Well, the verdict is in on Moses' roses regarding black spot.

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA

last year

last modified: last year

I promised I would give a report on my roses regarding their black spot resistance, so here goes.

Remember, this year, 2022, I did not foliar spray any fungicide, nor apply any fungicide granules to the soil for a systemic approach for fungus control...nothing at all.

I cannot imagine a rose garden more beset by black spot than mine. The black spot pressure in my garden here in Pittsburgh, zone 6b, is intense every year.

I'm on a campaign of replacing all my black spot prone roses with new roses, those that I have enough confidence in through researching them as thoroughly as I can that they will live up to their accolades.

The winners are these roses. They are equal in being virtually black spot free with either no blackspot what so ever or less than 10% defoliation. No vigor loss was observed all season long.

Bliss Parfuma, Wedding Bells, South Africa, Pinkerbelle, Apricot Candy, Sweet Drift, Double Pink Knock Out, and White Knock Out.

These are keepers, but had about 10% defoliation. The defoliation did not effect their performance.

Poseidon, Apricot Drift, Popcorn Drift, Moonlight Romantica, and Quick Silver.

These experienced 50% defoliation, which greatly affected their performance.

Princess Charlene of Monaco, Dee-Lish, Quietness, Lady Ashe, and Easy Spirit, They are, however, very free bloomers if sprayed.

The completely defoliating bunch of worthless roses are: At Last, Italian Ice, and the Austin, Scepter'd Isle.

My future plan of action is to remove the complete defoliaters. Return to spraying a fungicide mixed into my Imidacloprid insecticide spray routine. I am planning to renew spraying next year, 2023, since my 12 month soil drench of Imidacloprid which I applied this past spring was a complete failure in controlling the dreaded midge fly. My rose garden is 98% midged right now. Just Apricot Candy and the Drifts, are producing any appreciable blooms.

The 50% defoliaters are being considered for removal, even my Quietnesses.

Moses

Featured Answer

MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet

last year

I'm shocked to hear you're considering removing your Quietness, Moses. Especially considering how incredibly highly you've spoken of it and gave it as a recommendation.

I live in the heart of the Great Lakes, and I get high humidity and high levels of precipitation. I'm right at the edge of where Lake Effect snow tapers off. My Quietness has always performed well and has been one of the healthier roses here, spray or no spray. Rabbits murdering it to nubbins after five years or 3' of growth to work with.

Very interesting, and I appreciate your updates and information. However, I consider Quietness to still be a top tier selection in my area.

My Gabrielle Noyelle though? Oh Lort the black spot. She is worse than any Austin I have, worse than my Pernetiana type Reveil Dijonnais (!!!). Buck naked razor shod tentacles with some fringe leaves at the tips of laterals. Upsides? Good enough most of the year, great hardiness, excellent spring bloom, and unchecked vigour.

I think in my garden, since it's not on public display, I don't mind a few nekkid beauties as long as they can still have good floriferousness, hardiness, and that vigour.

Comments (27)

BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)
last year
Moses,

Always great to hear from you, although I’m sorry to hear that midge is still such a problem despite the imidacloprid drench. But I agree, might as well mix in some fungicide if you have to spray that imidacloprid anyway!

