As a mechanical engineer you understand the laws of physics. You don't have to be an HVAC expert to understand what is being proposed is not going to be a good solution. If the current duct work is undersized or poor designed, forcing more air into it is not the solution. The duct noise and static pressure increase. A high static pressure puts more stress on the blower motor and could lead to an early failure.

Here is a video showing how to measure static pressure and use it to determine the amount of air flow you have for your furnace.

Measuring static pressure

Most HVAC contractors are not good at zoning. Installing zones as an add on is even more difficult. How large is the first and second floors and the basement? The house must be very large to require a 100K BTU furnace for a new build. Were Manual J (heating and cooling loads) or a Manual D (duct sizing) done prior to the installation? If not then you may have an oversized furnace with undersized duct work.

Your attorney is advising you to give the HVAC contractor an opportunity to fix the problem. You should be taking detailed notes and capturing photos of what is going on. The HVAC contractor will attempt to fix the problem at the lowest cost. This is what happens when builders try to minimize the cost of an HVAC system.

@klem1 I didn't say I was going to ignore attorneys. We are in an impossible, sad situation,... stuck in a home that has an HVAC system that doesn't work, heat or cool properly - full of code violations including health, safety, air quality, and fire hazards concerns due to defective design and installation of our HVAC system and ductwork. We cannot sell because we would have to disclose all the defects. I appreciate your empathetic comments.

I am simply looking for some technical advice to evaluate the "joke" of a "fix" that we are being forced to accept. I am also looking for some advice on some technical questions to ask the contractor as they work on our system.

Our attorneys are not engineers or HVAC experts.

@mike-home - our home is 2500 sqft foot print with 10' and 12' ceilings and a 2200 sqft basement with 9' ceilings. Manual J, D, S are required by code here in Indiana (but code officials do not require anything be submitted as proof), and Manual J is required by our builder's specs. We have asked to review the calculations many times, but no one has been able to provide them. There is no way Manual J was done room-by-room since we had 2 basement full bathrooms located on exterior walls that had no ducts supplying them heating/cooling (CFM). The nearest duct/air supply to one of the bathrooms is greater than 25'. It gets as low as 52 degrees in that bathroom! We also have a 460 sqft gym with only one 7" flex duct supply that is in the middle of the room - not run all the way to the windows or door where most of the heat loss/gain occurs.

I really appreciate the technical informaiton and your constructive comments.

I am very sorry to your new home is having such problems. Your attorney does not have to be an engineer or HVAC expert to understand gross negligence by the builder and his HVAC contractor.

I am simply looking for some technical advice to evaluate the "joke" of a "fix" that we are being forced to accept.

This isn't likely to be remedied from a forum board. You need in person visits from a trusted Licensed HVAC contractor in your area. Of which you said you already have done... bravo!

So why did you then come here after all of that? money to fix it? The lawyers tell you let the builder / hvac contractor fix it? So again why come here? It's a revolving door. Not to pick on you just trying to understand your own logic.

The HVAC contractors you called tell you what? Did they quote you prices to rip it out and redo it? what? What is it you're not telling us? But you don't want to spend money you want someone to pay for it so you hire some lawyers. You tell me if I have this wrong?

Who chose the HVAC contractor if the builder did then get the builder involved right? What is the square footage of the structure? How many stories not counting the basement?

Does the contract specify that the basement is supposed to be conditioned? Whether you need it in the summer or not, doesn't mean you can automatically expect the system to heat it in the winter.

Is the 1st floor insulated from the basement?

Zoning as an add on can work. But there are limitations. Zoning isn't a cure for a poorly designed system.

HVAC is simple if all you like it to is click on and off. That doesn't imply it works. That's about as simple as it can be put from a forum board. Not pretty I know, the opposite is to tell you it's raining when there isn't a cloud in the sky if you know what I mean.

@Austin Air Companie - yes you're right, I don't think we should have to pay $50K+ to fix our brand new HVAC system that was not designed or installed properly in our new construction home.

Indiana code and our home's warranty require all habitable spaces to meet certain heating and cooling standards. Our basement contains half of our homes bedrooms and bathrooms. Indiana code requires Manual J, S, D calculations and methodolgies, requires heating and cooling equipment to be installed to manufacturer instructions (correct duct size, R-values, duct support/routing,...). The Carrier equipment and buildng code has requirements for combustion air and long line-set installation. The dryer duct has length limits and should not have a screen at the termination points. Our bathroom fans are connected together with undersized ducts and exhaust inside the house (humid shower air and toilet smells) into adjacent bathroom spaces. Our 1200 CFM range hood does not have makeup air, has an undersized duct and uses flex duct. Our main air return is less than 10' from our double ovens in our kitchen. Our thermostat is less than 2' from our double-oven. We have missing air returns in bedrooms which are required by our builder's specifications. Our air returns are grossly undersized causing a lot of noise issues - verified by an inspector who told us the pressure reading was over 5 times the limit (over 16 Pascals). Our blower-door test is less than 5 ACH50, but our whole-house ventilation system (exhaust-only) does not provide outside air at a continuous rate as specified in code....

