibilities for zinnias, but from the standpoint of pollinators. So, the cactus zinnias aren't as interesting to me as a more "daisy" form with an open central pollen/nectar landing site. I have grown zinnias for years, and have a relatively stable strain that is bright yellow with a magenta central coloration on the petals. They're almost like a kind of tie-dye. Anyway, I would love to have a "bush" of that variety with 50-100 blooms by the end of the summer. Would it potentially work for me to purchase Giant State Fair zinnias and attempt a cross between them and my old standby? I can also contiue to grow multiple plants with far fewer blooms, of course.

Are the State Fair varieties typically available at Big Box stores, or should I order on line?

Martha

Hi Martha. Yes to yours with Giant State Fair.

"...Home Depot.... I bought seeds of the only certain tetra : Giant State Fair. I had wanted plants instead of seeds. However, on all of the plants' labels, nothing more than 'Zinnia'. "

Of course your H.D. may have a more competent nursery. (Likely. The "nursery associate", paged by the cashier to assist, did not even know the word zinnia.)

You too want plants instead of seeds; my Giant State Fair seeds envelope states 35 - 80 days to bloom.

Hi Martha and Four,

Martha, applying State Fair pollen to your "Tie Dye" strain would set seeds of a triploid hybrid between your single strain and the double State Fair. That triploid will probably be a bush with a lot of flowers. But it would be a cross between a double zinnia and your "single" zinnia, and its blooms might not be single. Incidentally, Burpee has a strain of zinnias called "Forecast" which are single-flowered like daisies in a variety of solid colors.

I could be wrong, but I would be very surprised if you found State Fair zinnia plants for sale. I think you are going to have to raise your own tetraploid zinnias from seed. I will likewise have to raise my own tetraploid zinnias from seed. But do check all of the available zinnia plants to see if any of them are either State Fair or Burpee's Big Tetra. A head start would be helpful.

Four, your Giant State Fair seeds envelope that says 35 to 80 days to bloom does seem excessive. My Burpee's Big Tetra packets say "Blooms in summer to fall". I can't imagine a zinnia taking 80 days to bloom. 35 days is believable for good growing conditions.

This triploid zinnia project is something new. As far as I know, amateurs have never deliberately produced triploid zinnias.

ZM

I reread the envelope : 35 - 60 days.

Hi Four,

Thanks for the update. That is more in agreement with my experience. But indoors under lights on timers, I expect a first bloom in 35 to 50 days. I have had the first blooms beginning to open in 30 days. The advantage of indoor lights and timers is that you have control of the photoperiod and you can use some bulbs with cool light and some bulbs with warm light.

I am still learning the indoor zinnia gardening thing, and I feel that I have a lot more to learn. To a significant amount, I learn to do by doing. Which some would say is learning the hard way. They are probably right. I am seeing an aphid outbreak on some of my seedlings. I will spray them with a systemic insecticide.

ZM

>"you can use some bulbs with cool light and some bulbs with warm light" ___ To simulate an outdoor 24hr cycle (dark, cool, warm, cool, dark) ?

zenman, on your zinnias outdoors do you have a spray program of fungicide that you do routinely to keep them healthy.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Four,

" To simulate an outdoor 24hr cycle (dark, cool, warm, cool, dark)? "

No progression like that. Cool white and warm white bulbs are on at the same time. I usually have 4 two-bulb fixtures over each shelf. I am not trying to simulate the progression of an outdoors day, but I use the cool and warm fluorescent bulbs simply because sunlight contains both cool and warm light.

Some indoor growers actually use separate blue and red lights, which combine into a hideous purple. The plants do well in that, but it looks awful to me so I try to supply the more complete spectrum of white light that the Sun supplies. I am on a 24-hour cycle because my timers work that way and I don't know of any valid reason to change that.

ZM

Hi Sharon,

" ...on your zinnias outdoors do you have a spray program of fungicide that you do routinely to keep them healthy? "

I spray my outdoors zinnias approximately weekly with a foliar feeding of MiracleGro Tomato Food and I include about a quarter to a half teaspoon of Physan per gallon. The Physan performs the dual action of increasing the wetting action of the spray and acts to prevent Powdery Mildew and possibly some other diseases.

ZM