I don’t grow Pinkerbelle but I’m always impressed by her and some of the other newer Weeks roses at the nursery. It’s their dense foliage, almost like they pack twice the number of leaves in the same space. All that additional foliage translates into some tremendous flower producing ability.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)
User
last year
Rose Midge went away completely about 3 years after I stopped applying Azole type fungicides.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked User
Related Discussions
Kordes roses verdict: excellent
Q
Comments (51)
I love the Tantau roses I've acquired so far. I have three Bernstein-Rose (the full name) bushes which are small plants whose blooms look a lot like Julia Child's. The blooms are the same size as Julia's, but the plants are way smaller. I have them located on a lower level below my two JCs to kind of echo the Julias. B-R is very healthy with dark shiny green leaves and a nice compact growth habit. It's never supposed to have much size which is what I wanted in the small spaces they grow in. I also have had two stunning Tantau Ascot grandiflora roses for a year which I have been raving about for a while. The bareroot plants took off like rockets and are always in bloom. And they are only a year old. Don't overlook Tantau. Diane
...See More
Heirloom Roses: Your experience/views/verdict?
Q
Comments (52)
I don't agree Rosefolly. VID or VI are terms, I believe, for roses indexed at UC Davis. The Florida Southern program does not use that terminology (according to what Malcolm Manners has posted on the web). There is at least one other program that does testing at least (is it Washington State??? I forget). Do they use the VI or VID labeling? Also, if a nursery has all their roses indexed, does that mean each rose must have an individual indicator label on it? And if so, why should they use Davis' terminology if the rose didn't go through the Davis system? Pickering virus indexes their roses but they have no VI or VID shown on individual plants in their online catalog. What about nurseries that received plants from more than one virus treatment program? List the Davis-sourced ones with VI and what then for the others? What about nurseries that didn't get some treated and/or indexed roses direct from the organization that had the program? Should these indirect sources be trusted that the rose really did go through a particular system (not necessarily which one is even listed as is the case sometimes with Vintage)??? But as to what you've received, with virus symptoms from Heirloom, I would ask you which rose (s) was it? And secondly when (what year approximatley)? I think this matters and is actually important to know. Was it last year, 5 years ago, 20 years ago or? Heirloom was beginning their rose mosaic virus program back in the early 1990s, and what they were doing was right there described in their catalog. Just like with any company that has a warranty on a product, that doesn't mean that the product can never have a problem, what is important is what the company does about the failures, not only as to a replacement, but also how they work to prevent them in the future. I give high marks to companies that make the effort to improve their products, and also to those that disclose how they are doing so. Heirloom I feel should be praised for taking on a huge task (with so many US roses infected with rmv), at no doubt considerable expense, when many others chose to do little or nothing (even when the market was booming). That means that various rose nurseries let places like Heirloom do the heavy lifting and bear the burden of cost of testing/treatment, while they could sit back and rest on their laurels. I think it is really unfair to criticize a business that has actively sought to produce only rose mosaic free roses when this criticism benefits the nurseries that didn't help. I have to wonder if more nurseries had a policy, decades ago, such as Heirloom's that many more roses would now be in commerce rose mosaic virus free. There could have been cooperation with one nursery testing/treating a particular rose or roses and another nursery doing others. I think if this had happened, the rose-growing public would have benefitted and become more educated. I think there would be less acceptance of virused roses and in general healthier, longer-lived roses on the market. As we've heard, from Malcolm Manners and others, roses that are clear of rmv perform better than those that are infected. How much of the difficulty in various parts of the country have gardeners had because they've bought virused roses and then been disappointed at the lack of vigor or extra care required? What about replacements needed? If sickly roses are the starting point, will people continue to buy a faulty product? Just IMHO but I think the lack of wide scale participation of rose nurseries in rmv programs has been a contributing factor in the loss of popularity of the rose as a garden plant. Melissa
...See More
Please help. I bought Rose with Black Spot today on sale.?
Q
Comments (9)
Mike, It's not that bad, IMHO! Looks really nice, aside from the black spot. First, pick off all the diseased leaves only, and discard them in your household trash. Then plant the rose and water it in good. Don't get the foliage wet. Now spray it with a fungicide. Do the roses around it, too. Immunox or Bayer work very well. Follow up on a good schedule thereafter, very important. You may see disease free leaves show a little black spotting over the next few days, even after spraying your rose. Don't get puzzled. They will not progress any further. They were getting ready to show up next, and the spray caught them in mid stream. The black spots we see are the reproductive parts (blossoms, so to say), of the black spot fungus plants. Yes, they are plants, quite different from roses, but still plants. Enjoy your new rose. Is it fragrant? BTW, I believe Moonlight is a yellow rose? Moses
...See More
Sad Roses - Black Spot and Maybe other issues
Q
Comments (55)
louislinus You have a beautiful house. I love your gorgeous stone-walkway. The above pic. (white rose) has a green rose slug. Rose slugs (sawfly larvae) infest roses in poor-drainage clay. You have lots of Walker's low blue catmint, which thrive in heavy clay here. The second pic. (from the top of your post) shows lots of holes in leaves, besides black spots. I also see rose-slug damage (brownish-latticed leaves). Holes in leaves are typical of slow drainage dense clay in heavy rain. I used to get holes in leaves right after heavy rain, then I moved roses and found water could not drain fast in that spot. Roses that like fast-draining like Queen Nefertiti is most susceptible to rose-slug and holes in leaves. I fixed the soil with fast-draining coarse sand, dug out all the rocks below, and NO MORE green ROSE SLUGS. Do you have dense clay soil? If so, then poor-drainage is a problem in mid-west heavy rain. I would check for drainage: dig a hole near the MOST black spotted rose, pour a 5 gallon bucket of water down that hole. If the water doesn't drain within 10 min, any rose would black spot in that area during heavy acidic rain. pH of rain in Midwest area is 4.5. With my 134 varieties of roses, black spot is no longer a problem once I check the planting hole for fast drainage by pouring a 5-gallon bucket of water, before planting a a rose. If the water doesn't drain fast enough, I keep digging and often I would find large stones that block drainage. High Country roses recommend digging a hole 3 feet wide and 2 feet deep. But I often dig deeper than that to check for stones. A quick fix to slow down the heavy & acidic rain is to pile up horse manure (the type with wood-chips, rather than hay). Hay is acidic, but sawdust/woodchips decomposes to alkaline. There's a poor drainage spot where I dug down 2 feet and found water .. but Golden Celebration (black spot-prone) was 100% healthy. I piled up ALKALINE horse manure (with wood-chips) up to 1 feet tall. When acidic rain at pH 4.5 poured down, it was instantly neutralized by that pH 8 horse manure. Stable here deodorizes horse manure with shell lime (high in calcium & high pH). Calcium is the best buffer against acidic rain. The LEACHING of calcium is what causes holes in leaves after heavy rain. Once the leaves are thinned out with acidic rain, they are more susceptible to rose-slugs (green sawfly larvae). I never have rose slugs in the years with horse manure, despite poor drainage clay. In the years of topping roses with horse manure (pH 8), zero black spots in raised beds, and very few leaves with black spots in poor-drainage clay. (posted plenty of pics. in Organic Rose forum). Besides calcium, horse manure has anti-fungal trace elements (zinc and copper) to thicken leaves. Pics below are my roses with horse manure, note the THICKER foliage. Decades ago I saw the same flawless foliage in a neighbor who used horse manure & same with another garden with horse manure. From that time on, I started topping roses with horse manure. I don't spray.
...See More
Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
last year
last modified: last year
Thank you for the update, Moses, any BS-resistant list is very helpful!