Our home was to be built according to our builders specfications and all Indiana Code (2018 IRC). The builder has walked-away and our only remedy is the warranty policy which specifically does not cover code violations, but does have heating and cooling requirements.

Who would think they should need to spend $50K+ to get the HVAC system working in a brand new home?

As you might imagine it's tough to find an HVAC contractor that wants to step-in and start working on a completely f-ed up system. They don't want to take responsibilty. They are quick to identify all the problems, but we were only able to get one company to present us a quote for ripping out drywall and correcting the ductwork. Alternatively they supplied a quote for using mini-splits to supplement and make up for the poor design.

Hi, Maxjackjoe,

I'm sorry for your experience. My understanding is that Indiana has a prescribed process for dealing with construction defects, so you'll be well served to follow your attorney's guidance through the process. That said, the contractor's proposed solution sounds more like a problem multiplier than a fix to me. It's a first step in what's likely to be a series of trial-and-error attempts at a remedy. I suggest you contact a third-party HVAC designer--who won't benefit from installing new equipment or ductwork. Have them review the existing conditions and make a recommendation. If there is design documentation, that will be helpful. You should have access to it if it exists.

@Austin Air Companie - yes you're right, I don't think we should have to pay $50K+ to fix our brand new HVAC system that was not designed or installed properly in our new construction home.

Indiana code and our home's warranty require all habitable spaces to meet certain heating and cooling standards. Our basement contains half of our homes bedrooms and bathrooms. Indiana code requires Manual J, S, D calculations and methodolgies, requires heating and cooling equipment to be installed to manufacturer instructions (correct duct size, R-values, duct support/routing,...). The Carrier equipment and buildng code has requirements......

Yes, absolutely. So who didn't verify to see that all these things were done? If the permits were pulled to build the house was it not inspected? I mean if you're looking for more people to sue why stop with just the builder or the HVAC contractor? (not necessarily trying to pin this on you... it is what it is.) What is the difference for having all these rules, regs & codes if no one is verifying they are followed? I could go on and on...

You can argue requirements all you want. The responsibility of the job falls on the contractor doing the work. If the builder chose the HVAC contractor I would think the builder has some liability... but I am not a lawyer. If you chose the HVAC contractor it's going to be hard to put any liability of the mess onto the builder let alone anyone else. The person who did the work is responsible regardless. If they go under for whatever reason? Well it's not pretty to say the least.

HVAC warranties do no cover improper installation either. The manufacturer's assume the HVAC contractor you hire is licensed and qualified to do the work you hire them to do. New construction is a game I wouldn't get involved in as I tried in the long and distant past to help home owners stuck in a bad situation. It's a game no one wins in the end. Given your second explanation goes to places even I couldn't imagine.

The lawyer is telling you to let them try to fix it because? I don't know what kind of experience your lawyer has but it sounds to me like he is trying to find a favorable outcome. Just because you go to court and win a judgement doesn't mean much if the companies or people involved file bankruptcy or some other cop out.

Like the builder? Why did he walk away from it?

It's not fair we shouldn't have to pay for it? you're right as well. Just because you're right tho doesn't win you any prizes in this department at least not in my experience.

@Austin Air - No we didn't choose the HVAC company, nor were we able to choose the HVAC company.

And, we certainly realize we haven't won any "prize." We too are trying to find a favorable outcome because this has been torture. We would sell "our supposed dream home" in a heartbeat, but we would have to disclose all of the defects which would make the home unsellable.

The lesson to anyone reading this is don't trust your builder and do not trust that because there is a city inspection process that EVERYTHING is reviewed and verified to be in working order and meets all building code.

I have learned that in Indiana:

Our city inspectors admit that they do not check ALL 2020 Indiana Building Code. They also do not verify that the required heating and cooling of all habitable spaces is met. Even if they tried, they could not check both heating and cooling due to seasonal conditions at the time of inspection. Our city inspector said, “They (Builders) are to meet the entirety of the Indiana 2020 IRC. The building code is the minimum, majority exceed most minimum requirements. We, as building inspectors, do not catch everything.” He also stated that all HVAC equipment, ducts, and appliances must comply with manufacturer’s installation instructions/standards, stating: “We do not have copies of those standards…We do not know what type of (appliance) might be installed when they (Builders) submit plans for residential…I was unaware of the installation instructions on those…Installation instructions must be followed per code book…If your exhaust unit is above the 400 CFM then your house should be equipped with makeup air. We do not know what CFM a range hood is at the time of rough or even final inspection. That would come from the builder communicating to the HVAC company that makeup air will be required.” He also stated that our City Inspectors do not measure anything with tape or get on ladders to inspect/measure or identify defects. He said: “…There is a lot of trust put on the builder to utilize trades that install equipment, mechanicals etc. per manufacturers recommendations and considerations to code…We do not always see all of the ductwork R-values and runs from our vantage point and do not perform an insulation inspection. We do not take ladders…to inspect the entire duct system.” Although Indiana code requires HVAC equipment to be designed and sized according to ACCA Manual J, S, D…calculations and methodologies (ACCA Manual J is also required by our builder), The inspector said: “We do not require these to be submitted at permit review or anytime afterwards.” He also stated that the Indiana B1 certification, required for municipal building inspectors, only covers the first 10 chapters (structural and safety) admitting that there is not a lot of knowledge or thorough inspection in the following areas (all areas we have identified construction defects):

