The highlighted area is 110”. Important note: that wall and those across the hall are major support walls. Beams and supports are expensive. I think a high, 5’ opening to kitchen and also into DR would be sufficient and still nice.

To BC Jones: my husband was a builder some years back and I was a realtor. We have bought and sold
7 houses over the years and are well aware of the market and how it has exploded here. I also know that our close (2 miles) proximity to a major ski resort area and all the amenities and needs located in the town there, coupled with our 9 acres in a rural area with abundant wildlife and woods, make this property very very valuable even as it sits. We couldn’t afford to buy it for what it is now worth. That being said, regardless of wishes and wants and should-do, you can’t get blood out of a turnip — as the saying goes. We are retired and 70 and just refinanced to age 100 to get the refinance max of cash that we could. I also know that what I love, you may hate, and vice-versa. So no remodel will ever be the perfect thing. We have no plans to move and Something has to be done about the kitchen - the 24 year old ovens died over a year ago and the cabinets were MDF and many are falling apart. Just hoped to make it better on a budget. Nicer, and more storage - not less.

PS We do not have gas out here in this area! Our current cooktop is a Jennair electric downdraft that is still working after nearly 25 years - knock wood.

Thanks for the extra photos and info.

Maybe something like this?

The green arrows show the traffic flow where you need space to walk. So that would mean no stools should block the walkway. And especially because you need space in front of the coffee/drink station.

I suggested no window bench because then the table has more versatility to be adjusted or expanded with a leaf if needed on occasion.

That walkway between the outside table chairs and the one island seat on the end might be a little tight, but I thought offsetting the chairs sort of diagonally might help?

Of course I don’t know the exact measurements of the isles, so this is just a guess.

I do think a round table would look a lot nicer because it would break up all the lines.

I thought if you pushed that one end stool underneath the overhang, then that side of the island could be the large expanse you need for rolling out dough and decorating cakes?

Ok…. now let’s talk about the elephant in the room. Lol, I am only kidding!

I cannot explain why exactly, but this time the island shape not being a square or rectangle shape does not bother me!

Maybe it is because I squared up the fridge wall? Or maybe because the dining room hallway wall is lining up with the long side of the island? Or it could be because the diagonal on the island is more the same length and sort of parallell with the angle on the coffee bar? Idk, go figure!

Also, I wondered if the cooktop and hood could be centered on the family room opening as a pretty focal point?

It also allows a nice stretch of countertop for prep between the prep sink I added and the cooktop. I really think you should do a prep sink there since there is not good space next to the big sink for prep. Although, it could be great for secondary prep, and cleanup.

Just make sure that working isle is no less then 48”. A little more would be even better.

Thanks for your ideas. Squaring up the fridge makes the door open in front of the prep sink. Also it won’t fit like that without creating dead space behind it - the back wall is not straight for the length shown here, and it is then angled. There is not really room for a prep sink —
I don’t see the oven cabinet in here?

Oops, I did take my eraser to some of that area SLL blew up. 😬

I am not even sure what I did now!

I think erased a couple of those short walls on the right side before the hallway to the dining room. I figured the one longer wall I added from the hallway to the side of the fridge might catch the support?

I forgot about the little corner too. The one in the hallway after turning to go towards the bedroom. I imagined a cute little corner countertop with a lighted up niche above for shelves or artwork or something.

My GC husband always rolls his eyes at me when I just erase walls on floor plans as if the house won’t come crashing down!

I edited my plan above to show the corner niche idea.

Still no ovens. Also I forgot to mention that there are fresh air hvac vents in both short walls in the hallway before the angles begin

Ducts I mean.

What is your minimum number of people you want to seat in your kitchen comfortably? Comfortably equals at LEAST 30" wide x 15" deep at 36" counter height and 30" wide x 18" deep at 30" table height.

What are your constraints on the dining room not feeling isolated from the kitchen? To me, it doesn't look like you can see into the dining room from most of the kitchen. Do you want something specific like to see the dining table from the sink?

Oh duh the ovens! I knew I was forgetting something. 🙄 🤪

I will try and work those in.

SLL is great at understanding floor plans, so I look forward to seeing what other ideas she has.

Just so I am understand clearly, the two angled walls in red must stay. But what about the ones I circled in blue? Can they change at all?

Also would it be possible to straighten that angled bathroom wall and move the door so you enter from the hall?

ETA Questions:

If you could please comment on some of the things I added or changed in my last plan that you either a) like, b) are open to, or c) dislike

Feedback will help everyone as they brainstorm.