I can commiserate about having a high BS pressure yard. Even the most touted ones become noticeably defoliated for me by the end of the season.

This year, Plum Perfect performed the best in this regard. Then again., Easy Does did very well for a few years too until this year, it didn't anymore.

Being in a pot it probably needs the soil changed and a vigorous pruning.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
last year
Moses, getting rid of Quietness? Say it isnt so

How many of us have her because of you ?

Im glad that Bliss is a good one for you. It is a really a workhorse on my garden.

Thanks for sharing your findings.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
last year
We're all benefiting from hearing about your garden. Thank you for sharing. It's great to hear that Bliss did so well. too bad about your 50% ers. There are some great roses on that list.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
rosecanadian
last year
Moses - that is terrible to have such blackspot and midge issues. Good for you for getting rid of the worst offenders.

Paul - do you have an idea why your midge went away once you stopped spraying?
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked rosecanadian
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
last year
!!!

All Quiet (here) on the Eastern Front.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
User
last year
@rosecanadian Unfortunately, no. I can only speculate. It may have been a coincidence, but I seriously doubt it. Azole fungicides cause endocrine disruptions fish and mammals, so maybe there are other disruptions in the environment we don't yet understand?
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Kristine,

My Quietnesses are now 14 years old. Their crowns are 10" across! Maybe their age had something to do with their bad black spotting. Also, this could have been a once in a generation black spot explosion of intensity. Then too, my 6" growing tip only spraying technique of spraying for midge, which all the roses got in the past, before this year's soil drench fiasco, included a fungicide mixed in with the insecticide. I sprayed all the foliage of roses which had black spot issues, growing tips to lowest leaves. Perhaps my Quietnesses were kept black spot clean by their entire bush sprayed neighbors not spreading BS to them?