· CH 11: Energy Efficiency

· CH 12: Mechanical Administration

· CH 13: General Mechanical System Requirements

· CH 14: Heating and Cooling Equipment and Appliances

· CH 15: Exhaust Systems

· CH 16: Duct Systems

· CH 17: Combustion Air

We certainly could have done more homework to try and avoid this situation, but you would be asking us to become more knowledgable than our builder and city inspector, and I might argue our builder's HVAC contractor. That seems completely unreasonable.

I would question the attorney's recommendation. Sounds like he's simply considering the issue a "contract" issue, not an engineering issue or fit-for-purpose issue. You might want to get a second legal opinion as the proposed "fix" is absurd.

In Virginia, there is a five-year defects liability period. Builders are obligated to correct any building code deficiencies noted during the period five years after substantial completion. Check with your attorney and/or your state's contractor licensing board about the defects liability period and any other remedies you may have--such as filing a formal complaint with the contractor board.

Our builder is hiding behind the Certificate of Occupancy, claiming we were issued a Certificate of Occupancy so obviously there are no defects. Our lawyers have said this a very very weak argument, but it is evidence of how unreasonable they are.

We are in the process of filing a formal complaint, but our lawyers say this process can take 2-3 years and cost us $200K plus in legal fees, which may or may not be awarded back to us by a judge. And then there is the issue of the builder going out of business that another poster mentioned...the company does over $30 million in business per year...but our project shows they have some serious problems.

I will definitley check into the state licensing board. Our lawyers have warned us that the construction company is very litigous and to be careful filing claims on BBB, State Attorney Generals office, BAGI, IBA, social media....that the builder could claim we are trying to hurt their business relationships, and then we'll be in court on other matters.

I'd be especially disappointed in your local code official and the lack of value added by his/her department. A chat with your elected officials--to whom they ultimately report-- might be worth your time. A third-party review of your existing system by a professional HVAC designer (preferable a licensed professional engineer) should go a long way toward documenting that your problem is real and your request for a remedy is not frivolous. Plus, they can professionally design a fix. Their report is the sort of thing you might be able to use to get your claim elevated to a higher level within the builder's organization and avoid the cost of litigation.

"but our lawyers say this process can take 2-3 years and cost us $200K plus in legal fees"

Where on earth does this come from? Even more reason to switch attorneys!

@Austin Air - No we didn't choose the HVAC company, nor were we able to choose the HVAC company.

And, we certainly realize we haven't won any "prize." We too are trying to find a favorable outcome because this has been torture. We would sell "our supposed dream home" in a heartbeat, but we would have to disclose all of the defects which would make the home unsellable.

maxjackjoe, it's a rather unfortunate situation for you. Primarily backs up what I have said on this board for years about new construction builders. It doesn't necessarily mean all builders are bad... but in my experience with builder defects it's often a game of stall tactics and smoke and mirrors to get the over the 1-2 or in some rare cases 5 to 10 year hurdle.

In terms of the time it may take for legal remedy 2-3 years + cost? Due to pandemic as well as other issues like stall tactics by other parties it could easily take that time or longer. Going to court isn't a lotto system. Anyone who thinks it is -- is mistaken.

There's an old saying you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. A company with 30 million in revenue likely has a slew of lawyers that if you were awarded a judgement would at least file an appeal if not several they will last far longer than you think. So we don't know the context of that 2-3 year time period stated by the lawyer-- all the potential costs involved with potential appeal filing and so on. Especially because of the certificate of occupancy... would almost certainly win the builder some appeals.

So how much of your life are you going to put on hold for this? The cost, the additional anguish and so on.

-----------------

Get additional HVAC opinions --- They already have about 4 of them from the very first post...

Most of them walk away... I think one of them dropped a crazy figure of $50k

------------

Work with the HVAC contractor to remedy the situation the best you can is really your best bet or continue shopping for someone to fix it with additional cost.

---------------------

maxjackjoe,

From what I know you have 1 level that has issues as well as bedrooms in (part of) the basement. If it were me and I determined the HVAC system had enough room around it I would separate the house into 3 zones. I don't think 2 zones would be enough because of the rooms in the basement have vastly different loads than the 1st floor. Plus from what I read it sounds like there are issues on the main floor of the house. By having 3 zones it gives you more control... but HVAC zoning is an art that if not done properly will provide more trouble under extreme weather conditions hot or cold either one.