Are you open to adding a prep sink? Well, that is if the fridge door did not conflict lol! I should not have posted that plan so quickly because I missed a few details obviously.

What about the round table idea?

Do you definitely need 4 seats at the island?

I am having trouble fitting that many bar seats and keeping the isles big enough to have a clear pathway to walk passed.

Sorry couple more, Is there room to have a dining table in the great room?

Or is it possible to have an island with a table connected? Some will look like a T -shape, others have the table section connect more to one side of the island.

To SLL: minimum of 4 people. And I note that the corbels under the breakfast bar are 30” apart and that is more than generous for space per person. I also currently have a large wood oval kitchen table (convertible to round) that seats six VERY comfortably- it is actually a bit too big for the space and we pull it away from the window further when everyone is here so that folks can get into those chairs. An advantage with the window seat would be the ease of scooting in there. A shorter narrower table than what we have was the plan, although our table has a huge carved pedestal base and its a beautiful set. I can see the dining room and out the DR window from the sink and by the table and pantry. If that is to be the main eating area, it should feel less isolated and more a part of the whole space. We eat dinner together as a family every single night and always have - it’s a special and relaxing part of the day.

To Rebunky; yes the ovens are so important!! This last year using a temporary countertop oven has been the pits in so many ways.
Changing those walls and the doorway by the bathroom would be a big deal. Depends on the plan as to whether that expense is worth it. It would impact a fresh air return duct that is there as well. As for the one circled in blue, there is also another fresh air return there in that straight short part of the wall. If that wall was gone you’d be looking at a wall and a bit into the laundry room - Not the best view and not sure where that fresh air return can go. Plus moving HVAC is another big expense, if there is even a place it can move to. Note that when walls change, it also necessitates flooring changes and ceiling work as well. That can be doable in the right spot for a good reason, but it adds a lot of expense to an already scary expensive project.

PS I don’t need a prep sink - my mom has had a small one in her kitchen for 30 years and I’m not sure it even still works - no one uses it even when a slew of us are there. If I had a small sink anywhere i might consider a small bar sink at the coffee/alcoholic bar counter if there is enough room.
Love my beautiful table but a round one really cuts into space where an island could be… would that I had 5 more feet!!

That does sound like was too much work and expense. Walls stay!

There is no room at all for a table in the great room. Sadly. It is actually a tough room for furniture placement as it is long and the 5’ entry arch going into it from the entryway creates a walkway along that high kitchen wall where no real furniture can fit. The big tv is against the outside wall straight across from the GR opening into the kitchen - I like to be able to watch the movie or news or whatever while I am at the sink.
You mentioned breaking up lines - the angles actually do that a bit and they are an interesting architectural interest throughout the house in small places. Also the big openings from the entry way into the LR, DR and GR are all gently arched with big trim along the sides. The GR fireplace has big white molding and mantel but the raised brick hearth is curved brick, and the brick around the firebox has an arch design. That arch is currently also done in brick over the cooktop with the downdraft. But with the new induction cooktop and a required vent up and out, the ventahood will be housed in a box hood cabinet with a shallow shelf above an arched opening. Just small subtle ways to keep the arch carried throughout the house as a design element.

Oooh, that fireplace and all the archways sound gorgeous!

If you wouldn’t mind later, could you please post a couple photos of the existing space? Maybe four, showing a 360* view? Take one of the view if you were standing about where the island sink would be looking through the archway into the great room? Then from the GR through the archway back towards the kitchen. Then looking towards the big bay window with the backyard view. And then from that table towards the kitchen and dining room hallway.

It would help us to invision your homes’ style and we can see how to work with the angled walls better.

The more you talk about the space the more I understand why you want to work with the angles. I am sure it will be a fabulous kitchen once you work out the few layout issues!

please post (maybe again) a floor plan with accurate wall measurements

How does a 75” wide window fit in a 68” wide alcove?

Can a whole floor plan be posted as well as existing photos? This is a tough one.

I probably do not have the correct wall dimensions - the images posted confound me - but this layout takes advantage of angles, and I hope understands your family traffic patterns (in red)

Mary and rebunky's ideas are much better and a good jumping off point. I too am hoping to see what SLL comes up with also. I just don't have time now to play. :(

Marylut - interesting plan but the dimensions are off. The angle corner before where you put the oven actually lines up with the back of the area where you have the bar.
The wall from the back of the current walk-in pantry to the right edge of the window alcove is only 78”. This design would leave only 16” for a pantry closet.
Note: We have a countertop microwave oven.

To Designlive- floor plan is posted previously - a little way up this thread.

