How exciting to wait patiently for a new kitchen for 5 years and finally get to do it!

Is the don’t-move-the-door constraint based on the structural limitations (door physically cannot be moved no matter the cost) or did you get an estimate and it was simply a cost prohibitve project?

i ask because i think its possible you could squeeze a lot more function out of the space if the door could be moved to where the sink window is.

Thank you for looking at my kitchen sheloveslayouts! I am attaching photos of the outside of the house showing where the back door is. I can't move it to where the sink window is because of the basement stairs and I need to be able to access the sunroom through that door. That door is killing me! In the original plan for the house (cape style) that space where the door is was the dining room and the refrigerator was against the wall where the table is.

Edit: i found all the answers to my questions in that five year old thread. Its funny that my approach to yiur space was the same five years ago as it is today. Ha. (Im still Benje’s Bride in real life, just had to change my user name when i resumed my account after a few years away.)

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More questions. im trying to visialize what youve got going on here. Is the range behind the hall mirror oris that maybe a bathroom/tub? (red)

Does the sunroom wrap around the corner so the window closest to the fridge looks into the sunroom as well (blue)?

Is there a garage or part of your house to the left of that window--behind the fridge (green)?

Yes, range is behind the wall with the mirror. There is a bathroom behind the range wall.

Yes, the sunroom wraps around the corner by the blue window.

Behind the fridge wall (green box) is the garage that was converted into my living room.

Additional pics attached.

Okay. This might push beyond your comfort level, but that doggone door to the sunroom needs to go. It turns your kitchen into a hallway and every effort to work around it just makes for a goofy layout. You've waited a long time and this is too large an investment to let that door boss you around.

I propose you move the sunroom door to the living room and add a backdoor to the bathroom side of your current kitchen sink window -- a straight shot outside from the end of the hall.

Going around the room from the bottom left you'll see... 36" refrigerator - 24" dishwasher - 36" sink - corner windows in your primary prep zone - 30" cooktop (with drawers below - 30" oven stack for wall oven and microwave. And a large island with extra 15" deep storage behind the 15" overhang seating for two. (You can choose a range instead of the cooktop, of course and put the microwave in the island if you'd prefer more counter around the cooktop.)

To capture maximum natural light, I'd make the new back door a full-lite door.

I wouldn't remove the wall between kitchen and dining, but I prioritize not seeing a kitchen sink from a homes front entryway. The existing openings in the dining/kitchen can stay as-is or the opening closes to the living room can be narrowed down to 42" as in the drawing.

The Ikea planner won't render the corner windows, but here's an idea of the kitchen from the end of your hall....

OR

sheloveslayouts: Thank you for taking the time to make those diagrams. Believe me, I know the door is a problem but moving it creates bigger problems. When the weather is warm enough here in NY (April - November) we use that sunroom as an extension of the kitchen. We eat almost all meals in there, have morning coffee or evening cocktails in there, entertain in there and my grandson plays in there. It leads out to a deck and my backyard. The backdoor is usually open between the two rooms. I can't image having to walk around through my carpeted living room carrying food, drinks, etc. to get to the sunroom. And I could not leave a 2-yo if I need to run into the kitchen to get a snack or drink.

And while I totally agree that your design would be a much more efficient use of the space the cost to do that is prohibitive. Between the cost of changing the placement of the doors, the cement and paver work for the steps, closing the window near the new door (the siding was just done last spring), moving the plumbing and gas (neither are on that side of the kitchen) I think I would be overspending for my house. My kitchen does not warrant spending that much money. I'm not looking for a "dream" kitchen--I don't really have one. That will never happen in this house and I'm okay with that. I just need something more efficient and designed better than what I have.

I have been hesitant about taking down the wall for the same reason as you stated above. But I thought by opening the wall and putting cabinets on the dining room side (which would give me more storage) with one countertop covering both sides I could get an better area for serving when I have parties. I would like a better entertaining space.

Again, I do appreciate your help.

eld6161: For sure the sink is coming out of the corner, although I didn't mind it because it gave me more counter space in a small kitchen, and I really was the only one cooking and cleaning in this kitchen. Thanks for your comment.

Benje's bride! No wonder I'm thinking so highly of your ideas! Some things never change.

Can you please post a floor plan showing all rooms (and the outdoors too) and how they relate to the kitchen? It doesn't need to be to scale.

Hi, @cpartist! I left with Sophie, but I've totally run out of real life kitchens to tinker with and needed to sign back up to get my creative fix!

I'm so glad you're here. @Rebunky was amazing and figured me out within hours of my first comment, but I wasn't able to change my user name back.

Hello @cpartist. I am so glad you and @sheloveslayouts found this post. You both always have great ideas! Below is a drawing (not to scale) of my first floor. I think I have to stick within the confines of the kitchen/dining room space. Anything else will be cost prohibitive and "husband prohibitive." It won't be perfect but I'm hoping it will be better! Thanks for looking.