I don't know if the duct system was done properly so how well this works is determined by the whole HVAC system not just bits and pieces of it (keep this in mind), ducted returns help but not the end all be all there are ways to pull this off from a common return point. Maybe not so pretty but it does work. Essentially you put in a vent cover at the top of the room to cover the hole in the wall and then install a vent cover near the floor on the opposite side in a hallway. Using the wall cavity as the return vent (unfiltered). If you had access over head jumper ducts are traditionally installed to provide return air.

If you have a return in a hallway of the rooms in question the air from the rooms are drawn naturally to that filtered return. That return is filtered. If you don't have a return for the basement bedrooms, one will need to be installed in some fashion. The thermostat for this area needs to be within the area of the filtered return.

If the system that was installed is a communicating system this presents more problems. You will need someone skilled in control knowledge as well as HVAC zoning. Realize there is a lot of garbage in this space of zoning.

The premise of zoning is putting conditioned air (heat or cool) where it's needed. It sounds magical but it's not. There are pundits that will claim certain ways of doing it won't work versus others that some what defeat the whole purpose of doing it --- meaning that air is allowed to be bled into rooms (areas of the structure) that aren't calling.

If you have a 5 ton system typically you're moving up to 2000 CFM of air. If one zone is calling maybe that area needs 700 cfm of air. That other 1300 cfm of air has to go somewhere. This is where the controversy only starts. Then throw in all the myriad garbage on the market.

If mistakes were made with the original install and this company is now going to take a crack at zoning? Improper zoning can kill HVAC equipment. So if the furnace is shaking, making odd noises that would be your first clue something is wrong.

A builder with $30 million in revenue should be concerned about their brand---if not the lower-level staff, the president certainly will be. The OP needs to make a credible case to someone higher up in the organization. If they do, there's a reasonable chance the lawyers can be kept on the golf course.

The OP has opinions from other HVAC contractors which may be better than, worse than or on par with the HVAC contractor who designed and installed the poorly performing system. A third-party review by someone with the requisite expertise and without a financial interest in installing a new system or modifying the existing system is certainly an appropriate step in the remediation process.

@Charles Ross Homes - We are having trouble finding a third party review of our HVAC system - someone with no stake in repairing or replacing the system. Our neighbor happens to be a PE specializing in HVAC Energy Efficiency...mainly on commercial projects. He informally inspected our system and said the builder/contractor's solutions makes no sense at all.

We know such inspection will come at a hefty price, but we haven't even been able to find a person or company that will do such inspection - maybe including the Manual J, S, and D calculations and methodologies that should have been done initially.

Any suggestions on how to find a company or individual?

@ Austin Air - I haven't even mentioned our zoning problems which you touched in your last post.

We had negotiated a Master Bedroom zone in our contract. The builder did not communicate this to the HVAC company. In order to give us the zone (after the fact), the HVAC company ran a long and winding 10" flex duct through the attic off of our bonus room (over the garage) system to our main floor Master.

We had many questions and concerns about this working properly. We were concerned about the large difference in the size of the two zone - 750+ sqft in the bonus room and only 280 sqft. in the Master Bedroom. We had lenghty discussions with the builder and HVAC contractor and we agreed to upgrade the system to a variable speed system (paid for ourselves) in order to avoid noisy ductwork and short-cycling.

Well, after we moved in we had noisy ductwork, short-cycling and our indoor coil even froze-up. We discovered we weren't given a "variable speed system," but rather a 2 ton, 2-stage furnace and a 1-stage AC.

We currently have 800 CFM forced into a 10" duct with inadequate return air (5 times over the upper pressure limit according to an inpsector). We also discovered that a bypass duct and dampers (designed to address the high static pressure and provide relief from excess air) were removed prior to closing without explanation.

On the first hot night of the summer, our system quit cooling. The indoor unit was ice cold and dripping with condensation. The builder's HVAC contractor came out a couple days later and said the system would never work as designed...then we never heard from them again.

After inspecting the attic, we found a supply duct (register opening) covered with drywall in the bonus room stairwell. Flex duct insulated to R4.2 (code violation). We found "long line set (> 80') unsupported and making contact with ducts, studs, walls...etc. We're fairly certainly "long line set guidelines" have not been followed.

We discovered all this in June, and we haven't been able to get anyone to answer for it.

@maxjackjoe,

There are a number of companies that do HVAC design remotely, but their ability to understand your existing conditions will probably require a field trip. Here are two:

positiveenergy.pro

energyvanguard.com (send inquiries to hvac@energyvanguard.com)

You might also discuss your issues with engineering companies that do forensic work. It's possible they've been involved in a case like yours and can share options with you. Here's a link to one such firm with a location near you:

https://www.robsonforensic.com/practice-areas/hvac-engineering-expert

Sadly, you have a bully with money on the other side of this dispute. Although I don't fully disagree with your attorney, you most likely need to provide the builder the opportunity to fix the problem, but before doing this I would search for someone who is an "Expert Witness" for HVAC issues that works in your area. You should be able to find some through Google or ask your home owner insurance agent (I have found mine to be a wealth of information).

