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Floorplan advice on kitchen and house remodel

2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago

Hello - This post is now edited for more clarity. I already have worked with some KDs at cabinet vendors, and have had pro contractors look at the house overall and offered rough advice ("you can build here and there for this much," etc.) that has informed these plans here. I have some local advice resources as well.

I was hoping to see if the community here has better ideas about specific aspects that I can use to inform my next conversations with pros. I am under no illusions that I can cowboy everything. For more detail about us as residents of this house, I wrote a response in the comments, how old we are, kids, how we live, etc.

This is in the SF Bay Area, where all costs are high. For most people, including us, it's too expensive to just find a better house nearby; the jumps between quality tiers are too big, and supply is too small. So I have to focus on bang for the buck, and part of that is minimizing the disturbance of existing space, and which also enables us to live in the house through almost all of the work. Prefer to keep the rear yard intact also - another reason for confining work to the West side of the parcel. Prefer to not add any more square feet than we need to.

I'm asking for feedback on the plan for the kitchen remodel part (construction mid-2023), and also feedback on the second phase, the larger project, which should be done in a 2 or 3 yrs and consist of an addition over the garage (not shown, just stairs shown). Esthetics: currently very slight mid-century modern. We both like modern, and want to go in that direction.

First photo below is the kitchen and house as-is. Second photo is one new plan (with a 4th BR), and the third is a second new plan (with a family room instead of 4th BR). The kitchen in photos 2 and 3 are the same - the proposed new kitchen.

House as-is is in the first photo below. All of these are close-to-scale. This first image is graph paper, the following 2 are tracing paper on top of the graph paper, so the proportions should be close to correct.


The below photos are prospective.

New kitchen is the same in the below photos. Don't think that the table size and placement are locked - I could do a banquette in approx the same place as the table on the left/East side, opening up more walking space on the right. I think the space could work with a 3-ft wide table.

Other than the kitchen, the below images show 2 different ideas for the rest of the house:

Create a private 4th br with separated access:


Idea, probably better - create a family room, more light at the South end of the kitchen as well:




This last photo, from a cabinet vendor visit, does not show the island.

The kitchen is near-original, 13 x 9 feet, in a 1949 3br 2ba 1300 sq ft ranch. The kitchen plan I've come up with (call it phase 1 of the work) does the following: A.) Removes the wall separating the kitchen from the dining room, which we are using as an extension of the living room (We like the sense of a large space.) B.) Removes a section of that same wall that borders the adjacent living room. This allows room for a 3x5 island with sufficient clearance. The existing kitchen 'U' will be removed for the island. Sink, refrigerator and range will stay in the same places. The cave-feeling of the rear of the kitchen will be gone.

I was thinking that this island should be non-seating for space reasons, but I'm not 100% sure. We want the option of continuing to use the dining room as an extension of the living room, or maybe putting a table there someday. The eventually-expanded kitchen (see below) will also have a table, and room for a decent-sized one.

Any opinions on island size? 3x5 in the plan, but could be a little shorter than 5 feet to add more clearance at the South end. It could be longer, too - but I'd rather not take down all of that East/left kitchen side wall - I'd rather still maintain some room separation.

I considered not doing an island, but then the alternative to add work space is a peninsula maintaining the 'U', which I find really cramped. Or, annexing the dining room to the kitchen and rearranging the entire cabinet and appliance layout. (I don't see a benefit, plus more expensive.) Or, waiting until Phase 2 and adding a not-well-located cabinet against the wall across from the refrigerator to improve counter space, but that would be far from the work areas. If anyone has thoughts on the cabinet layout, great, though I learned a lot here and I think what I have can work.

Phase 2 of the larger house plan (2-3 years from now) will involve removing the rear/South wall of the kitchen (yes, I know that between phase 1 and 2 the back of the kitchen will be cramped). This will create a larger usable eat in kitchen, have good flow and allow egress to the backyard.

This eliminates the poorly-placed 3rd bedroom, which will be added back with a new main suite above the garage (the single largest value-add - the house currently has no suite) plus an additional 4th bedroom (or family room). The existing 1st and 2nd bedrooms and existing main bathroom, and most of the existing living and dining room won't be touched except floor and drywall patches/replacement.