Here it is again.

Have you considered something like this?

The counter to the left of the sink could expand for more prep space but I started w symmetry….

Or maybe this….

The 2nd one is interesting.
However. What I do not like is the orientation. I could not watch the movie or visit with those in the GR while cooking or cleaning without turning my head 80 degrees. Also, all kitchen mess is visible with this sideways to the GR orientation. The fridge would stick out past the wall where it is here - that depth is only 27.5”. Maybe it would work with the sink facing GR and the table on the GR side of the sink.
More counter space would be good.

@LST Thomas ive calculated this wrong before. Want to get is right next time. can you tell us what the distance is from the great room opening to the back wall?

Yes but you can look out towards that great view you have? Like SLL said you can’t have it all. Your architecture needs to be streamlined. That was an attempt to do so. Good luck!

Thinkdesignlive,

The issue I have with both your layouts is that you have directed the traffic flows right through the chefs’ work triangle or prep zone. Not only would that be super annoying, but it could be dangerous.

However your design did spark an idea, I hope you don‘t me using your drawing. I moved things around and came up with this.

(eta: you might need your child to climb up on the island to clean the middle for you! 😉)

This is the island I had in mind as the inspiration.

I modified it for a different seating arrangement. I had to slide the table part down toward the window more to allow adequate space in front of the drink and coffee bar. Bar sink added for making coffee, blended drinks, hand washing, ect…

I was going to have the ovens placed straight in line with the countertop, but then I decided to try it angled. That way it would sort of balance with the angled pantry wall.

Sorry I had to lose the walk in pantry. Though a shallow reach in pantry can hold just as much. It actually is better in a way because it is more accessible as you cook since you don’t go through a door which you must open and close. Well unless you keep your pantry immaculately organized and don’t mind leaving the door open much of the time. A reach in pantry is also easy to see everything at once since things don’t get buried behind the front stuff.

Oh and I changed the door to bathroom (again not sure that is feasable) because that entry from the dining room hallway was looking very narrow in this plan. I like how it opens up nice and wide though after the first few steps.

Use away Rebunky….I like it! I like it way better than a carbuncle pantry in the corner and an awkward island.

Thank you thinkdesignlive!

It is so wonderful when we can all unite as a group to help others!

I love how we can take bits and pieces off everyones’ different ideas, mix them together to hopefully help the homeowner achieve the best kitchen layout they possibly can within their constraints.

Of course there is no such thing as the one and only perfect kitchen, just principles that can help guide us in a direction that functions for the way that person works in their kitchen. I see something I like about everyone’s designs so far, including the original KD’s! 💕

I agree^^^

Here is a wild thought for when you need extra seating.

My brother had a convertible dining table similar to this one.

It is very narrow when the leaves are folded on top. Maybe somrthing like this could be in front of the window bench? It would be like a comfy little breakfast bar. I could see myself leaning back reading with my coffee or tea next to me on the narrow table. or flipping down just one side for casual dining using the bench.

Then whenever you need more seating for company, you can flip both leaves down and maybe move the two bar stools over to make a table for four?

Depending on if the isle would not be too blocked, you might be able to make it work as a permanant set up too. I didn’t do the math.

I am sure you have a little wiggle room to play with the island size to make the isle width work though. Just thowing out ideas as they pop in my head!

To SLL : 198” is the distance on your line.
To Rebunky: beautiful inspiration photo and some good food for thought. I also like the balance of an angle at each end of the long wall - balance is important and there is a lot to be said for symmetry. I would still move the ovens out of that angle - I have that oven set up now and a lot of space is wasted. I would try putting a cornered counter space there or pantry closet there so all corner space is utilized. And then put ovens to the right of that. Your inspiration is a nice blend of elegance, Traditional and modern - that is me and the look is good. Not sure if this island design fits yet, but it’s nice and I will look at it. Not sure what to do, though, about so much in a very full pantry if I lose it - Pull outs don’t hold near as much as walk-ins. I have a LOT of various cake pans and tools and things like a big salad spinner and big pots that need a home. The bathroom idea will not work unless I remove a small angled wall behind the vanity and also change the vanity in the powder room because that is now cornered and there is no room to push the wall in at the doorway because the door almost hits the vanity side as it is. I don’t see any advantage to squaring off the kitchen corner - no more space is really gained for the work and expenses involved and some of the architectural interest is lost. I know rectangles and squares are easier to work with but that squaring off can them make rooms more architecturally boring.
I very much appreciate the ideas here on this forum, but notice that most kitchens are basically the same and I have always been a bit outside the box of group thought.
Thanks for your help and input.