Right now I will give the Quietness bushes a reprieve to see how they respond to my planned resumption of spraying for midge and fungus.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Artist,

Thanks for your endorsement of Plum Perfect. My preliminary research on it is encouraging. Antique Rose Emporium has it so perhaps a trial in my garden is in order.

It's a beauty going by the photos seen at Help Me Find Roses.

Moses
KJ (9B, San Jose CA)
last year
Moss, so sad to hear you plan to remove Quietness. I got mine because of you and it's one of my favorites. Love it so much.

Let me add Bliss, Wedding Bell, and South Africa to my list. All good spots in my garden have been taken. Now only the place under North facing fence is left. I am looking for something very disease resistant to survive fall and winter. Also have to be very sun tolerant since that place is baked during summer.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA thanked KJ (9B, San Jose CA)
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
KJ,

Bliss, Quick Silver, and Pinkerbelle are the most vigorous of the black spot clean roses. Their vigor is awesome. Apricot Candy comes in just a shiver behind the above three, then Wedding Bells, South Africa, and Poseidon (in that order), come in just a tad less vigorous, but still strong and robust. Only thing is, Poseidon needs to prove itself to me a bit more....the bloom seems to come short in durability.

Moses
Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
last year
@Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA

Here it is now.

It grew very tall in a large container, I think it's almost 6 ft now ... but then again, I realized I wasn't pruning right to give it that bush form and keep it shorter.

I am ready with the newly acquired knowledge for next season. That and avoiding the borers :)

The color is really beautiful, a deep true mauve ...and it looks like it is quite BS resistant too. I only wish the blooms were larger especially relative to the thick, monster canes it tends to develop.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Art,

Kordes roses, which Plum Perfect is, are known for making monster canes with blooms at the very tips only, when they are young. Once some age is gained, they settle down as yours should do given time.

Moses
Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
last year
Thank you for clarifying, Moses, and for giving me maximum hopes for Plum who has done very nicely this season, especially in terms of fighting BS. I hope smarter pruning will help in addition to maturity.

I did not know about the technique of cutting the outer canes shorter than the inner ones to get that bushy look. That probably contributed to Plum's awkward look during its first and second season. It sent one enormous tall cane on one side and all other canes except a thin and short one are on the same side, making it look asymmetrical and leaning.

Hopefully next year it will behave. No matter what, the bloom color is irresistible.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Monster Derelict Cane?=The Exuberance of Youth

How to prune a bush to well tailored proportions? It's somewhat like a grade school group photo of a large class...the shorties are in the front and tall kinds are in the back.

If you have a lot of equally strong canes growing in all directions after pruning all dead and weak canes to the crown, along with deciding what to do about crossed growth, limit the bush to no more than 5 canes. One will be left pointing straight up, the other 4 will point north, south, east, and west. Ideally choose those that grow out at 45° angles. Knowing the above bush rarely occurs, we do the best we can with what we have, balancing left to right and front to back.

Keeping a badly located thicker, more robust cane is preferred over keeping an ideally placed but sickly, thin cane.

Moses
dianela7analabama
last year
Thank you for reporting how all these roses did in your yard. I am always doing research on this topic and waiting to hear of any roses grown successfully no spray on the east coast or any other area with high blackspot pressure. I will be adding them to my list to try. Sweet drift is also one of my top performers here. I also have plans to try the white knockouts.
Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
last year
@dianela7analabama

I follow you with great interest - you are one of my references - as I am rather close by (North Atlanta).

I love my Coral Drifts, best performers in the yard by far. When they say "color" and "coverage" they mean it; but I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the Sweet Drifts instead. They look so romantic and are probably more elegant than the flashy corals but I wanted that splash of landscape strong color along the driveway - something visible from the street as our house is set off further back from the street compared to all others in the neighborhood.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
dianela7bnorthal,

Although your zone 7b is warmer, our black spot pressure is probably the same.

