I like the placement over the counter L including the sink and range. Those are located for task lighting and should be specc'd to provide a minimum of 450 lumens at the counter. Others should be added for any other counters including the island. Wide spot bulbs can produce the lumens. The row across the bottom is ambient lighting. 2 or 3 should be enough using flood bulbs. The fixture pictured is decorative. Figure lighting needs without it.

@dan1888 Thanks! So I'll keep the one at the sink even if we do decide to do the sconces. The short little hallway from the garage door is so dark so that is why I have two there. But I can probably lose a couple more on that run. Maybe I'll add another one (or two) on the island/edge of counter.

The 2 lights at the island should be positioned above the countertop, just like you have them positioned above the perimeter countertops. That's workspace, and it needs the same kind of light. I think that's what dan1888 said already, but I'm not sure whether I understand him correctly.

If you don't use pendants at the island, then I would add recessed cans to replace them, on their own switch. We don't have pendants at our island yet, and I do wish we could turn on some gentle lighting there without having to light up the whole kitchen.

Regarding undercabinet lighting, I love ours and we have polished quartz countertops with LED strip lighting. You can see the reflection when you stand right over the counter but take just a step back and you don’t. I don’t find the reflection bothersome and in fact I notice it so little that I had to go in and turn on the lights to find out if there even is a reflection. Definitely recommend if it’s in your budget.

Btw, these are in a channel with a diffuser cover. The glare was way more noticeable before we put them in the channel.

@mcarroll16 Yes, I'd probably have two (three maybe?) recessed at the edges of the island. And if we don't end up doing pendants, do two or three centered on the island. And definitely will have each area switched separately. I'm so torn about the pendants. It would be nice to have something decorative there, but also nice to have it open.

@Carrie H Thanks for sharing your pictures...looks great! Do you happen to know the brand lights and channel/diffuser you used? Do you have recessed lights along edges of counters as well? I'm thinking if we did the under cabinet lights, we would just have the recessed in the aisles between the counters?

I think the drawing grid is set at 9.283 inches or something like that. Some comments:

- Island: I think you have 5 doorways into the kitchen, yet, it doesn't look like there is a frequented position where you can get a broad perspective to take in the island with respect to the entire space, where you could see decorative island lights and relate them to the whole kitchen design. And there are a lot of cabinets on every wall and nooks for doorways, so that makes the space feel like a lot is going on with all the details and shadows. So, just recessed over the island may be a better solution. If you want a jewel while you work, then choose a pendant that is more transparent than a solid shade or complicated gadgetry (e.g. studio light style) - maybe even just one wide hanging fixture rather than 2 pendants or 3 mini-pendants.

- Sconces: The term is really just a wall-mounted light. So I differentiate the term to represent that it is mounted more at eye-level on the wall, and decorative more than function. In your case you do not have the room flanking the kitchen window for sconces.

- Recessed placement: A tad too many. I assume you will be using 4", 700-900 lumens? When counters, line them up right over the edge (2" play either side of that line). When full depth wall cabs, 12" away (but a little more play with those) - no need to center over the aisles here. Doorways fine, you try to combine the cabinet lighting to cover those areas when you can make it work, if not, then put them there.

- UCL: they will not be task lighting here, just supplemental in a few spots. LED tape with the right channel style can mount perpendicular to the counter to light the backsplash, which lessens the reflection on a highly-polished counter. Since your cabinet layout does not really showcase a consistent backsplash around the room, it wouldn't be a miscalculation to leave out UCL.

Don't place all the light on just one circuit/switch. Use at least 2 zones and make sure you have dimmers on them.

@Carrie H another who would love details on your undercabinet lighting - I have the ikea mittled in my plan now but am interested in the tape for the size of it.

@3onthetree I appreciate the detailed info. We have 4 doorways to the kitchen, but I get what you are saying about not being able to take in the whole island where a decorative fixture would be on show and make sense. If we do something there (other than recessed), it would most likely be some linear fixture that is transparent. Of course, I have not found one that I love yet. So maybe we stick with the recessed and be done. I can always have them rough it in for later if we change our minds.

The sconce/wall mounted fixture would be above the window. There is currently a soffit there, but I feel the empty space above needs something. We won't be taking the BS up to the ceiling. So either two wall mounted fixtures or one pendant maybe? Something like this is what I was thinking.

