Hi Saki Glad these comments were helpful, and we're always eager to help a beginning rose grower feel confident with their roses. The photo you posted is a lovely and very mature specimen of what looks like two or maybe even 3 climbing roses all splayed out horizontally along the fence. You can see one "fan" of canes spreading out from just right of center and another fan spreading from the left 1/3 of the photo. I can't tell if the cane stretching straight up in the center is part of a third plant with a few lateral canes or not. This effect is definitely a great thing to strive for, but I'd be totally depressed if I tried to get all my climbers to look like this, since not all climbers put out as many primary canes coming straight out of the soil as this one does. I'll show you two contrasting climbers for example. Colette looks the most like the photo above with several canes coming straight out of the soil that I'm encouraging sideways on my fence. Do remember that climbing roses have to be secured in some way to the fence - they won't climb on their own like clematis or other vines will. Mine is probably 3 years old, and you can see that it has three main canes out of the soil (I usually call them primary canes in a climber, but they come out of the base and I presume the terms are the same thing). Mine is own-root so there isn't a graft from which these canes split off, but if I'd buried my graft the 2-4" that is recommended in cold zones, it would look a lot like this too. Now, the reason you distinguish between primary canes and laterals in a climber, is that your blooms aren't mostly going to be directly on those primary canes that you bend sideways. Even in a young climber like this, you can see that the blooms are in smaller off-shoot canes that branch off vertically from these horizontal main canes - we call these lateral canes. The main/primary canes are toward the bottom of the fence, but the blooming laterals stretch up a good 2-3' higher than the primary canes. The more horizontal you can stretch your canes, the more likely the rose will put out laterals all the way along the length of those primary canes. That means you can have a fence full of blooms from only a few primary canes, even if the rose puts out a limited "fan" of canes. As Colette ages, she might put out more base canes, but I doubt I'd get the rich "forest" of canes in the photo above even when she's mature - particularly in any climbers that lose cane over the winter. Still, I'm confident she'll fill this part of the fence in another 2 years or so. Here's another rose that for me grows in a somewhat different habit. I've only seen one primary cane off the base of my Lunar Mist, and it's more like 4-5 years old. I bend it sideways in the same way as I do the Colette above, and it sends up laterals all along the length. Same principles of laterals and primary canes as above, it's just that the base of the rose is at one end of the array and the blooms arch off to one side off the primary cane that I've bent sideways. You can't quite see the base of Lunar Mist here, but it's off to the right and below the picture here, below where the clematis is. My New Dawn never got mature in the poor location under my oak tree, and we'll see what the new grafted version wants to do now, but at the moment it just has one big cane that I've stretched sideways like the Lunar Mist above. Climbers are very different when young vs. when mature, though, so you have to be patient with them. It usually takes at least 4-5 years before a climber has built up enough root structure to support a robust blooming rose, and not all of them will build this kind of fan structure very widely. Some will be more of a "rainbow" like my Lunar Mist. Regardless, the principle is the same and we encourage more growth of canes from the base in climbers as we do in any rose, with adequate water, maybe some alfalfa to encourage basal breaks, and patience, patience, patience. The rose will "tell" you what it wants to do over time. Just be sure to bend the young canes sideways when it's young, as robust climbers like New Dawn can get pretty stiff and woody in their primary canes over time, and they're much harder to bend. Hope that helps. Cynthia

Heirloom has New this year South Africa, but Chamblees had it last year. I find the price difference an insult on my intelligence. It's not double the price, it's more like 4 times. One of the last google reviews I read on Heirloom said they were the only place that sells own root roses. I don't know if the person was lying, or really doesn't know any better. Where would they even get an idea like that? I asked my husband how much those huge bags of Black Kow cost from last year, after seeing they had 1 pound of manure for almost 9 dollars. He informed me that the 50 lb bags were less than 5 dollars. Being a little overpriced doesn't annoy me that much, but that's not a little. They are ridiculous. I feel bad for anyone that is shopping there, if they think those are normal prices. I know it's probably a last resort for people that really want something not available elsewhere, but I wouldn't give them a dollar. The warranty description kind of contradicts it's self too. Everything that rings an alarm bell for shadiness is on that website. (at least for me) No judgement intended on anyone that likes them. Edit I agree Moses it can't be so expensive. A good example is ARE. Huge plants, for less than half that price. My order from ARE had canes as large as bare root grafted, yet were more than 50% cheaper than their 1 gal. I don't see how they are staying in business, but I guess you don't have to sell much at those prices.

When I was browsing Heirlooms site, my impression was they were very anti-graft, but I also sorta concluded because they were primarily selling own root , there was some slight bias. Upon stumbling across the videos trying to see how shrubs look when grown, my initial concerns about own root were very clear when looking at how the ~many canes~ vs the grafted/budded/formed cane framework. "can be worth a try, but you might want to see if you could get an own-root and a grafted plant of the same variety to try them together and see if there really is a difference where you are. Good luck with whatever you decide" That sounds like a 3-4 year test minimum like most shrubs. Settle in on the 1st year, and then by year 3, they really take off. I've got a boxwood hedge that I chose knowing it grows 1-2" per year. It's like watching paint dry each year. At this point in my life, I'm all about the instant gratification, albit gardening is teaching me patience. When buying certain shrubs, I'm buying the largest G I am willing to pay for the size. My order is in with DA already and most of them are grafted. I might take some cuttings down the road to observe my own-root curiosity, but many have said the grafted will take off faster, and quite frankly, as much as I think I like the framework more of own-root, I'd rather have growth.

Thanks a lot everyone. I actually understand more correctly... I thought in a grafted plant the root stock influenced the phenotype, appearance, growth pattern and life of the graft far more and more permanently....and so the combination of root stock plus graft could lead to so many possibilities I would not ever know how to choose. I dont know where I got that idea. it really is for easier propagation and to get a larger more vigorous plant initially which makes it easier to get through the first winter. I had also heard about grafted roses not living long. So I guess the answer is to plant them deep enough that they become own root soon enough. I dont have alkaline soil, a nice 6.4-6.5. One thing I can be proud of is my fluffy black loam..well drained but moisture retentive. So multiflora will work for me. I have only bought own root roses simply because of where I was buying the roses from...such as ARE and Heirloom. I am going to give Palatine roses a try!! This was the clarification and understanding I needed all this while and I can now go forward with some confidence...Thank you!