Commercially available 5.1.1 mix?
Cassie (8b Southern AZ, high desert)
last year
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popmama (Colorado, USDA z5)
last yearRelated Discussions
Permatill in Al's 5:1:1 Mix...
Comments (3)I looked at Permatill once & I think I excluded it (for myself) based on its high pH and large particle size. I can't imagine your not being able to find a source for perlite in 4 cu ft bags. Any greenhouse operation that does their own rearage will have a source. If you bet me a dollar, I bet I can find it for you within a few miles of home .... from MI. :o) Check the online yellow pages for greenhouses in your area & call a few. I bet you find it. ;o) Al...See MoreAlternates for Al's Gritty Mix and 5:1:1 Mix
Comments (9)I'm just musing here & not being snippy, but I think that the 5:1:1 mix performs significantly better than peat based soils, and remains structurally sound much longer (4-5 times longer, based on all other cultural conditions being equal). The gritty mix is even better, providing greater aeration and lasting indefinitely. I'm not saying that to promote what others refer to as 'Al's Soils', only to illustrate that soils that are highly aerated and structurally stable are much preferred to peat/coir/compost-based soils for the results oriented crowd. I'm able to say this based on the hundreds of people at GW and other sites that are using these soils and some fertilizer recommendations with a degree of success that has them saying they left soils like MG or other peat-based soils and will never look back. There is a crowd that wants to make things easier (these soils are much more forgiving and easier to grow in) and appreciates the idea that their plants are growing at closer to their genetic potential. Then, there is the group that feels that what they are using is 'good enough'. I have no quarrel with how folks establish their priorities, but what I usually hear, and what I'm hearing above is 'it's too much bother'. I never try to coax anyone to use "my" soils. I only point out the considerable benefits of higher aeration and greater durability and let others decide. I respect your decisions, but at the same time I can point to the fact that what's easier for the grower and what's better for the plant are often mutually exclusive. In this case, there is an inverse relationship between effort and results, but it's not as great as it seems. Yes, there is some effort involved in finding the ingredients and making the soil, but part of that effort is negated in the fact that healthier roots make healthier plants and healthy plants are less susceptible to insects and disease, and are more productive or prolific. Include the fact that root rot and soluble salts accumulation (especially for houseplants) is something you would have to work at to achieve, and you've got a pretty good case for abandoning the heavy soils. In the end, it always almost always distills to an individual decision. Is the perceived gain worth the perceived effort. Some answer with a resounding yes, and others are not so sure or unwilling to go through the trouble. I respect any one's decision because my part in trying to help folks ends with trying to provide the best science I can so they can make up their own minds. However, if the soils didn't work considerably better than conventional soils, I'd have been handed my head long ago. ;o) Take care. Al...See MoreAl's 5:1:1 Mix vs. Al's Gritty Mix for Tropical Fruit
Comments (5)Yes you can, and in the short run 5-1-1 in may actually perfom better than the Gritty mix. But it will wear out quicker (break down) than the gritty mix. I tend to think of annuals going in the 5-1-1 mix, and perinnials in gritty mix. If you are going to be up-potting in a couple of years go with what you have. Either are a better choice than most anything you can find in most garden centers. Gritty mix makes future repots a dream, tip the pot over and you have bare roots.. Grading the pine bark is not fun, I hate it! A major concept of the gritty mix is based on particle size, larger particles have less surface area (by volume) and thus less water retention. 1/4 to 1/8 inch seems to be the optimal size, although due the screening process of pine bark and the thin strips I will let most 1/2 and under get in the mix (under 1/8 is not good either). If you are looking for Turface MVP check a local irrigation supply house, the stuff was designed for baseball diamonds so look in that direction. The dust is not good for the mix (particle size) The gran-i-grit is intended for chickens to help them digest grains. There are many other products other than gran-i-grit that will perform just as well. Look to a local farm supply house for the rock. Rock dust is not good for the mix (particle size) Gypsum is available at the big box home improvements stores. Gritty does dry out quicker than potting soil so you do need to water a bit more often. It is extremely difficult to overwater with gritty mix, that includes mother nature overwatering. Root rot is probably the number one killer of potted plants. After water, air is the most important thing you can give roots (most plants), more important than fertilizer. Gritty mix excels at this without drying out the root system. Gritty mix is heavy stuff, an advantage of heavy is the pot is less likely to tip from heavy winds. Al is a smart guy, it is such a simple concept....See MoreIs Al's gritty mix or 5-1-1 mix really any better than other mixes?