I forgot to mention they would be 4" recessed lights. Ok, so no recessed lights on the aisle where will have them placed along the edge of counter.

I'm thinking the UCLs will be overkill if I have the recessed lighting placed properly for task lighting. I know you said it would just be supplemental. So I think I would be ok without those.

@chispa Oh yes, definitely will have more than one switch/zone. Can you imagine them all on one switch coming downstairs to make coffee in the morning lol! I'm thinking four or five. We have five now but have a separate light over the table which we are eliminating.

Even with the recessed lights, I think you will want the UCLs. Not overkill, in my opinion. Also, if you do recessed over the sink, I would want it about 12” out from the wall (so, more centered over the sink and less behind you if you are bending over the sink).

@blueskysunnyday I guess since they would be switched separately, the UCLs might be ok. My hubby doesn't see the point of them and thinks they will just be expensive night lights. I'm trying to figure out when I'd use them vs just having on the recessed lights. Makes sense about the light centered over the sink...that is where it is currently and works perfectly. I was so obsessed with them being right on edge of counter in a line and didn't think about the one for the sink!

I've got about the same amount of perimeter cabinetry with uppers as your plan, and I LOVE my under-counter lights. That's the perfect light for early-morning coffee making. :) But for serious prep and cleaning work, the light boost from the UCL is so great. Hard to describe--it's kind of like getting the right amount of salt in your food. That extra light relieves some strain you didn't even realize you were feeling.

Under cabinet lighting is the lighting that I use the most in my kitchen. It is my choice for the most useful in the kitchen.

The older you get, the more light you will need. I'm old, so I know.

@mcarroll16 Yes, I see myself leaving them on at night for midnight kitchen visit or letting the dog out and having them on when go down to make coffee :)

@girlnamedgalez8a Do you have recessed as well? Trying to figure out when to use which lights, etc. Do you often only use your UCL? Just thinking it all through.

@iroll I hear you on that! My husband and I have to whip out our phones to use the flashlight to see menus at restaurants lol!

Lynn Lou, I often only use the UCL. I also leave it on in the evening while we are relaxing in the family room. I don't know if you have ever sewn at a sewing machine but it compares to that. You must have good lighting while using a sewing machine. I also have recessed cans but I could pretty much do without them except over my sink.

Lynn Lou - Our undercabinet strips are by WAC lighting from a couple local lighting shops. They came highly recommended on Houzz and seemed the easiest to maneuver in our space, but the transformers are expensive. We got the channels from HD, they’re the Armacoast brand. I wanted to be able to easily return anything we didn’t use and we’re happy with them.

We do have recessed can lights above our counters similar to what you have planned, but they were off on in that photo to see the effect of the undercabinet lighting. Undercabinet lighting is new to me (we are just finishing our kitchen now), and I’m a fan. I used to have darker areas, particularly in the corner or next to the fridge, that are lighted now.

Btw my husband absolutely was convinced they were expensive night lights. He still thinks they cost too much (along with everything else), but is happy with them and often turns them on because he likes them so much.

Task light is a must. In addition to task light - undercabinet lighting, pendants over sink and island - you need at least 9000 lumens in this space for ceiling mounted general lighting.

My husband and electrician went bananas with the recessed light in our first kitchen remodel. Never again. I'm just one of those people who hate the swiss-cheese ceiling effect and the lighting that is akin to holding a flashlight above your face.

My MIL just completed a kitchen remodel. I convinced her to skip the cans for flush mount drum lights with a diffuse canopy. The light is multi directional, they disappear into the ceiling color when they're off. She - and her budget - are happy with the choice.

As an example, you'd need seven of these for adequate general lighting in your space:

@girlnamedgalez8a Makes sense! I'm sure if we get them I'll wonder how we ever lived without them. Our layout is weird so we won't have long runs for UCLs. We'd have a seciton of 33", 51" and 18". And 48" if we did them on the buffet area on the pantry wall (I'm caling it a buffet but hubby is calling it a desk lol).

@Carrie H Thanks for the info! LOL about your hubby. Mine is driving me crazy. He just wants recessed lights and nothing else.

