Grout is not nor was ever intended to be waterproof. It is probably rust bleeding thru.

Likely rotten wood, wood tanins or some exotic orange fungus or mold is leaching into the grout. You have a rip out and probable, almost guaranteed structural repair situation.

Grout is NOT waterproof.

Grout and tile are just the icing on the cake. Waterproofing is what's behind the tile and grout. You could shower in a properly waterproofed shower without any grout or tile. I'm guessing what's behind the grout and tile in your shower is all rotted out.

You don't indicate what evidence you have of a "leak". Mutilple reasons why leaks occur, but grout is not one of them. You might find this resource on the National Tile Contrator's Association website helpful to consider the cause of your leak. Toward the end of the document you will see this reminder: “PLEASE NOTE: Beware of the claims that a leaking shower can be eliminated by using grout or caulking repairs/ replacement or the application of a sealer or coating. These actions will, at best, provide only a temporary fix. “ Help! My Shower Is Leaking: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.tile-assn.com/resource/resmgr/docs/help!_my_shower_is_leaking.pdf

@millworkman @Big Dig Construction @ci_lantro @cpartist

Many thanks for your swift replies.

I have some comments on your recommendations:

1. @ci_lantro

thanks for direct answer. So could be any one of four. Are any of these more likely/less likely given there should be waterproofing membrane at the back.

What do you think of the grouter's opinion that orange patches could be caused by dampness behind the tiles at the time of grouting, and they can just be touched up in a few days time as the dampness will have dried up since the grouting has created a seal.

By the way who do you recommend contacting to look for and repair any structural issue when we get the bathroom refitted?

2. @millworkman @cpartist

My grouting was pointed out as the cause of the leak on another forum. And they suggested I do a whole regrout and seal the grout this time. The grouter supported this aim and even installed trims instead of telling me the whole process wasn't going to seal the water.

And to be honest, the grouting works well in 90% of areas I tested. The leaks were occurring in the areas that looked bad.

That is what I'm worried about now, These same orange areas look low on grout and I feel will leak.

However, I have now understood that regular grout isn't waterproof. I hadn't realised that products marketed for showers and swimming pools are not necessarily for waterproofing purposes.

However, epoxy grout should be waterproof, and I should have gone for that.

In addition, I cannot believe there is no waterproofing solution whatsoever (albeit potentially unreliable in terms of plenty of maintenance required) that can be used at the stage after tiling. My shower was fine for plenty of years.

In the several days worth of research I've done (both online websites, forums and in-person fitters/showrooms), bathroom fitters are saying they simply fit showers using grouting and then silicone to ensure sufficient waterproofing. They say tanking and using some other expensive membranes is overkill and not solving the root cause of the problem which is the leaking at the top.

This is how ours was clearly done, as there is nothing beneath the tub. Although according to my mum, there is some membrane behind the tiles.

Now of course, given my predicament, any refitting is going to include the full works as an insurance policy and I will not go with a fitter who seems to be against that approach.

3. @Big Dig Construction @cpartist

Yes the wood underneath is rotted I believe, but mainly where the wastepipe kept leaking over recent years. Many other leaks, i.e. grouting/caulking on the side, at the tap, at the shower plate, means the other leaks were spread out a bit and so I wouldn't be so sure the wood behind is rotted. But I suppose your comments on the cause of the orange grouting suggests otherwise.

The fact you say I have likely had a complete redo on my hand for years is the problem.

I haven't been immediately able to redo everything for various reasons. But I'm planning to hopefully get the ball rolling so that we can redo in a year's time.

The main issue is that I need to investigate the best approach and learn myself as I'm getting complete differing opinions on each bit as I describe above.

It hasn't even been 20 years yet since the whole bathroom was refitting, and it's been on the cards for years, as you say. I can't afford a complete refit every 10 years and be in a perpetual state of fixing leaks. I want make sure I don't just get the bathroom refitted simply because you are suggesting. I welcome any thoughts on the best ways of doing do.

Hence, why I'm definitely going to get the new bathroom tanked as an insurance policy at a minimum. But I'm also trying to exhaust every option to make sure any potential bath/shower area is also waterproofed, whether that means using epoxy grouting, or avoiding tiles altogether, I'm still trying to figure that out. It's going to take time as I have so many things on at the minute, so I'm just hoping to find a solution to tide me over and hadn't realised normal grout isn't for that purpose.