Are you on a slab or on a basement? I'm asking because I have an idea to move where the appliances are without moving your kitchen doors. But I might play around with your dining room to kitchen opening.

Also what are the dimensions of the dining room

This leaves exterior windows and door in place. It closes one opening to the dining room and widens or shifts the other doorway near the hall toward the living room.

I think I read that you don't want to move plumbing. If you haven't got an estimate on that cost, I encourage you to find out exactly what it would be before you decide the cost to move plumbing isn't worth the benefit of more counter where you need it most...

@cpartist There is a basement under everything except the living room. The basement is finished with a finished ceiling but we can fix that. The width of the dining room is about 16 1/2 feet. Not sure of depth—I’ll measure when I get home.
@sheloveslayouts Thank you! I’ll look at that design more when I get home. I can move plumbing. I am definitely moving the sink out of the corner.

i think sheloves' pub table idea is good. Assume that means counter-height? You are going to love having 36+ inches next to your range, or at least 32+. Huge difference in usability. Also, in the future, years after this is done - you can think about adding a skylight. Tough to make a room bright and open without moving walls and doors. I would also say: for a feeling of spaciousness, try not to crowd windows and doorways with cabinets.

@cpartist The length of the dining room from the wall to the front window is 11.5 feet.

@BC Jones Love the idea of adding more light but I have a second story so wouldn't be able to do a skylight. I will be adding lots of lighting though! Good suggestion about not crowding windows and doorways--I'll try but my space is limited! Thanks!!

@sheloveslayouts Still have to go over your design with husband. Long work day!

LOL. Sheloveslayouts beat me to showing my idea. (I'm telling you SLL, you and I would make a good tag team.)

That's a huge compliment, @cpartist. Thank you

^^^SPAM!

@sheloveslayouts @cpartist I have been studying your layout and the issues I see for my kitchen and the way I entertain: I would like to have a bar/coffee counter on the right when you come in the back door from the sunroom (I will probably replace that back door with one a bit wider and with more glass). Easy place to grab a drink or ice from the fridge without being in the cooking area. My kitchen has minimal natural light. Adding the sink wall blocks off the dining room light from the large dining room picture window and I'd rather have the sink and prep near a window. It also forces flow (when entertaining) from my living room/dining room to the outside right through the kitchen.

My reasoning for opening the wall is so I could add cabinets on the dining room side and cabinets on the kitchen side with a continuous countertop to use as a serving area. Part of the problem (yes, there are many!) is trying to keep some support posts and still have enough clearance on the hallway side of the kitchen. The openings are only 36" now. The cabinets on the kitchen side of the wall cannot be the same size as the cabinets on the dining room side. And trying to get a little seating is challenging. I would add a 10-12" overhang and two chairs.

I played around a bit with the Ikea planner but I don't know how to get a screenshot of the images so I just took some pictures of my computer screen. My clearances are tight but not terrible. The wall to the right of the stove will be cut back to 28" from 32". This is all preliminary. Still deciding about opening that wall. Your comments are welcome!

@cpartist @sheloveslayouts Still playing around with the Ikea planner. Maybe this is better? Keep the wall. Put two 24" cabinets back to back (one with a microwave drawer, the other all drawers) add a 30" table top with legs for two seats. The wall to the right of the oven can be cut back about 3" for a little more clearance. Maybe floating shelves or a glass cabinet on the wall?

How do you open the upper cabinet in the plan above?

No one wants to sit at an inside corner with <24" of width space. Mock it up with boxes or tables to see how it feels.

Every kitchen has compromises. I would ask you, which is more important to you... keeping two openings to the dining room or increasing the worktop around your sink and range by about 5 linear feet? My answer would be to increase my work area, but you know your space better than anyone and you know if the existing layout is something you like enough to keep.

In case it helps to compare them side by side...

I really do appreciate your comments @sheloveslayouts. I put up a blanket over the dining room entrance to see if we could live with that closed off. It makes the kitchen very dark but we will live with it for a few days. Good point about opening the cabinet above the table area. I would do shelves or nothing on that wall. I definitely have to make compromises--having a hard time figuring how what works best.

Question: Do you like corner susans or just an empty corner with larger cabinets to the right and left? Same for uppers? Thanks again!

keep in mind that if youre eliminating one opening, the other opening is either widening by at least an additional 36” or just moving over to be across from your sink window.

My answer would be to increase my work area, but you know your space better than anyone and you know if the existing layout is something you like enough to keep.

That would be my answer too.

We have a wonderful thing nowadays called lighting that can help add the light to your kitchen. Undercabinet lighting and can lights. Yes normally I'm all for as much natural light as possible, but in your case, I'd want working space over distant light from the dining room.

keep in mind that if youre eliminating one opening, the other opening is either widening by at least an additional 36” or just moving over to be across from your sink window.

Exactly. And making the kitchen a heck of a lot more efficient.