@sheloveslayouts That's a different light. To me it looks like one you'd have over a table. Not sure how it would look to have seven in our kitchen. Definitely interesting. Glad your MIL is happy with it! What are dimensions? Or do you have name or link? We currently have four 6" traditional cans in the kitchen and I hate them. We did 4" disk lights in our bathroom (with wall sconces as well) and I love those. We also have them in our kitchen at our weekend lake home and love the way they look. Whatever we do in our kitchen will be 10x better than we we currently have lol!

I don't know the dimension, I just plucked it out of a google search but recall it was 1400 lumens. If I remember correctly, when calculating my mother-in-law's lumens it was going to take 2-3x the cans than surface mounts. She only needed four surface mount fixtures in her kitchen, so I may have found fixtures with greater lumen output than these 1400 lumen things.

The upshot of all this is info is to encourage you to achieve at least 35 lumens per square foot AND insist on undercabinet lighting. ETA: pendant light over sink and/or island is task light, so don't figure that into your general light calculation.

@sheloveslayouts Thanks! I really appreciate the info.

Warning: unsolicited layout advice ahead...

I just looked at your layout. I want to make sure you're aware that your aisles are undersized. Minimum of 42" counter edge to counter edge is recommended on the working side; make sure the dimensions on your plans are from counter edge and not cabinet face or you'll end up with even smaller aisles. (This happened to me, don't let it happen to you.)

Aisles that are walkways behind counter seating are recommended to be at least 44" from counter edge to nearest obstruction. I don't know what a square represents, but keep in mind that most stools don't store fully under the counter, so those will take up some of that aisle space when not in use.

Also note... your counter seating is comfy for two people. Don't want you to be disappointed if you're planning three stools there.

It looks like you're expanding your kitchen into the breakfast nook? I might be reading your plans wrong, but why go this far with all this expense and not just switch out windows and utilize the whole space? I wouldn't let those two windows boss around the whole project if I could avoid it.

Now. Guidelines are certainly breakable. It's just best to go in fully aware rather than be surprise when your kitchen counters are installed and realize 38" aisles are tight! (Like me) However, my husband and I recently lost a total of 150 pounds together and we don't fuss about the 38" aisles nearly as much :-)

Determining lighting by a formula of lumens/square foot is not how you design residential lighting. If you want to use that for the hardcourt of a gymnasium, go ahead. Otherwise, that is just learning via Google and Youtube.

Also, there is a big difference about where the light emanates (sourced) from and the task you are performing. If you are a jeweler working on a timepiece, the light can eminate from below your eyes and the level of ambient light around your eyes is not critical (e.g. similar to UCL). However, if you are in a kitchen performing changing general tasks that vary along the widths of counters, it would be uncomfortable not to have the ambient light around your eyes (e.g. relying only on UCL for tasks). Of course, people adapt to any situation - up to the 1970s a central 9" circline fluorescent was considered adequate light for kitchen tasks.

@sheloveslayouts Yep, I am aware that I broke some rules :) The dimensions noted are between the counters, I definitely made sure of that. It is just the two of us (plus small dog and cat) and we are small people so I don't think it will be an issue. I know it's not the best layout and some people may cringe at it, but it works for us. We eliminated the 4-person table that was up against the wall on left side of drawing that was just a pain and too bulky for the space. We only entertain a couple times a year and then everyone is in the dining room. We discussed changing the windows and even extending the back of the house at one point, but we have an odd brick style that isn't made anymore, so we didn't want to mess with the exterior of the house. Plus that is the cat's window and I'm not sure he would be happy if we modified it :) I appreciate all of your input. Congrats to you and your hubby for losing that much weight together! That is awesome!

@3onthetree I was thinking about my parent's and grandparent's houses while obsessing about our lighting plan. They had one light in the middle of the kitchen and that was it! And nobody ever lost a finger lol!

@3onthetree How should homeowners calculate their lighting needs? 35 lumens per square foot from an 8 ft ceiling for general kitchen lighting has worked well for me, but i feel terrible guiding others in the wrong direction if there's a better way. Id love to know the right way. Please advise.

@sheloveslayouts

If you just use a lumens/sf calculation for general ambient lighting and stop there, the shortcomings become evident in a kitchen. Let's say you have a common 15'x20' kitchen, where 8'x15' of that is carved out for a Breakfast table. We'll use 30fc (footcandles) that IES calls for kitchen sink and stove.

