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robert_brown97100

I Should Take These Cabinets Out, Right?

Robert Brown
2 months ago
last modified: 2 months ago

Looking at both of these for a GE Monogram 30” gas range, 66k BTUs total.

The Hurricane has a depth of 22” and goes up to 695cfms.

The Typhoon has a depth of 20” but goes up to 850cfms.

2” less inches of depth for 155 more cfms.

I think 695cfms are enough and those 2” of depth (aka more overhang) are more important. Thoughts on that thinking?

I can’t do wider than a 30” hood, and it has to be an under counter hood with a height no more than 7”.

If you have any more recommendations that fit that criteria I’m all ears! 24” depth obviously best.

The cabinets above the microwave should be take out, right? It’ll give me many more ventilation options and keeping them in kinda makes them somewhat useless considering ducting will be put through the cabinet anway.



Comments (38)

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    That’s what I was thinking, thank you for confirming!

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    Is it possible to add push the hood out by putting material behind it on the wall so it ends up extending 22” or 24”? I think I like the Typhoon as it seems to be much quieter.

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  • kaseki
    2 months ago

    Yes, but you will have to protect the gap fill and the wall with some sort of stainless steel panel covering the gap. Rising and expanding cooking plumes will interact with this interface in an undesirable way, but most likely the plumes will be eventually captured and contained. More elaborate angled structures may be helpful.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    @kaseki any recommendations?


    The more I compare the Hurricane and Typhoon, the Typhoon seems to be the better heard in terms of power and how quiet it can be. It’s a shame it only has a depth of 20” which I can see being a bit of an issue with the 21k BTU burner in the front. A few reviews don’t seem to have issues with it though - I found a review and video of someone using it while stir frying and it working well - so maybe I’m over thinking some of it

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    @RoyHobbs I’m limited by the space available in my kitchen Removing an above range microwave and putting a hood in. 6-7” of height is the only hood that leaves a proper height about the range (27-28”). An 11” height hood makes it 22” above the range which isn’t good or recommended.


    I don’t have any ducting in place. The pro installer is going to have to do all of that. Here’s a pic of the space (took the pic quickly after dinner so ignore the mess).




  • kaseki
    2 months ago

    I can only recommend hoods that I have owned. I can criticize hoods that are so far removed from the functionality achieved by commercial hoods that they may fail to deliver even residential levels of performance.

    If you remove the microwave oven and the two cabinets above it, you will have room for any standard hood. You don't want the hood base lower than 30 inches or a deep hood will block your view. Up to 36 inches is possible. Given a hood of some height, you can bury the duct above it behind replacement cabinet doors, or just cover it with sheet metal (chimney).

    Where is your duct going?

    What is your plan for make-up air?

    You are aware, I hope, that the actual CFM will likely not exceed 2/3 of the rated CFM. If not, allocate time to read hood threads in this forum for insight.

    How sensitive are you to hood noise?

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    @kaseki

    Keeping the cabinets and doing an undrr cabinet hood puts the hood base at 27” and as someone who is 6’5” that would probably get annoying.


    Ducting is whatever my technician says, but I’m assuming up into the ceiling and then a 90* right turn to the outside. 10 foot run or so I’d guess once it turns to the right.


    Make up air is whatever my tech says. Going to leave that stuff up to the pros.


    I’m aware of the 2/3rds thing.


    I definitely don’t want it to be too loud on the lower settings as those settings will be used most frequeuntly.


  • kaseki
    2 months ago

    Noise can be ameliorated by using an external blower and an intermediate silencer, if it can be fitted.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    @kaseki yes now that I can look away from under cabinet hoods, those with external blowers should help with any noise.

  • kaseki
    2 months ago

    When selecting a HVAC subcontractor, attempt to determine whether they have ever heard of make-up air, and if so, seem to understand both its purpose and the myriad means of incorporation into residences, a few of which might be relevant to your particular architecture and air flow needs.

  • Lorraine Leroux
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    If you remove the cabinets above the range you will need to finish the sides of the two cabinets you have left as well as repair and add to the crown-something else to consider.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    @Lorraine Leroux why would I need to finish the sides of the cabinets?

  • ci_lantro
    2 months ago

    Because the sides may not be finished...because the sides were not intended to be exposed. Often the sides are raw wood when they were meant to be ganged. You won't know for sure until you remove the microwave.

    You did not ask this but will offer it anyway. I removed a Typhoon hood because it was both loud and the performance was disappointing. Because of the smooth swooped bottom with no capture area, most of the cooking effluent just rolled off the bottom of the hood and into the room.