The new 4th bedroom or family room area is where I'd like to hear some opinions. Check out the second (plan 2) and third (plan 3) images. Having a 4th bedroom in plan 2 is a nice resale value-add, but it does not seem the most effective and esthetic use of space in the second image. This plan has a new hallway created in the old garage area that connects the 4th to a new bathroom and the kitchen - it is more private. Maybe too separated? And it's complicated. Might be more expensive due to extra walls and foundation area added?

The third plan (plan 3) image shows that new rear room instead turned into a family room, and the new bathroom is connected directly with a cove so it doesn't open directly to the room. Is there a better way to do this? It's a 3 foot deep mini-hallway, figure the door would be 30 inches. If anyone has suggestions on this bath and laundry combo, great - it's about 11 feet wide and 7 feet deep. Figure bathroom as you walk in and laundry as you turn right. Maybe I should do a different Houzz post on this one.

Plan 3 has much nicer egress to rear, and could have large windows and doors. And here is an add-on idea for the third plan: has anyone here seen anyone take a room like this and add a folding wall on tracks to give flexibility to using the space? It could go where the wall in image 2 is. As nice as it would be to have a family room, we already have a large living room. I'd prefer to keep the new second story just the main suite, and not add another bedroom up there. But this plan may just be easier and simpler.

The first image is the house as-is. The second image is plan 2, and shows the new kitchen as described above plus the addition phase 2. Third image is plan 3.

4th image is of the cabinet layout, minus the island (will have all drawers plus microwave open shelf.) The cabinet to the right of the stove will be about 36 inches, all drawers. Per measurements I might have an extra inch or three to play with, but not sure.

Note that I have not locked down the exact sizing of the stairwell here, but I think I have a decent placeholder and some margin for error. Will probably be an L design, making a right turn, unless I learn of a better design. Thank you so much if you read all of this!

Comments (25)

  • 2 years ago

    I would want the kitchen island to relate to the family room/breakfast nook and not the dining room and living room / entry hall. Which is perfectly fine, those spaces become a "great room" of sorts and the family room becomes a quieter spot. Or a playroom... lots of ways to go.


    I would spend a lot of time looking at houseplans sites, paying close attention to houses that are similar in appearance, floorplan or embody what you want your home to be like in the end. This would help refine what you hope to create.

    BC Jones thanked cupofkindnessgw
  • 2 years ago

    Random thoughts.

    --I love a breakfast nook more than anything, but my kitchen has 5 windows and gets wonderful light. The nook you are creating is surrounded by walls so I would be eating in the dining room area every opportunity, which makes that sort of wasted space for me. I'd be working with an architect to figure out how to use this space better.

    --I like the family room layout much better - maybe french doors between kitchen and FR so this could be used as office, guest space, etc. This could house TV, playroom stuff, etc to keep the living room a peaceful place. Lots of value added here. 4 bedrooms are great but when they are spread out all over the place they only appeal to very certain demographics, so added value is lower. And looks like lots of wasted space in that plan.

    --master suites are desired (and clearly huge and indispensable to most people on this site), but most people I know actually living in the Bay Area with young kids and an added on basement or attic master suite distant from the kid bedrooms are not actually using it as a master suite. It is an office, playroom, etc. Yours will probably be nicer as it will be truly new, but the people I know looking for bigger houses would still not buy this one. Most would prefer master on 1st floor with nearby stairs to kids upstairs.


    Prices are coming down some . I assume building over garage will be cheaper than full second story, but I'd look at buying a new house vs second story with current build vs buy pricing (unless you're on penninsula then I've got no idea because it is super crazy there).

    BC Jones thanked lharpie
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  • 2 years ago

    lharpie, thanks for writing. Yes, I'm on the peninsula, and what I said s true. And we love living here. Another way of saying: build over something, and you must reconstruct what's below. A garage (ours doesn't even have sheetrock) is way less to rebuild than a LR or bedroom. In my town of small houses, I have seen quite a few low-cost 2nd story rooms built around here (done years ago) without bathrooms: not good. I've also never seen a suite not being used. I've heard of parents wanting to be on the same floor as kids, but not of wanting an opposite arrangement - here I think it would depend on the house. Here on the peninsula, people accept compromises except at the top tier - currently I'd put low rung of top tier at high 2ms+. I've studied comps and talked to realtors also. The new eating area in the reconstructed kitchen won't be dark, and will have 2 walls with open ends, and both ends near large windowed areas (except maybe with the 4th BR plan - I might need to add a skylight. Yes, the temporary kitchen seating situation will be closed-in, though - that's what we're living with now.