300sf x 30fc = 9000 lumens

If you choose a 6" recessed can @1200 lumens = 8 cans. In order to achieve the sustained 30fc of your calculation, the lights have to be evenly spread in a grid. So in a 15'x20' space that means 2 rows with 5' between fixtures one way, 4' the other. But that places the fixtures in the aisles, where you shadow counters when tasking, doesn't line up with appropriate task centers (e.g. sink, ref, center of 36" wide upper cabinet, etc), and does not center over the breakfast table on one side of the room. Also, IEC wants 50fc for kitchen prep counters, 20fc for Dining, and 5fc for floors. The straight calculation of 30fc didn't account for those varied numbers.

So to alleviate those discrepancies, you move those cans closer to the counters and center one over the table. But now you've created hot spots on cabinets and uneven lighting across the space from such a high-lumen fixture. Fine, so you move down to a 600 lumen fixture, which calculates to 15 total cans. Even more hot spots with overlapping throws and then lighting up the open floor. It just seems like the tail is wagging the dog. And we're not even getting into reflectivity (light loss factor), or that the mass of cabinets take up part of the sf in the equation, but still need some light between the massing (the counters). The biggest fail though, is lumens/sf alone doesn't address the most prominent feature in good residential lighting - mood and drama.

When you think about lighting in a house, it is first task-oriented to a specific spot: light the vanity counter and your face; light the shower; light the book you are reading on the couch or bed, light the kitchen counter and island. Then accent things: the fireplace; a window seat; an art wall. You are not as concerned with lighting the floor in front of the couch; or the spot you stand in front of a vanity; or the between-cabinet aisles in a kitchen; or the footboard of a bed.

And since there are many doorways, windows, furnishings, and wall or ceiling jogs that affect those tasks, lighting can be influenced by the aesthetics of placement and the fixture style. This slight push/pull between function and aesthetics should not affect overall lighting, especially when lighting is layered - overhead, table set, wall mount, cabinet mount (above and below).

However, you don't need to ditch lumens/sf for ambient lighting. In the old days, we did it in a non-scientific way: if a closet ceiling light wasn't bright enough to tell black from navy, you would switch the 60W 'bulb' to a 75W. Or if the bedroom central ceiling light seemed too harsh late at night, from 100W down to 60W.

So the benefits of using lumen/sf is best illustrated in an example of a classroom or office building. If you have a 600sf room flexible for multiple desk arrangements, or 3000sf of general cubicles, then you can calculate total lumens on 40fc and get close to the number of fixtures and zero in on whether the spec of the fixture you chose is sufficient. But, you still have to verify the task lighting is acceptable by performing a photometric for footcandles at 30" desk height. And yet even after all that, at the end you adjust fixture locations based on hotspots from walls or coordinating with HVAC diffusers, footcandles be damned. So, even here when you appropriately start with a simple equation, task lighting still comes first, and aesthetics play a huge part.

One thing to take away from the class/office example is those are large, open, flexible spaces with diffused lighting levels. But as the IEC footcandle guide notes, a residential Kitchen is varied in it's tasks. The island may serve both prep and dining. You may need 80fc as opposed to 30fc as you age. And, you are not worried about diffusing the light across open space, because I can say with certainty there's not going to be any space that is not taken up by cabinets, tables, something that has a function with a task lighting need. Bring in other attributes of a Kitchen, like the drama a hanging light provides lighting up a flower arrangement in the center of a table, and sticking to lumens/sf hinders your thinking.

So what I find in residential lighting is it falls more on the creativity spectrum than engineering calcs (hence they are named lighting designers, you want a lighting engineer for precise stage lighting) - focus on the tasks - and ambient kind of falls into place. But you can back check with lumens/sf or use it to help in fixture selection. Sure, curveballs with high ceilings, soffits, vaults, galley layouts, and high-end cabinets, but for the most part residential lighting is a simple monster.

Can you label the doors/adjacent spaces? I think the Garage door is by the Laundry, but not sure. Is there an outside door next to the big cat window?

I see you removed cans in front of the buffet (is that what is on the side wall - the (2) 33"wide x 18"tall uppers). If you plan on only UCL to light the counter there they will be very noticeable at eye level.

On the island, I would not do (2) cans with (3) more counter edge cans - either only cans centered over the island, or pendant+counter edge cans. And with a pendant+cans, I understand the desire to have cans when the island is used for serious prep space, but here you have a side stool and the opposite end next to stove may be prep as well, so the island would have uneven functions with even lighting. So if you go with pendant+cans, that may help determine if you want those 3 cans on a separate switch from the main kitchen lighting (pendants always their own switch).