Yes, please try White Knock Out, which formerly went by the name White Out. As time progressed after its intro a number of years back, it soon proved to basically have the same black spot immunity as the others in the Knock Out series, hence the addition of "Knock," to its name.

What a self tailoring bush it is, needing almost no keeping in bounds, but keeps a classic, rounded/mounded bush form with just about no effort on our part. Dead heading will go a long way to keeping it pumping out blooms. The individual blooms are stunningly pristine to me, and if it was bred by Austin, it would be a legendary 'sophisticat,' and not just a humble Knock Out.

Moses
Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA
last year
@Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA

Do you like White Knock Out better than the Double pink? I just planted the latter this summer at the mailbox but I thought about the white one.
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
White Knock Out and Double Pink Knock Out are the best Knock Outs as I see it. All the others have one or more undesirable traits.

Double Red Knock Out comes next behind the above two because red roses are not my favorite color. I see no other difference between the two, Double Red KO and Double Pink KO, only a bloom color difference. Everything else is equal...two equally great roses with identical traits, just different colored flowers.

Moses
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Artist,

Sweet Drift can get very wide. Under ideal conditions, age, and with minimal pruning, it can get 5-6' across. It likely does surface root as it goes where limbs touch the soil for an extended period of time. Its growth habit for me is 12" to 16" tall and quite wide, as just stated above, but I keep mine at 3' across. It doesn't exactly sprawl, but its stems grow about 30° from the horizontal, not 45° or more, which would be a better trait, but no real complaint here, just an observation. It would be a great cascader if planted behind the top of a retaining wall.

The blooms are petal packed, and at the exhibition stage they are lovely. As a bloom matures further and unfurls more, the petals start to quill, which I wish it didn't do since I don't care much for blooms that quill, but otherwise, Sweet Drift is a great rose.

BTW, SD's foliage is shiny, pristine, and tough as nails, laughing off black spot.

Moses
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
last year
“I am planning to renew spraying next year, 2023, since my 12 month soil drench of Imidacloprid which I applied this past spring was a complete failure in controlling the dreaded midge fly.”

The Bonide guarantee (see: ”the 1920’s”):

https://bonide.com/about-bonide/
Sunny Mississippi 8a
last year
Moses I gave away my Quietmess to a local rose lover this year. After two years I couldn't stand the black spot, mildew, and bare naked sight of that twig. The flowers were unbelievable. The form! The fragrance! I still look at my pics and miss her. But the friend I gave it to already had one in her garden, plus she sprays. I never sprayed mine and it never forgave me. I had a few beautiful flushes each year, but know it's in a better place now. I absolutely have no regrets about trying it and I do thank you for the recommendation. I just ordered Mountain Music, so maybe that Buck rose will do no spray. We shall see!

I'm also excited to hear Bliss performed well for you. I'm always on the lookout for fragrant, no-spray roses. Thank you for the update!
Sunny Mississippi 8a
last year
I also gave her my DeeLish since I had results similar to your after two years of no-spray. Hopefully she was able to resurrect it.

I hope you have a local rose friend you are able to rehome your lovelies with this fall or whenever you decide to move them.
jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
last year
I grew Plum Perfect for a couple years moses..Growth rate was slowwww here... PP also had disease issues so had to get rid of it...

I think PP enjoys warmer temps...I remember PP responding more here when the temps soared high...

Well, the verdict is in on Moses' roses regarding black spot.

MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet

Comments (27)

BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)

User

Related Discussions

Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA

Kristine LeGault 8a pnw

librarian_gardner_8b_pnw

rosecanadian

rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)

User

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

KJ (9B, San Jose CA)

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

dianela7analabama

Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Artist-FKA-Novice Zone 7B GA

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)

Sunny Mississippi 8a

Sunny Mississippi 8a

jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Well, the verdict is in on Moses' roses regarding black spot.

Comments (27)

Related Discussions

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USAOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author

Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Original Author