PS Rebunky, may I ask if you can share a link to the island you used for inspiration and posted a picture of earlier? I’d like to read and/or see more on that, if there is any more. Also, the convertible table is a good idea.
And thank you for being so kind. Others have not been nice, and those comments have been unhelpful and very disheartening.

Forgive me if you've already explained this. I've sincerely tried to follow along closely.

Why are you changing the layout at all?

As I look closely at your current layout, it seems it already ticks all your boxes the way that it is. I can totally appreciate how your current kitchen works well set on an angle that gives you a great view from your sink; how fantastic to see into the great room as well as through the nook.

You think rectangles are boring and don't want to square off walls, so I say fully embrace the angles. Just do some minor tweaks to the layout you presently have. Make it all about octagons with a trapezoidal attached island. Just no triangles or shapes that have no name.

You could detach the "peninsula" and make it a trapezoidal (half-octagonal?) island, but I don't think the loss of precious counterspace nor losing the buffer around the powder room is worth having an island. Frankly, I think the whole island thing is overrated anyway --they're not the answer to every kitchen remodel.

You're probably conditioned to having your workcenters in a certain order, but I think placing the refrigerator next to pantry would be a wise move. The fridge in this location will be convenient to the breakfast table, the counter seating, and a straight shot from the great room for cold drinks and snacks. Angling the pantry door not only repeats the angle/octagonal design theme, but it's also functional; the fridge door can open easily without adding a filler and you don't have to walk through the nook seating to get into the pantry.

SLL I’d challenge you to show the chairs in that layout and I’d guess it would all be too tight. There is a psychology to the layouts as well and this one seems to say ‘I’m the cook - don’t come into my zone’…..but I’d also say I’d pick it over where this thread started.

My last stab - pick away (and I’d do one large light fixture over the island):

@thinkdesignlive I'm in no way suggesting my drawing is the perfect solution. You and I are actually on the same page; I really like your drawings and your carbuncle comment cracked me up!

I had been working on an idea that squared up the powder room creating a ~4.5' opening between kitchen and dining when I read the OP's comment " I know rectangles and squares are easier to work with but that squaring off can them make rooms more architecturally boring." Mmmkay. I tapped out.

Then I reread the thread from the beginning and realized the best layout for this homeowner is one with angles and a breakfast nook and carbuncle pantry -- basically the layout she already has.

And your comment ‘mmmkay’ cracks me up! I’ll be curious to see how this all shakes out.

I found this link for you.

https://www.houzz.com/photos/north-san-antonio-kitchen-remodel-transitional-kitchen-austin-phvw-vp~118619313

SLL,

Shoots, I was hoping to see what creative concept you might have been working on, but understand being tapped out.

It is hard enough to fit all the wish list and seating for 8-10 (island plus table seating) in the kitchen footprint, but when you add in the unmovable angled support walls, the non negotiable pantry, back door, window bench, angled bathroom, etc etc etc etc… my head exploded. 🤯

I sincerely hope it all works out!

If it helps add some levity to the thread, whenever I noodled over this kitchen and how the heck you get an island between that breakfast nook and that dining room, the 1970s ballad "Torn Between Two Lovers" was in my head on repeat. Haha!! Loving you is breaking all the rules, indeed! :-)

Using dimensions most recently posted, and your oval dining table plus counter height seating for 4 at 6’ long island. Some prefer deep walk in pantry, others prefer 12” to 15” deep pantry - to each her own.

with due respect, marylut that's a rather dysfunctional layout. Here's a 3D rendering of it:

Fridge is in bad location (it's always recommended fridges be at edges of work area for easy access), doesn't make sense to have double ovens randomly located in the middle of a valuable stretch of long countertop, and no way can 4 chairs fit at that island. I don't have time now but later I will offer an iteration on this one that may work better.

I didn't have time to do cabs up to the ceiling but see what you think of this layout. There's an appliance garage next to the refrigerator, and an under-counter microwave in the island.

Cabs to the ceiling

Once there are butts in those seats then the kitchen is bottlenecked. OP has a 43" sink - yes 43". I just don't see the island and table working here but to each his own.

Table and exterior door to deck seems squeezed, and not much room between table and 4 seater island making it tough to get to fridge and pantry for snacks

Moved triple sink to back wall, cooktop to short wall, 4’ between island and fridge.

@course411, my experience is that fridge and pantry facing each other on opposite walls behind island forces snack traffic into work area. Microwave close to fridge means few steps. True about my oven placement looking awkward and breaking up counter workspace.