    Of the two choices, I would go with the Hurricane as it does have some capture area and has a bit more front to back depth. Which probably makes the difference in CFM's between the two a non issue.


  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    Thanks @ci_lantro! Wasn’t sure if that is what was meant, but makes sense!


    Appreciate the feedback on the Typhoon. Probably going to just go all the way now and remove the cabinets and put a hood in that I won’t need to compromise.

  • J C
    2 months ago

    This sounds like a Design Delimma or Home Decorating topic. Seems like our forum mods are lax on proper use of topics, in sub catagories. I could very well ask what type of fire place insert should I get, and place it in furniture.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    2 months ago

    It is in design dilemma

  • kaseki
    2 months ago

    @J C Perhaps we should extract two decades worth of Houzz/Garden Web hood-system and MUA-system topics and shove them into a HVAC forum, or the Heating and Air Conditioning forum, while purifying them of any mention of the appliances they serve or any aspect of kitchen integration other than installation. /sarc

    May I suggest instead that hoods and supporting components are topics that highly depend on integration into both the kitchen space and the air conditioning space, and which have performance goals that depend on the cooktop parameters and cooking styles. It is failure to recognize that kitchen ventilation is a kitchen systems topic that leads to "last-minute" questions here about what hood to buy for an almost completed kitchen renovation.

  • 3onthetree
    2 months ago

    J C is some sort of spammer. When not copying reviews as a post, he deposits the very same comment in all the threads.

  • Buehl
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    @J C ... this thread absolutely belongs in the Kitchens Forum -- it's discussing a range hood that goes in a KITCHEN and the design needs around it.

    The "Design Dilemma" is a Houzz-specific forum, not one of the very useful Home Forums that were originally GardenWeb. Stick with the Kitchens Forum if you have any questions about the Kitchen -- there are more knowledgeable people here.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    Thanks for all the feedback, especially @kaseki!


    We'll definitely be taking the cabinets out and doing a hood and ducting, but decided we're going to put the GE Monogram range in first and then do the hood 6-12 months after as the cost and construction of doing the hood is more of a process compared to just installing the range. The recirculating fan under the microwave will do it's job (with frequent cleaning of the filter) and opening the windows when we need to. Moving into a new home comes with a host of expenses and considerations and you all know and getting the range settled and in place is one of our first priorities. Will be easier to go about putting the hood in while we're living there.

  • kaseki
    last month

    When hood-installation time arrives, I suggest pulling the range to provide working space and to protect its surface. If the floor is delicate, 4 ft x 4 ft sheets of 1/4-inch hardwood plywood may be obtained for sliding/rolling appliances around the kitchen.

    Robert Brown thanked kaseki
  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    @kaseki is it possible to tell if the material behind the range is heat proof? Is tile enough? If you look at the picture above, the back of the range has knobs so it was never a concern. The tile does extend behind the range knobs so it’s definitely there for when I put in the Monogram. Thanks for any insight!

  • kaseki
    last month

    The requirement is to meet the installation guide's directions. If the range has a riser, then likely it will be safe with "combustible" walls (which are most of them). But the directions will say whether the wall (all the way through) has to be non-combustible, or just the surface. Download a copy of the installation guide for your new range and report what it says. Also let us know if you chose "island" trim.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @kaseki when this says hood, an under microwave recirculating fan counts as a hood, right?

    It says ceramic tile is ok, unless I’m reading it wrong.

    I haven’t seen any trim options so assuming it’s coming with whatever it comes with.


  • kaseki
    last month

    From a ventilation POV, a microwave recirculating fan is rather minimal. I think the intended requirement is to have metal there if combustibles are lower than 48 inches, so in that respect the microwave oven counts as a hood.

    The microwave oven has to be rated as over the range (OTR). It may have its own requirements. You wouldn't want the gas flames to slag the control panel or melt plastic trim.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @kaseki thank you! The mircrowave/fan was installed with the current range so it’s definitely gotta be rated as OTR. Absolutely not the best solution, but better than nothing and a good enough to get the range installed and provide something for the first 6-12 months of living there before we get around to a proper hood.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    @kaseki when calculating the BTU output for a range when considering a hood, do you count the oven BTUs? GE is telling me that a OTR microwave/fan combo couldn’t work because the total BTUs exceed 66, but they’re counting the oven and broiler BTUS in that. I thought it was just the range top total BTUs that matter in making this decision.