I would interview at least 3, check with the courts to see how they performed, ask them for the names of 3 attorneys who have worked with them. Call all 9 attorneys and interview them. Most offer free consults. Find the match that feels right. Beware of the attorneys who talk fast and don't say anything. Try to find one that listens and responds with intelligent questions. Proof that this isn't their first HVAC issue.

After getting the team lined up, get the inspection on the current system and their statement on the viability of the proposed solution and their recommendation for the best solution.

Then you are in a position of power. This is provided to the builder and they can choose to not follow the recommendation of an expert, but they are on notice that this solution won't work and what the consequences are. All too often they are able to bullshit and bully people, but will often back down when they know they are dealing with someone who is preparing for a fight,

They don't want to spend the money on legal fees if they don't have to. They don't want some public record of the problem or the solution. They will want you to go away.

Lesson learned from my own past with an attorney who wanted me to play nice, not upset the other side. 10 months litigation, $100k in attorney fees, no movement, no decision. Then I insisted that we do what I wanted to do day 1, threaten to reveal the information that could harm the other side. less than a day later the nightmare was over. The nicer you play, the longer the game and the more $$$ that go into the attorney's pocket.

HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion

has a lot of very helpful, knowledgeable people.

"Our attorneys say we have to let them make the modifications to our system or they will claim we breached the contract."

You're getting excellent legal advice.

I believe the homeowner needs to provide the builder with notice and give them an opportunity to remedy the defect. I don't believe they're obligated to accept an absurd solution or endure a long series of trial-and-error attempts. I believe what the HVAC contractor is proposing falls into the absurd category. Determining and documenting whether it is indeed absurd is why you'd call on an experienced professional to review the design, the proposed modification and provide a workable solution(s.)

Well, after we moved in we had noisy ductwork, short-cycling and our indoor coil even froze-up. We discovered we weren't given a "variable speed system," but rather a 2 ton, 2-stage furnace and a 1-stage AC.

maxjackjoe,

I was under the impression you had a 100,000 btu furnace set to 4 tons of air flow (1600 CFM). This size furnace can typically accommodate upto 5 tons of AC.

Now you say 2 ton, 2-stage & 1 stage AC. It is common for builders to use a 2 ton HVAC system for a master suite along with some other area nearby because a 300 sq. ft. master would be grossly over sized at 2 tons --- they typically are over sized some even in my neck of the woods. So do you have 2 HVAC systems? (1) 4 ton and (1) 2ton?

a 2-stage furnace is usual variable speed the variable speed in this type of system refers to the blower motor only sometimes they could be ECM --- this is more or less the same thing, just a marginally cheaper way of doing it.

If you are wanting completely variable then you are looking at modulating furnace (condensing) these will also contain a variable speed blower --- however by stating modulating there is no real way in the world of HVAC to misinterpret what you mean at least not from what I know (29 years talking here, not about braggin just illustrating).

On the AC end you want Inverter. Just realize that in some cases Inverter can be anywhere from 2 to 5 speeds on the low end cost spectrum to fully "variable" where the AC Inverter is capable of 1% adjustments up and down. These types are very high end when combined together costs very high for these types. In the Inverter AC 2 speed realm it typically happens when communicating designed Inverter was chosen to be comingled with a non-communicating thermostat, that essentially locks out the Inverter AC from living to it's full potential. Manufacture communicating controls are expensive. How a manufacture does or doesn't due Inverter systems can vary... this is why control knowledge as well as manufacture knowledge often come into play in these situations. Why someone on the ground in person is better than a general discussion from a forum board.

A lot of information gleened from the internet is poor information. In an era of enthusiast looking for clicks to get paid for views? What other reason is there, maybe I've missed something?

--------- flex duct rated at R4 --- probably because they couldn't get anything else. Since shortly after the pandemic began flex duct is extremely hard to get at all, let alone in the R- rating value you want. This isn't to give them a pass but to high light a reason why. Under pressure to finish the home, get her done sort of thing if I had to guess. This could also be part of the reason why ducted returns were skipped. I only know what I know from actually doing it, not for clicks, notoriety or likes.

This could also be the reason for the single 10" duct it was all they could get at the time? I don't know for sure.

------------- on the HVAC zoning side of things ------

If you have single HVAC system say 5 ton -- at 2000 cfm of air. You want to zone the master from the rest of the house. That master usually in the size of 300 to 500 sq ft will have 5 tons of cooling when only that zone is calling. This is typically trouble. Even if the system was 4 ton at 1600 cfm.

With 300 sq ft. that area is typically going to require less than 1 ton of cooling or less than 400 cfm of air so you can visualize to some degree. Even with 2 stage AC there would be a lot of short cycle with that set up. Short cycle is more detrimental to AC because of oil return to the compressor. Without proper oil return, compressor seizes.