  • 2 years ago

    Who lives in the house? it sounds like you clearly want more space but are pretty fuzzy on what you want to do with it. i have nowhere to expand to (other than cost prohibitive up!) but i can tell you exactly what my list of wants are (ie 2nd full bath, hobby room, pantry upstairs, last is family/play room).


    i’m still confused my making an eat in kitchen when you could sit in front of window in dr and it will all be open. i’d almost want to keep it more closed off to have more storage and place for toaster/countertop stuff. dR could be nice visible play area if you have littles…

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    I edited the post for more clarity, I might have been confusing. Thanks to all for engaging! I find it fun, hope you do here. Re: how we live - I could go on...but I really tried to not say any more above than I needed to because what I wrote is long. I'll add more detail here: Residents are married couple, 45 to 55 with two kids younger than 10. We have thought in detail about how we live, how we use each room, why we like a given space, how natural light, furniture, etc, ages of children now, future needs, aging in place, possibly a future where an adult child lives here for some time in their 20s. We want a small house to feel not-small. We don't like clutter. We have an upright piano, and will forever - it makes a huge impact on space decisions. We don't want a dedicated TV space - screen locations are low-priority. We want natural light, we want reasonable utility from the kitchen (what we have is terrible...any improvement would be great.) including pedestrian flow. We want flexibility to use the DR as not a DR, or to change our mind later. We do not have dinner parties, but would like to be able to have 5 people over and have it not be a PITA. We like open plans visually, but we do not want too much noise. We want egress to the rear from the house - it's a design problem with the existing house. We don't have outdoor dinner parties, but during the day we like to transit often. We both work at home, but need minimal work spaces to do so - we can work on couches and at kitchen tables and in the corner of a bedroom - so no need to build a dedicated office. In warm months one of us works in the garage sometimes. We anticipate our kids become massive noise generators in the near future. We anticipate letting kids also hang out in the garage later in warm months, will throw a couch in there. Many people here do! I could go on... I already know price ranges for everything discussed.

    I was hoping for specific suggestions. Mark Bittman - btw, if this is the real Mark, if you are transitioning to being a high end kitchen design consultant, that seems like an amazing idea to make a lot of money! You will do great. But you don't mention anything specific - what is duplicated? Of course I'd love to drop 10k-20k right now on a pro. Not gonna happen. And so many are not that good anyway. (I had a friend, a good cook interview several KD's - didn't like any of them. Did his own design - it turned out great.) . I have already gotten pro input on the kitchen cabinet plan from 4 different cabinet places. I have had 2 different pro interior designer friends look at these plans and they say basically, "not bad. I see your constraints. I might do x instead of y here instead,. Too bad you don't have 40% more to spend, ha ha!"

    It's fun to be in the Bay Area and get to look at pro jobs. I look at houses for fun often. I have seen so many "pro" designs that have obvious flaws and compromises that would not pass muster with design purists.

  • 2 years ago

    Can you post a measured layout of the existing conditions? These are puzzles I enjoy tackling. At first glance if your concept diagram is close to being a scaled drawing, your new dining area is going to be very cramped, possibly to the point of being non-functional.

  • 2 years ago

    Thanks, course411 - yes, it's close to scale, unfortunately, about 10 feet wide give or take 2 inches. Assume you are referring to the extended-kitchen diagram, with the possible long oval table drawn in. Yeah that's a kitchen. I forgot I had an idea to do a banquette there for that table, which would open up more passage. Maybe I'll add an image or a note. I think I could live with a table in the center of a room like like as-drawn if the table were 3 feet wide, which I don't mind. It's common for the old small ranches around here to have to use the dining room also as a transit way to other space behind it. It's suboptimal, and many people here will probably revolt, but there are so many compromises unless you want to add an extra $100k to one's plans.

  • 2 years ago

    I wouldn't let the "large trees" dictate the overall plan. Any construction within the drip line of a tree could prove fatal anyway. I realize removal of the trees will likely make your patio area awful on hot days. I'd try to create a plan with the public space on the North-South axis, open to the south facing back yard.

  • 2 years ago

    Do you absolutely need a 2nd bathroom on the first floor? And for laundry, is a laundry closet sufficient or do you require a dedicated room?

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    I've been noodling over your house plans and I think the biggest obstacle to an efficient layout is the location of the front door way over on the left side of the house. Assuming your front porch is covered by your roof, I played around with what you could do if the house was squared up at the porch and the front door moved toward center.