You added a can over the hood. Be cognizant of a shiny hot spot depending on what style of hood (and enclosure) you have.

What is the counterspace flanked by tall cabs next to ref (across from island)? Is that the main entryway to kitchen as well? Not sure if can alignment along this wall is optimal for the cabs and appliances.

If you plan on using only wafers in the Kitchen too their throw is much more broad and diffused. So they are better at ambient light than specific task lighting.

@3onthetree You are correct. Garage is by the laundry room. I added more info on the drawing.

There are no cabinets on the side wall. Here is the elevation. I removed the cans from there since the TV will be on that wall. And because I thought I needed to remove some because we have so many! But I do think think another one is needed in that area.

I agree about the island. Five there would be a bit much. I'm still torn on pendants. I found a couple I like that are just glass globes, but I found this one for over the sink that I love. Not sure having sort of similar lights in both areas? We will be eating at the one end of the island now and not sure if having pendants there would annoy us. Hubby seems to think they will. Our existing pendants are hung up a bit higher because cooktop is currently in island. We rarely ever use them.

We will have a stainless chimney style hood. I read somewhere on here (?) that the lights on this particular style don't give the besting lighting so I figured a can would be needed. But then I looked back at the specs for the one we are getting and it does have 3 LEDs on the edge. So I left it on the plan for now, but may remove it.

I'm not sure what we are calling that counterspace lol. Currently there is a desk there and is a landing zone for mail, purse, keys, etc. Hubby keeps referring to this area in the new kitchen as "the desk". And I remind him that it is NOT a desk. But I'm hoping it doesn't turn into a landing zone for those items. I plan on having a few pictures there or some decorative items.

I originally wanted a can centered on the main pantry cabinet, oven/micro, fridge and then one just inside each narrow pantry cabinet. And also one centered on door to dining room. But that seemed like too many. We have the same fridge at our lake house and it gives off plenty of light, so I don't think we really need one there. But I also think it would be weird to not have one there. What are your thoughts?

We did seven wafer lights in our 100sq ft master bath reno and I thought that was going to be too much. Now I feel we could have added a couple more in there. I'm not set on them for the kitchen just yet. But since we've used them in our bathroom and at our lake house, hubby now loves them lol.

I really appreciate your help!

Sitting at the island your back is to the tv then? The wet bar is a door and doesn't need lit? The Family Room is the main way to/from the kitchen and you have to squeeze through the corners of the cabinets - any opportunity to widen the opening? The Dining door swings into the Dining Room? Are you open to cabinet layout suggestions that @sheloveslayouts scratched the surface on?

You probably need more cans along the ref wall to match the lighting level on the other side of room.

I didn't read through the comments. Read David Warfel. Blog: https://languageoflight.blog/ . I looked at your image, and you are lighting your floor. That's a mistake. Clear glass shades = huge glare, don't do it. People get seduced because it looks good in a photo....clear glass is only good as a dimmed accent light. If you read the articles on his blog, you'll be able to make choices on par with an expensive lighting designer.

@3onthetree We will sit at the island opposite each other.

Quite often we end up eating in the family room. If we have guests over, we eat in dining room.

The door at the wet bar stays open since we use that path to go to/from FR. The DR door is a swinging door and stays open into the DR. I don't see us having to squeeze through cabinets? Currently we have a table against the side wall and we have a desk to the right when you come through from DR. We don't squeeze through that area now. Here is the layout of our existing kitchen.

Here are a couple pics showing existing desk and coming into kitchen from DR.

Cabinets are due to arrive first week of February, so no changing anything at this point. It's probably not an ideal layout for most people, but it works for us. I thought the fridge wall needed more cans, but then I thought we would have a ridiculous amount of cans in there! But the area needs to be lit well obviously.

@BC Jones Thanks for the link. I have the work areas lit pretty well with the cans being placed at edge of the counters. The pantry wall I'm still figuring out. If we end up doing pendants at the island, I'd rather have clear to not obstruct the view. We'd have cans on the work side of the island if we did them. They probably won't be used often at all and would be on a dimmer. So that is why I'm leaning toward not having pendants over the island.