In my neck of the woods... traditionally mild winters. Furnaces short cycle here "regulary" it matters not one bit in my opinion for a furnace to short cycle. Provided it isn't short cycling due to some nefarious problem, like flame sensing, inadequate ignition and so on. Furnace short cycle isn't on the same level as AC short cycle. But it depends why? If the thermostat is satisfied with heating short cycle there isn't much more than you can do. Some may say the furnace is over sized. But is that right or is it just mild weather? (Never forget to add context to whatever your goals are)

Yeah you could do the mini split thing, a head on the wall in each room. Then in a few years clicking noises start and you have trouble sleeping because of it.

That's not a dream home in my opinion. That's a nightmare as well. (do a search on mini split clicking noises - you'll see, not to mention condensate drips and so on. it's a basement so you'll not likely get a cassette to work either.)

Remember what I said about random information on the internet. Consider your sources people.

@ Austin Air - agreed - this will never be our "dream home"

To clarify on your previous post:

We have a 4 ton system which was designed to heat and cool our main floor and basement - roughly 5000 sqft. - MINUS our 280 sqft Master Bedroom which was zoned off of the the 2 ton system installed in our Bonus Room over our garage - roughly 800 sqft.

This was an after-thought since the builder did not inform the HVAC contractor about our contractual discussions and agreements. Our discussions focused entirely on cooling of our Master Bedroom on hot summer months, as we like to keep our bedroom very cool on the summer nights, but no need to cool our entire house to that level.

We had lengthy discussions about how a 2-ton system would work for such a small area (280 sqft.). Initially we were told the Master bedroom zone would "supplement" AC during hot summer nights, but we have no supply ducts running from the basement unit to our Master Bedroom. The Bonus Room system over the garage is the only heating and cooling supply to the Master Bedroom. We paid to upgrade to a variable speed system to prevent noise, high static pressure, equipment wear and tear, early system failure...We were given a 1-stage AC unit, so our understanding is we have only one-speed (100%) and a full 800 CFM going through a 10" winding, sagging, twisting flex duct (over 50') to our bedroom. The system was initially designed with a bypass duct and dampers to mitigate the excess pressure going to the Master Bedroom zone, but that was ripped out before closing (We have before and after pictures to prove this).

I appreciate all your technical information.

As frustrating and painful as it is, please let them keep working on it. The time for attorneys is only after they refuse to try to fix it and you still have unacceptable results.

We had a good general contractor and a good HVAC sub. But HVAC had a new and inexperienced team do our install. The issues and damages were too numerous to list here.

We went through several repairs, redesigns and equipment changes over 4 years. The warranty does not end at one year as long as they continue trying to fix it.

We maintained a generous and patient attitude which I think kept everyone appreciative and engaged. We eventually got there. Painful, yes. But it didn't cost us a dime. Good luck!

Our home was to be built according to our builders specfications and all Indiana Code (2018 IRC). The builder has walked-away and our only remedy is the warranty policy which specifically does not cover code violations, but does have heating and cooling requirements.

What exactly does "builder has walked away" mean? He is being uncopperative and difficult, or has he delared the there are no problems and there is nothing to be done? Is this builder sitll in business? Have you discussed with your lawyer how many attempts are needed in order to avoid a breach of contract on your part?

The builder is declaring the home is complete and since we were issued a Certificate of Occupancy there couldn't possibly be any code violations or construction defects.

That's either naivete on the part of your builder or he's blowing smoke. Inspections by code officials are not comprehensive enough to guarantee a home is free of code-related issues. For this reason, states hold builders responsible to correct defects identified at any time during the specified defect liability period. Your attorney--if their practice includes residential construction issues--should be able to press the issue.

@ Austin Air - agreed - this will never be our "dream home"

To clarify on your previous post:

We have a 4 ton system which was designed to heat and cool our main floor and basement - roughly 5000 sqft. - MINUS our 280 sqft Master Bedroom which was zoned off of the the 2 ton system installed in our Bonus Room over our garage - roughly 800 sqft.

This was an after-thought since the builder did not inform the HVAC contractor about our contractual discussions and agreements. Our discussions focused entirely on cooling of our Master Bedroom on hot summer months, as we like to keep our bedroom very cool on the summer nights, but no need to cool our entire house to that level.

We had lengthy discussions about how a 2-ton system would work for such a small area (280 sqft.).

So this area the master bedroom suite + bonus room is just under 1100 sq ft. or 550 sq ft per ton. Given this is a new build this unit is oversized most likely unless there are walls of glass or very high grandeur ceilings (air volume) adding to the load of the structure.

How much room area in sq ft is the basement area where the bedrooms are?

If the main house system (the 4 ton system) was separated from the basement rooms would that eliminate problems on the main level? I know you said something about thermostat placement with this system is problematic in kitchen or some other not well thought out location?

Thermostats should always be placed near the filtered return of the system it controls, and not on any exterior wall or near any heat or cool source that will influence the decisions it is trying to make. Like in the path of a supply vent etc. --- only within return air area.

------------- using equipment to zone areas ------

This is traditionally the best way, because once you get into the control realm to do these things --- there are a plethora of things that can go wrong. So in some situations it may be best to only have one zone system in the house.