    We have a small-ish home and no matter how I sliced it, adding a stair to expand up or down was a gigantic waste of space unless we went as big as possible. SF is a unique market, but in my metro area it seems additions over garages have a lot more DOM (not to mention the front elevation looks ridiculous).

    I don't see a cost/benefit of adding a space above the garage. Just maximize the footprint you have, add on a master suite where the patio presently is and insulate/improve the garage to use as a flex space as needed.

    Here's my quick take on your house. (I did a cut/paste from a popular builder's plans) Sharing in hopes that it sparks more ideas for your family.



    BC Jones thanked sheloveslayouts
  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Thanks again to everyone. Course411, we could handle a laundry closet. Of course it would be nice to have a sink nearby...that's the beauty of combining the bathroom and laundry. There are plenty of nice examples on Houzz. But it would be very nice to have another bathroom, at least a half bath, because we'd like to be able to have guests more. Right now we really have 1.5 baths (it's actually 2, but the 2nd shower only I use).

    Sheloveslayouts - your work is nice. I once thought a little about this but in the end I believe this would cost 30% more than what I've been thinking, and definitely require move-out, which adds $50k-ish. I will ask, though. BTW, the rear trees are Western Junipers and are very vertical - there will be nearly no overlap with dripline. They've been there decades and have not hurt the existing foundation. Have to clean needles already and I can cut them back. Do I think over-the-garage is ungainly? Sure. Does that matter in my market? No. One recently sold for a great price. It was well executed. And I can learn to live with it and even like it. For a great over-garage modern treatment, google Propel Studios overhang ADU. And for inspiration to see a modern box added to a ranch, check out this amazing house in KC: google modern with a side of ranch. Now, my house won't come out quite as good as these, especially KC, but it can be OK.


    EDIT - I should have mentioned before that we like modern, and this house has a slight midcentury feel, and we intend to emphasize that. Which also is an asset in this market; modern is good here.

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    *** The family room closet could instead be a shower for the adjacent half-bath if it is important to you to have 3 full bathrooms.


    *** I know you are managing costs but I would strongly consider building two bedrooms + bath over the garage/family room, and convert the downstairs BR and bath into a master suite. In such a reconfiguration you would have room for a proper laundry room, and you would increase resale value quite a bit in the process.

  • 2 years ago

    "Mark Bittman - btw, if this is the real Mark, if you are transitioning to being a high end kitchen design consultant, that seems like an amazing idea to make a lot of money! "

    @BC Jones - I think you were being sarcastic, but just in case, or for others reading here who don't get it, of course that is not the real Mark Bittman. I guess the celebrity impersonation is harmless enough as long as they do not start asking for money to support their "charitable cause", or say "invest in this, I did!", or post links to malware sites. It's the internet, and this kind of celebrity impersonation happens all over the place - not so much on Houzz, but on rare occasions on Houzz too.

  • 2 years ago

    course411, thanks, I never thought of that stair placement, and will consider, that's helpful. Is that staircase sizing accurate? I had been budgeting about 15 feet of horizontal run (8 ft ceilings), but if you worked the precise detail out I can use that info in playing around.


    If you were my builder and we were doing iterations, and everything else checked out, the one thing I'd ask for revisions on would be how the rear/South end of the kitchen is just like it is now...nearly completely confined and dark. Maybe that stairwell could be rotated,. Kitchen here is not really connected to the rear. Or, it could be opened further to the LR. I keep getting to the point where I think that anything substantial beyond my ideas quickly gets me into thinking it's pointless. I walked into a neighbor's smaller (inferior) house yesterday - she just started construction. Completely wiping her floorplan, down to studs, adding an L extension in the back to make a 3/2. Did you see sheloveslayouts' work above? A friend did a full-down to studs remodel with a different model house, but similar size, and he went with a basic plan just like sheloveslayout's. He now says considering the complexity, he would have done a full tear downh. But overall I can't see how a full floorplan wipe plus move-out is less than an additional $175k here. I could be undershooting. BTW I can get my kitchen done for relatively low cost, but have to go with licensed mainstream company for any addition, permits, etc.