Or you can make the space over the sink a pass through window to the dining room too. Now you're letting in light.

As for the coffee bar, add it next to the fridge.

Do you like corner susans or just an empty corner with larger cabinets to the right and left? Same for uppers? Thanks again!

I hate corner susans. But that's me personally. In your case with a small kitchen, I think larger cabinets to the left and right and uppers are more important than a corner susan that can barely handle stuff.

I'm warming up to the idea of a pass through as cpartist suggested. I'd do a 42 inch height sill that is capped (no overhang for seating). It hides the sink stuff just enough. An overhang would obstruct the path to the living room and squeeze the dining room space too much. I tried to find an image that showed a pass through with a post next to a kitchen entrance...

I do like that opening @cpartist and @sheloveslayouts! That would give me some natural light near the sink. I certainly see the benefits of having more space around the work area. It would be a better use of the space on a daily basis (although I only cook a couple of nights a week) but not better for entertaining as I don't get much bar/coffee space which I need for parties. Where would you put the microwave? This layout gives me less storage, especially if I have that cutout and can't have uppers and I probably wouldn't be able to have a server in the dining room if I open the wall more on the hallway side. I don't think it would look good being off center from the table but I'll play with it. I am assuming moving the plumbing, gas line and venting the hood to the outside will be challenging and expensive. I am meeting with my contractor soon to see if it is feasible. He recommended a kitchen designer that I will also meet with. I would just like to have a better idea of what would work best for me before meeting with them so I am not all over the place (which I currently am!). I appreciate your ideas!

I have been looking through many, many posts on kitchen designs trying to figure out what is best for my lifestyle and my budget. I am learning a lot! Thank you!

I failed to post a 3d image of that last layout. I was thinking you'd just put a microwave in the tall 30" wide pantry cabinet to the left of the fridge.

I'm not sure why you think you'll have less storage. Make sure you get all-drawers in your base cabinets, they're a total storage game-changer.

We recently completed a remodel of our kitchen and in order to gain more counter space next to the range, we tore out our old 24” wide deep floor to ceiling pantry. This has left us less storage space for food items, and we lost a deep pull out we previously used for pots and pans. But sheloveslayouts is spot on about using all lower drawers being a storage game changer! Also, it’s good to also know that if your old cabinetry is traditional framed cabinets with older drawers, you will gain more interior space with new cabinets that are frameless and use drawer design and construction techniques that really extend the capacity and improve the access of all your drawers. Game changer!!! We actually now have a great spot for our coffeemaker/drinks that’s adjacent to the doorway to our dining room. I cannot emphasize just how fantastic the lower drawers are over standard cabinets with doors. We kept the footprint of our kitchen but dropped a two level peninsula down to one level, giving us roomier workspace, easier serving and clean up and opening the space up beautifully. Look at the specialty cabinets available for your line of cabinetry and start prioritizing your storage dreams. :-) I really wanted a spot for oversized baking sheets, cutting boards, serving platters, etc so for us, it made sense to box in the fridge and replace the shallow cabinet above the fridge with a deeper cabinet fitted with a vertical organizer on one side and split shelf on the other.

I’m so excited for you to take your ideas and these drawings to the kitchen designer and get their thoughts on reworking your space. You will be amazed at the new cabinetry!

One thing that make help with your planning is to make a list of what each of your current cabinets stores now. (Not down to the each can of caviar, but generally what you store. Also note the width and height of the cabinet. That helps to plan your new storage places if you have new cabinets that are wider or taller. This info should be helpful for working with a KD. A KD gave me that task years ago, and it was quite useful.

About drawers. They are wonderful, when used wisely. You might want to visit a cabinet/kitchen store look at lower cabinets with drawers. The sides of the drawer take some space, and so does the hardware that supports it. (In my current cabinets, that lost space is 1 1/2 inches total for each drawer.) The narrower your drawer, the greater proportion of the width you lose. (Less bang for your buck.) Therefore, avoid drawers in narrower cabinets. Everyone has unique needs and preferences for their kitchen, so what is “too narrow” will be different as well. For me it is less than about 21 inches. Unless you have a very good reason to have drawers in a narrow cabinet, save that space for baking sheets, hanging towels, or the trash can. Cabinets with drawers typically cost more due to extra materials and labor. Finally, cabinets are typically shown with 3 drawers. That number may be negotiable. I have a cabinet with 4 drawers. I also have a cabinet with 2 extra tall drawers over a shelf space below. If you don’t ask, you are unlikely to get — unless your KD is really good. Good luck with your project.

This might be totally insane and I didn’t read every comment on the post, but would you consider moving the kitchen to the living room space? The window at the end could be changed into a sliding door to the sunroom, or French doors. And making the kitchen the living room?

The living room is a converted garage, so I'm guessing that means it's on slab. The dining room is the original living room and the kitchen is an original eat-in kitchen.