Thanks again, and to clarify, if you're going to simply suggest to a redo and not answer the three specific areas directly, it would be much appreciated to suggest how to prevent these problems in the redo.

To summarise, the problems are:

1. Why do you think there are orange patches in my fresh grouting?
2. Should grouting be sealed?
3. Is it okay that the grouting is slightly powdery to touch and also crumbly at a couple of points?

I have to agree, that it sounds very much like there is a lot of rot and mold behind the tile. Tile is expensive, and so are the repairs, which will end up costing more, the longer you wait. You mentioned a tub. I am assuming that the shower is inside the tub area?? The least expensive way to repair it, would be to gut it all out, have the rotting wood repaired, and put on cement board, and then a new plastic, or fiberglass tub surround. It will look nice and will cost you a bit less than tile. You mentioned waste pipe leak, please have a plumber take care of all water lines, and waste lines before you redo those walls.

@Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.

After redoing the caulking at the edge of the bathroom, I tested all around the bathtub tiling over a couple of days by pouring water bit-by-bit after waiting for wet areas to dry. I found leaking at only a couple of areas of grouting/caulking as circled in blue in the pics below along with their corresponding evidence of leak showing through directly beneath the bathtub.

Any water which gets beneath the bathtub flows directly through to the kitchen.

As you can see there are a couple of bits within those areas where I saw leaks from pouring on only the grouting (I covered up the caulking).

I added further caulking where relevant and there was still plenty of leaking coming through to the kitchen downstairs exactly at the point of these leak points I identified in the bathroom.

A temporary fix is better than no fix. For certain the grouting was compromised and needed redoing. I asked three questions about the grouting, and I would be extremely grateful for your help on those.

Although, I would of course welcome any recommendations on how to do other things better when undergoing a refit.

The only section of the link I think is relevant is where it discusses the “Water In, Water Out” shower system and the “Sealed System”. So I'll look into those as I didn't quite understand the difference.

The bottomline is this: there is nothing you can do to fix this problem no matter how much money you spend on bandaid approaches. What will fix it is a tearout and redo. If that is done correctly, with proper waterproofing this time, you should never have to worry about it again.

@cat_ky

Yes the shower is in the tub,

Thanks for the suggestion on the method fixing it.

I'll think about whether we can do this only in the bath area. The tiles of the whole bathroom are matching and till now we thought the best way would be to redo the whole bathroom.

I suppose if we use PVC shower wall panels as a contrasting look for the bath then it won't look so bad...

Presumably there is still a chance that seams of panels could still leak as well as at the caulking. Do you recommend to tank underneath the tub as others here seem to be suggesting? But then where does the water go? Or do you just let the water come through to the kitchen so that you are aware you have a leak and can address it, which is what I have been told previously. Two completely different approaches...

Edit: Also what exactly did you mean by having "a plumber take care of all water lines, and waste lines before you redo those walls".

Won't it be walls first and then put the bathtub back in and connect he pipes?

Basically every year for the last 10 years, I remember my parents calling a plumber out to fix a leak at a specific connection along the wastepipe.

@Big Dig Construction

Cheers, but I'm utterly confused at your suggestions.

2. Why forget Epoxy?

Okay so your saying water is going to get behind the grout no matter what. How do I stop that water running down the grout to below the bathtub and through into the kitchen which is what is happening now and will happen again if we redo the bathroom unless you tell me how to prevent it.

Is it better just not have grout then? At least tiles on their own won't leak then, right?. Will probably just go with PVC wall panels otherwise.

3. Thanks for confirming that grout shouldn't be crumbly. What about powdery? And how do I make it right? This is an immediate concern. I can solve it this week.

At the same time, thanks for raising the concern of the rot/mould/rust or whatever the few guesses I have been alerted to today. Because of this, it has become obvious that I need to get this checked out and see the damage. But almost certainly, I need to redo a portion of the bathroom and therefore it's going to take some time. It cannot do this immediately. Rushing a 10-20 grand expenditure is pointless as without understanding how to prevent this in the future, it's just going to happen again and again.

I will be acting on this whenever I can, it's been less than 24 hours since I found out that this could possibly be mould and now I'm planning on how to redo my bathroom. But the main thing is that I need to learn how to prevent the leak; now and later, both are important.

Why do you think I'm neglecting this?