Comments (32)@Nil13 made reference to the Whitcomb 311 mix, which is an earlier historical attempt to create a more coarse potting soil for container plants. I think it is extremely helpful to read a document written by Carl Whitcomb that explains how he came on this formula by accident. Essentially what happened is he accidentally left nine test pots under a bench and everyone forgot they were there. They had successfully nearly killed all of their test plants by watering in a normal potting soil mix and the unwatered plants started to do very well. What I have started to realize is that any plant can do well in many different soil mixes, if you are able to carefully control the watering. This explains why so many people on this forum claim gritty mix is not as good for their succulents as their (fill in some random horrible soil with lots of small particles) mix. Inevitably those people are growing their plants indoors. They have enormous experience with their plant type and they know exactly when to water the plant. So that is the case of a very skilled gardener compensating for a very bad soil. What gritty mix does for me is let me grow succulents outside in very abusive weather conditions, without the plant dying. A plant can get a week of rain and it will still drain well. During Summer, gritty mix will tolerate a bit of overwatering, although you still really need to pay attention to not overwatering. Whether you make your 511 mix with perlite/peat, or with two parts Turface, or with lava and pumice, is probably in the big picture not going to be the deciding factor in whether your plants grow well or not. Success can be add with any of those mixes because the size of the particles allows the roots to breathe and prevents capillary action of water from bring the perched water table to the top of the pot and drowning the roots. Fine-tuning how you make 511 is a question of matching the plant type to the moisture retention of the soil and to the watering habit and climate exposure. Any 511 variant is going to do better than almost any commercial potting soil because of the larger particles used in the majority of the mix....See More
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
last yearCassie (8b Southern AZ, high desert)
last yearJodiK
last year
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
last year@Cassie (8b Southern AZ, high desert) Since Fafard was acquired by Sun-Gro, they have eliminated the 3 or so mixes that contained pine bark as the primary fraction of the medium. Trying to "amend" media that are too water retentive is almost always an exercise in futility. Must growers believe that as you add perlite or pine/fir bark to media based on primarily fine materials, it increases aeration, but it does not. More accurately, it does not increase aeration until the % of coarse material is so great there is no longer enough fine material to fill all the spaces between the large particles. This transition point is called the threshold proportion. If you have interest, find it here. To take best advantage of the greater opportunity a highly aerated medium offers your plants to realize as much of their genetic potential as possible, the coarse material (larger than will pass a 1/8" screen) should be north of 75-85%, which would mean the medium should be based on coarse material with only enough fine material to raise water retention to a level you are comfortable dealing with.
You can find screened pine bark at American Bonsai in FL (LINK), but the cost of shipping and screening probably raises the cost to >5-10x what you'd pay for it unscreened and local by the 2 or 3 cu ft bag; even more than 10X if you find it in bulk.
Best luck, no matter course you decide on.
Al
seasiderooftop
last yeartapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
last yearseasiderooftop
last yeartapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
last yearpopmama (Colorado, USDA z5)
last yearJodiK
last yearpopmama (Colorado, USDA z5)
last yearI purchased a soil mix from an Etsy seller that looked interesting. It was kinda pricey but I wanted to see what it was like. So I bought a bag. I corresponded a bit with the seller and he told me that he was familiar with the 5-1-1 and took his inspiration from that. Here's a picture of it.
His website is kgisubstrates.com.
Travis in PHX (9b)
last yearpopmama (Colorado, USDA z5)
last year
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