  • 2 years ago

    M Miller, I was serious. People like Bittman don't actually make much money writing for newspapers. He tried a startup in SF not long ago.. I was under the impression he was looking to do new things.....and consulting with rich people (I am not, hah) about kitchens, and letting them hang out with him....I bet he could make a lot of money, if that was his goal. But those drive-by, "yeah what you have done stinks, hire a pro, I'm not saying anything specific, I'm imagining you have zero thought process behind your post and I'm not going to ask you questions" posts don't help anyone.

  • 2 years ago

    People like Bittman don't actually make much money writing for newspapers.

    While I don't know Bittman's personal finances, I doubt he is relying on newspaper journalism for income. He is a best-selling author of 30 books, which should provide a good amount of money. And according to Wikipedia, he is a regular guest on TV shows like The Today Show, and as a judge on the Food Network series Chopped. Certainly kitchen design can make a good living, but not the kind of money you get from authoring 30 books and appearing on network TV shows (except for KDs in the top 1% like Mick De Giulio and Christopher Peacock).

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Hi BCJ, yes the stairs are accurate. Here's a version that rotates the stairs and def. gets more light into the kitchen area.

    The tradeoffs: no half-bath; laundry in an awkwardly placed closet in the family room (could play with this); no connection between upstairs BR and downstairs BRs. But of course it's about your priorities and what makes the most sense for your family, how you live, what kind of ROI you need, etc. :)





  • 2 years ago

    Another option - straight staircase, open/contemporary design





  • 2 years ago

    course411, that's great. By the way, what application are you using to generate the drawings and images? The open staircase is really a statement, that's the kind of thing that would make certain buyers swoon. For functionality I think the U version of the staircase from six hours ago is my favorite, but the straight one is more dramatic. And it could add a large pool of light with a skylight of some kind at the top....the few extra thousand for that would pay off if I was going to sell. I think if I were designing from scratch I'd keep the bedroom connection, but I wouldn't make it a priority here.

    As the kids get older, more separation is better. For fun, you might be interested to see some of the remodel flips around here that took modest houses here and landed large results. Search for 775 Pico in the town of San Mateo. I do not know who lives there. You could just look at all sales in this town over 2.5. Not that we're gonna sell anytime soon...the long term plan probably will be driven by where our kids are as adults. So we will definitely be here 15 more years minimum.

  • 2 years ago

    Do you remember the Tuscan Trend of the 2000s? It was solidly 15 years ago. Fifteen years from now? It's unlikely that most buyers will be into the aesthetic that is selling flips today.

  • 2 years ago

    sheloveslayouts, no I don't remember it exactly but come to think of it I have seen a lot of bulky large high end houses with that look around CA. Many are tacky, yeah. I don't know what is selling outside of CA; I used to live in NY and visit so I know that market a bit, but modern has just steadily grown here over 20 years, and I I think modern is here to stay. I see it in industrial design for just about anything. Things have gotten better looking, IMO, down to hand tools. Modern is easy to implement, I think. Young people (probably mostly of a certain socio-economic class) especially like modern, they are helping to drive it. 20 years ago did young people get into that Tuscan faux mediterranean thing? Kinda doubt it. I never saw that reflected in industrial design either. Well, I'm speculating as to what "trends" really are, and it's all debateable, TV shows obviously drive it too. Sometimes trends are not temporary. I remember when 3 button suits for men came back in the 90s after a long break, and people said, it's a fad, but they have stayed.


  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    The tuscan trend was also the brown trend. I think "young people" bought brown sofas (guilty) and modern espresso cabinetry (guilty). The brown sofa is in my brothers basement and the espresso cabinetry sold with my mid century house almost ten years ago - I wouldn't be surprised if our buyer has changed it out. Brown sofas and espresso finishes aren't in big demand these days.

    My suggestion that what sells houses now won't necessary sell a house in 15 years was just food for thought. Your house is going to be great @BC Jones.

  • 2 years ago

    haha I TOTALLY have the brown sofa. I'm not sure it was popular even when I bought it but it was a stock color. I hate gray more so I'm not complaining too much. But I'm very much looking forward to when I can replace it!


    I definitely like the layouts with the stairs in the old house area making the family room bigger. I assume this will cost more money. It also keeps the table space as more of a kitchen nook area which is how I think most people would want to use the space given there is an obvious DR space. Puts the extra square footage in a place more useful and with windows.

  • 2 years ago

    BCJ, I use Home Designer Pro software. I looked at the Pico property....holy cats. Prices are truly insane out there! I thought New England was pricey, but it's nowhere near those price points. Wow. Let me know if any other design tweaks would be useful. Good luck!