Are you saying I should have glued panels on top of or instead of the tiles? At what point? How does the plastic prevent leaking into the beneath the bathtub? If I can't fix that, then it's going to be a complete redo regardless it seems and so thousands in expense either way. Just a bit more to fix the walls as well, which would be redone anyway since according to everyone here I need a proper waterproofed board.

With all due respect, you can research "patches" forever and it won't FIX your problem. Various reasons why the grout will present with the discoloration and crumbling but what is clear from the evidence is that a problem now exists UNDER the veneer. I could list a myriad of reasons but as a responsible professional I cannot provide a diagnosis without an onsite inspection. I also cannot try to answer your 3 questions about grouting as that would suggest that the grouting could be "fixed". Who cares about the grout if it isn't the problem? You NEED to put your time into finding a qualified professional and hire for the inspection and recommendations. You might start with a plumber (just as the resource I directed you to indicates) to rule out plumbing leaks. The longer the leaking occurs, the greater the damage that will need to be repaired so your comment "A temporary fix is better than no fix" is not true. A temporary patch could end up costing you a LOT more given the damage that is worsening under the surface.

@kudzu9

I need to find out the answers to questions I posted either way. The longer it takes to find out, the longer it takes to complete the refit.

I also need to stop the water coming through to the bathroom immediately!

Your post has almost no value as you haven't mentioned how I should waterproof or at least who I can rely to do it ifyou don't want to give away trade secrets. The bathroom fitters I've spoken to won't be doing anything differently which is why I'm stuck in limbo. According to them, waterproofing by applying something somewhere underneath the surface is a bandaid approach and will mean I won't be able to spot a leak to fix it...

Please be specific! How do I stop water from getting into the kitchen from the bathroom?

" Please be specific! How do I stop water from getting into the kitchen from the bathroom? "

Either stop using the shower/tub pr rip it out and hire a pro to rebuild the enitre thing properly.

You stop water from getting into the kitchen by demolishing your tiled shower and having it properly redone with proper waterproofing. A paneled insert is just masking all that is going on behind the tile, which has not been evaluated. Your overly long replies come across as argumentative and obstructive to the advice given. There are no fixes. There are no temporary measures.

@millworkman

That is not specific. I already hired a pro and they built it wrong according to you guys. I need to know what they should have done or who to hire. Without this information, you are not helping.

@Linda Dornan

What are you referring to by paneled insert?

Do you mean:

1. I shouldn't follow cat_ky 's suggestion where she said to " have the rotting wood repaired, and put on cement board, and then a new plastic, or fiberglass tub surround".

OR

2. I shouldn't follow Big Dig Construction's advice - "Even cheap plastic panels glued to the walls could have prevented the thousands in damage that you are facing"

Can you tell me who I can contact to evaluate this further? I'll confirm with the grouter what he saw when he took the grout out. But otherwise, I think it only makes sense to just call the right person (whoever that is?) once we've got someone to rip everything out anyway, right? as they can't check without removing the tiles.

Apologies if I came across that way.

I am answering each response, providing the relevant details where asked of me and asking for clarification in cases such as yours where you have not been clear. I cannot do anything if you don't tell me how. All I am told is I have to redo it... I finally have to drag out the word "waterproofing". Okay, how? I told of the conflicting ways I'm told of waterproof many times. Either answer so I can stop re-asking or don't. Don't tell me that I am arguing.

You have now derailed the conversation. Please stick to the topic.

There are no fixes to what? There a few different problems I raised initially in relation to the grouting and now a couple of more issues have out.

@Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.

Which "patches" are you referring to that I shouldn't research. You said I didn't ask for evidence and so I provided it. What is your analysis of the evidence I provided? How is the water flowing down the plywood at the behind the tub from those areas I circled?

No you would not be suggesting anything, you have made that clear. The questions were independent regardless. Are you seriously telling me you can't advise on whether grouting should be sealed or not? Do you want me to waste time and contact you in a few months time to ask how to make grout not powdery and crumbly? But the grout is also a problem. If I was to learn about each of these individual trades only in consecutive order of application, we would be here forever.

Is it not better to inspect once we organise everything, i.e. bathroom design and all. It took about 3 months to get a grouter round. That's the availability of tradespeople these days. Then they can actually inspect by taking the tiles off.