As you already know trying to zone a small area is problematic. It can work but there is a long list of things that have to be followed. Long duct runs isn't a good design, not sizing duct work appropriately to handle the cfm required won't work either.

If something shady going on? where the contractor was forced to pay for these upgrades out of his own pocket because the builder failed to relay the info? Remember if it's not in writing it's going to be difficult for you. Maybe the before and after pics help you I don't know.

---------------- what you *MIGHT* be able to do -------

maybe you separate the main house system (4 ton) to control the main level only. No zoning, on 4 ton system ---relocate the thermostat to a better central location. Add a new filtered return to that location if you have to.

zone the smaller system to the bonus room, the master suite and the bedrooms in the basement. I don't know if this is possible or not. If it's not you may need to redesign it so it will.

Keep this in mind though about these areas that would be separated from the main system (4ton). --- this larger system is off more like at night time. Larger systems cost more to run.

The master suite is a small area, the bedrooms in the basement (I don't know how big an area this is) but because these rooms are in the basement the loads are greatly reduced.

I don't know if it's possible due to location of this 2 ton system being able to connect and do everything necessary duct work wise without additional construction project. Also trying to keep duct runs in similar lengths or as similar as possible.

Possibly take it in baby steps? Pick a system and tell them you want to see them fix something first. List all the problems you have and let them fix certain problems you have only proceeding until those issues are fixed to your satisfaction.

@ Austin Air - interesting idea...

Our bonus room does have many windows, but the ceilings are only 8' and sloped down to 6' along the sides. The Master Bedroom ceiling is 10' with a coffered ceiling which reduces the volume slightly.

Our main floor thermostat and large air return are both right next to our double-ovens. This is a bad location for both and the main air return location is a 2018 IRC code violation.

The basement bedrooms are relatively small 14'x13' and 12x12 with 9' ceilings. The Bonus Room system is directly above the basement bedrooms -2 floors up. I don't know if there is a way to run ducts through wall cavities. We only have 4" stud walls.

The Master Bedroom zone is nearly 60' away from the Bonus Room unit, so there is no way to shorten that duct run. The duct is also unsupported, winding, and sagging through the attic. We also have a long line set for the Bonus Room unit that exceeds 80 "equivalent feet" which I'm sure "long line set guidelines" were not followed. That long line set is unsupported through the attic making contact with ducts, studs and walls as it is routed out of the house to the AC unit. I suppose a metal duct (insulated) run to the Master Bedroom would improve performance by reducing air friction significantly??? But, it would still be a long duct run.

I really appreciate the ideas your throwing out there. Let me know if you think of anything else.

Yeah it's really never a good idea to have a return located in or very close to a kitchen. So maybe you have them fix this first and disconnect this system from the bedrooms in the basement. If the bedrooms are currently being used maybe temporarily "safely" use a space heater for this area, follow the safety advice of the heater manufacturer.

to connect the bedrooms in the basement construct a chase to house the ducts to this area and to the equipment location.

Given the long duct run to the master bedroom zoning it "properly" may work fine. It's not ideal, but I've done complicated jobs before with the understanding that even more options may need to be considered at a later date. It is what it is sort of thing. Compromise that there may be some periods of time that aren't as comfortable as other times. OR dig deeper for more costly solutions.

If the bonus room isn't being used as a bedroom, this area could be programmed to be off during the night. Even if it is used at night, it may not be that big of a deal.

A properly zoned HVAC system will continue the call for the areas that need the conditioning. So as those zones satisfy more air goes to the zones that are still calling.

The hard part is knowing what is "proper" & what "isn't proper". Why it may be best for you to proceed in baby steps to see what your HVAC contractor is capable of.

@maxjackjoe,

It's clear from your description and the validation of four different HVAC contractors that your HVAC system is pretty messed up. Without the ability to view the system first hand, I submit that any attempt to troubleshoot or redesign your HVAC system does you a disservice. That said, I don't think you're obligated to let the original system designer/installer proceed with an absurd solution which is what I believe they have proposed. Absurd baby steps are just that.

I'm sure that HVAC systems in Indiana require installation by a licensed mechanical contractor--not a builder. 50% of them graduated in the bottom of their class. I'm pretty sure that's where the original HVAC contractor finished, if he even graduated high school.

The intelligence of our HVAC contractor and builder can certainly be questioned. Also, the fact that our city inspectors are not trained beyond chapters 1 through 10 of the IRC is also disappointing:

· CH 11: Energy Efficiency

· CH 12: Mechanical Administration

· CH 13: General Mechanical System Requirements

· CH 14: Heating and Cooling Equipment and Appliances

· CH 15: Exhaust Systems

· CH 16: Duct Systems

· CH 17: Combustion Air

Our city inspectors confirmed to us that they "trust" the builder/HVAC contractors to build and install according to equipment/manufacturer instructions/requirements and all 2018 IRC. Our city inspector do not require a review or sign-of on ACCA Manual J, S, and D, WHICH WAS CLEARLY NOT DONE ON OUR HOME.