  • kaseki
    last month
    last modified: last month

    BTU to CFM rules of thumb come from commercial kitchen configurations, which typically address cooktops. In any case, I am a proponent of the Greenheck method, with some padding to compensate for limitations of residential hoods. https://www.tagengineering.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/KVSApplDesign_catalog.pdf

    I will only note here (search my comments elsewhere for more detail) that I recommend 90 CFM per square foot of hood entry area, and due to pressure losses this requires (roughly) 90 x 1.5 = 135 CFM/sq. ft. of rated (zero static pressure) blower performance.

    Bottom line is that residential hood containment depends, inter alia, on the velocity of the cooking plume, and this depends on the cooking temperature along with hot gas combustion product velocity, where applicable.

    Also note that plume portions not overlapped by the hood entry aperture will generally not be captured.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    @kaseki sooooo does the BTU of the oven or broiler matter? 99% sure the GE customer support person is wrong

  • kaseki
    last month

    First, the hood is rarely large enough to encompass the plume that spills out of an oven when it is opened. Second, the BTU heated oven effluent is very transient, at least with modern ovens that insist that broiling be done with the door closed. Third, the BTU of the oven is not involved in the BTU rule because it never applied to it. Why are we discussing BTUs? Plume velocity and plume volumetric rate and plume overlap are what matters. Read the first dozen or so pages of the reference. And be sure you have MUA.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    @kaseki only asking because GE was telling me that the range I was looking at had 107 combined BTUs and therefore couldn’t work with an OTR microwave because it exceded 66k BTUs. However, the burners combined add up to 66k BTUs so it should be fine. Adding in the oven and broiler completely changed the specifications. Like I said, pretty sure they were wrong. Was just double checking.

  • kaseki
    last month

    Somehow I'm not successfully communicating here.

    Forget BTUh for the moment. Your OTR microwave may be insufficient for just one burner operating if you are cooking with hot oil or grease (wok cooking or searing, for example). What is the capture area at the base of this microwave oven,* and what CFM does it claim for its fan? What fraction of that is actual flow rate through the unit and out to the house exterior. How is it ducted?

    Looking at it another way, it is unlikely that any OTR microwave oven's adjunct ventilation will provide capture and containment of effluent from an oven and broiler below it, so that function is not normally counted. There just isn't enough room for an adequate fan, or adequate filtering, or adequate ducting in the MW oven assembly. Any cooking more vigorous than boiling water or simmering bacon is likely to have its effluent only partially removed from the kitchen air.

    Serious cooking requires serious ventilation. Otherwise, from a ventilation point of view, it doesn't really matter what the OTR microwave oven is rated for, because it won't be successful at ventilating the cooking plumes.

    Alternatively, if GE's comments are based on BTU rates that the MW can thermally resist before being slagged, then I have no additional information to provide.

    --------

    *This very likely will be the area of the mesh filters that are often used, flush with the bottom with no sides to trap the reflecting plumes striking the assembly base. However, it is the entire base that is impinged upon by the rising plumes, so capture is inadequate and containment is incomplete.

  • dan1888
    last month

    Consider an induction range like a Bosch, Electrolux, or Frigidaire among others. Some problems will be lessened or solved.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @kaseki thanks!

    @dan1888 currently have induction and it’s great. Moving to gas though. Not worried about the OTR Microwave, was just concerned with GE’s response to my inquiry. Going to the appliance store in 10 days or so to purchase the range and possibly upgrade the OTR Microwave.


    What GE sent me, mistakenly including the oven and broiler in the combined BTU while telling me their OTR microwave isn’t able to be installed over the range. It’s funny because if you include the broiler and oven in the total BTUs then none of the microwaves could be put over any of their gas ranges. No coincidence that the 66k BTU cutoff is also what the 30” Monogram burners add up to



  • kaseki
    last month

    Normally, the full oven BTU output is not impinging on the microwave. The text in the image above leads me to believe that you can indeed damage the microwave with too much heat input. I also believe that putting a electronics device over an array of gas burners is asking for trouble, or at least reduced MW lifespan. Perhaps if the MW base were about 30 inches above the cooktop it would be high enough. We can be sure that the air flow it provides on its own will be too low to protect it when the heat source is close.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @kaseki GE literally made these microwaves to pair with their ranges. Plenty of pictures out there with the microwave above their gas ranges. I guess I’ll find out more when I go to the appliance store.

    I read it as you can damage the microwave with a gas range IF you exceed the stated BTU limit (66K), which I won’t be doing. Once again, no coincidence that the high end OTR Microwave limit tops out at 66k (the same as the Monogram range) and the one below that tops out at 60k (the same as the Profile). They’re made to pair with eachother.

  • Robert Brown
    Original Author
    last month

    @kaseki got confirmation from GE at they were mistaked snd the OTR is completely fine above the range. So that’s a relief.