I called a plumber a few months ago as well as the year before. They saw the same leak as I did and said it was the sealant on that far side by the wall and lobbed a bunch on. I don't believe the bathroom suffers from any of the symptoms the link indicates, apart from my lack of understanding of the two systems it pointed out.

I agree, "the longer the leaking occurs, the greater the damage that will need to be repaired", hence why my comment "A temporary fix is better than no fix" is absolutely true. I need to stop this leak from creating further damage whilst we are in the investigation and planning stages to get the bathroom repaired. By your own logic, it is a LACK of a temporary patch that could end up costing a LOT more given the damage that is worsening under the surface. It's funny you make that comment without an inspection.

You're not listening, the damage is continuing. There is moisture behind that mess, rotting as we speak. You cannot stop water topically in this situation, well, maybe covering the entire wall area with a sheet of plastic but the rot will continue until you get the wet rotten wood out.

OK, so best of luck with your project. You missed everything we said and frankly, this thread is a waste of our time. Your comments suggest you are not satisfied with the service you are "paying" us for. We will turn off comment alerts.

How do I stop water from getting into the kitchen from the bathroom?

Easy. Cap off the shower and take tub baths.

Looking at the very first picture. See how the tub flange is exposed and the tile is sitting on top of it. That is an indication that the original install was bad. Typically, backer board sits just slightly above the tub deck and covers the flange. This requires that the studs above tub height are firred out to insure a plumb install of the backer board.

So, unless that tub has some unusual double flange design, this was a tear out/ redo from Day 1.

I am a homeowner, not a pro. Our primary bedroom shower failed when our house was only 10 years old. My then husband thought it was the grout that failed, which damaged the wall behind. He tore out the tile and backer board and replaced it all, regrouped and sealed. It failed again. My now husband demoed it all down to the studs and found dry rot, wet rot, mold like you’d never want to see. We moved out of our bedroom and into a guest room. To fix it required replacing all the damaged studs and rebuilding the entire area, not only the shower, but all affected areas. He rebuilt it using specialized backer board for showers and a membrane system specifically designed for waterproofing showers. He researched online, consulted with a friend who is a general contractor, read about code requirements in our area. We also had a general contractor who specializes in bathrooms give us a quote. He learned a lot and ultimately felt that if he listened to professionals, adhered to product instructions and didn’t try to cut corners for a quick fix, he could handle the job. The most important thing he did was determine the source of the failure, which turned out to be a poorly designed and installed garden window that was allowing shower water to leak into the wall. All the regrouting in the world wouldn’t have stopped the problem and regrouting would not have been better than nothing. It would have simply given us a false sense of security and we’d have probably delayed the project longer, resulting in more damage and this more extensive and expensive repairs.
Your water is almost certainly coming from somewhere behind the wall, wall behind the tile and grout. Anything you attempt with tile or grout is likely just a very temporary cover up. Meanwhile, whatever is happening behind your wall is continuing to happen. It’s important to understand that while you’re trying to remedy this from the outside, the damage continues inside. No one here is being deliberately obtuse, they are genuinely trying to help you. You are looking in the wrong direction, they’re trying to steer you back in the direction of a thorough and permanent solution to your problem. Your bathtub, shower and entire surround need to be removed and replaced using proper products and construction methods. If you don’t have the skills to do this, you will need to hire a professional contractor who remodels bathrooms. This is not a handyman job. The tiler/grouter is happy to do a quick shoddy “fix” and be down the road with your money in hand, and yes happy to tell you this will fix it. You want someone who can and will identify the source of the failure and rebuild your bathroom correctly.
Best of luck to you, I hope you get a beautiful and functional new shower at the end.

I don't know much; I tried to follow the story here and am not certain I understand the situation. However, I'd be calling a plumber who has equipment such as a scope camera to snake around to the extent possible behind the problem area. The photos suggest there is some access to get flexible apparatus in there to look closely. It just seems to me that there's a plumbing leak that needs to be found. Water from one shower doesn't seem like it would penetrate grout and tub sealing (even with the porosity problems) to the extent that it's dripping into the kitchen below. Seriously, I'd test it by taping up plastic sheeting so that showering lets no water contact the tile walls, draping the plastic into the tub so that it covers the area where tub meets tile (even block off the shower valve-tape to wall above and reach in under the plastic to turn on water). Try it a few days and if you still get water in the kitchen you'll know there's a plumbing leak in the walls/floor.