With that said, it goes way beyond an intelligence and competence issue - although it is certain both are severely lacking. What happened to us was an unethical cutting of corners for profit. We raised HVAC concerns before drywall when corrections could have been made, but we were assured the system was fine. We didn't know what we know now after months of research and study and consulting other HVAC experts and P.E.s. We probably didn't ask all the right questions. We probably should have retained a lawyer at that time, but we trusted too much in our builder.

maxjackjoe,

As I see it from the new construction realm is all that matters (most of the time to a builder) is that the unit cycles on and off. Certainly they are required to pull permits, but as you are now aware a permit or even a certificate of occupancy doesn't mean much when it comes to proper operation of a HVAC system.

But it turns on and off? The builder is motivated by making money so all their apples are primarily stacked in that cellar of money with a fine layer of smoke so no one sees it until after you take possession. See here we have a certificate of occupancy that will fix any neglect on our part.

So this Builder vs HVAC contractor drubbing isn't necessarily anything to be concerned with now. The damage to you has already been done. It's merely to highlight those who may stumble across this later what exactly a permit or certificate of occupancy actually provides you with.

Not to say you shouldn't pull a permit if required, but just because you have one doesn't mean much... other than it was a legal build.

Charles the builder on my case in another thread about pulling permits. Builder just trying to be HVAC when they don't realize no nail beating is used in the installation of an HVAC system.

Ray,

Builders rely on a number of professionals to design and install systems which require particular licenses including electrical, plumbing and mechanical. Irrespective of who pulled the permits, the builder is ultimately responsible for the end product. There is no prohibition on builders collaborating in either phase. Indeed such installations are generally made better by collaboration.

the builder is ultimately responsible for the end product.

In my location that amounts to a year, some times 2. You're not telling me anything new Charles.

The OP of this thread has a product that doesn't work... the builder waving a certificate of occupancy as an excuse.

You're the odd man out here Charles. In my experience it's better to prove what you do with actions, rather than words. Words mean nothing if you don't back it up with what you do.

Just because you're responsible for your builds doesn't mean you should pretend to be something you are not. Here or anywhere. The truth always comes out in the end.

No one is above forgiveness. But to forgive means you are going to change your ways. Actions as they say speak louder than any word typed or spoken.

"In my location that amounts to a year, some times 2."

Actually, in your area, Ray, builders are on the hook for longer than that. The Texas Residential Construction Liability Act allows homeowners to make a claim for breach of contract and/or warranty within a four year period.

The saga continues with our defective home…The builder is using legal threats, fees, and the long painful legal process to intimidate us. They are refusing to consider reasonable settlement offers or submit to mediation. Our lawyers tell us that a judge will, without a doubt, REQUIRE mediation before trial; yet our builder refuses to consider mediation without going through lengthy and expensive discovery and depositions. We are told this path will rack up legal fees over $100K this year without resolution. We could likely fix all the problems with our house for $100K, so the whole process seems ridiculous and unfair.

Do we walk away and allow the builder to bully us and get away with shoddy, defective work? We just want to find some peace. We would walk away and sell the house, but we would need to disclose all the defects - sell at a significant loss - or subject ourselves to future legal action (if we didn’t disclose defects).

We want to try and see if the developer, who provided us a list of ”approved builders” can help us mediate this situation outside of court, but our lawyer says we could get sued for trying to damage the builder’s business relationship. We want to file complaints on BBB, IBA, BAGI, State Attorney General, social media complaits…but our lawyer says the builder could sue us for slander…

We find more defects and code violations every day…For example, we just confirmed the BROAN NuTone 636 roof cap (with a screen) used for our dryer exhaust is not approved for dryer venting…

We don’t know what to do. This has been an unbelievable experience.

@maxjackjoe, is there any way for you to find other homeowner's in your same circumstance? If your builder was truly worried about his reputation, it seems he would absolutely want to make things right. The way you describe the situation, it sounds more like the builder has something to hide - maybe alot more.

Ask your attorney how many people it takes for a class action suit.

Not sure where you live but we learned the hard way that warranty claims need to be filed well within the time frame covered. So even if you follow the advice of having the original builder make the repairs, if they can’t solve it, and then the warranty time lapses, even though you started the repairs on time, you are out of luck. Our insurance told us we needed to start a warranty claim while at the same time asking the builder to attempt the repairs. I even kept all my emails with insurance and builder and still our claim was denied as outside of warranty period even though I raised the issues within two months of living here.

I suggest you explore whether and how to file a complaint with your state's contractor licensing board. The cost to do so should be minimal. The board has the leverage of being able to fine the contractor and/or suspend their license. That's a pretty powerful incentive to work with you to solve the problems. I don't know whether you have the option to file a complaint against the mechanical contractor, but I'd explore that option, too.

^^^ this. In my state the board has a lot of power, has on staff investigators, conducts hearings, etc and is protective of their "brand" and don't want shady contractors.

And I despise bullies.

Do you have a TV troubleshooter? consider a webpage with facts? Other bad publicity where yuo are simply stating the truth?