considering your name.. why dont you add the hosta forum .. those are the peeps that grow things under trees .. you might still be bale to add a forum ...

maples.. then mulberry ... then poplar of any type ....

there are some with a very fibrous dense mat of roots right under the tree.. and frankly.. its hard to dig a hole.. and if you dig too many;. youll end up harming the tree ... but worse.. you will stimulate it to grow new feeder roots.. mostly in the holes you dug out ...

ken

ps : and never fert only in the holes you dug.. under bad trees... they arent stupid.. and will grow new roots where the water and fert is... right where you dont want them too.. broadcast fert if need be ...

Thanks Ken. I did edit and add the hosta forum and the perennial forum while I was at it.

I didn't know that mulberry and poplar are difficult to grow under.

I like that---saying that trees aren't stupid---they know where the water and fertilizer is! Smart trees!

I believe NHL has posted on the hosta forum and on perennials too.

Well, I must say the city’s Locust Tree drops tons of small branches and sticks. Many have leaves on and I find it is a favorite of the squirrels.

Also, my King Crimson Red Maple has tons of roots, as you can imagine. Some are right on the surface towards my neighbors house. But every time I dig (or Bert digs), we pull up copious amounts of roots. When a hosta is not doing well, roots are usually the problem.

Right now my front door bed of hostas have shurnk. Not all, but Stained Glass was small that I moved it and it actually got a second flush. Others that have shrunk are Night Before Christmas, June, Avocado, Autumn Frost, Striptease and a Noid. The Nigrecens you see was planted this year. I am thinking I will have to dig this bed out. Also, I am sure the Arborvitae is a contributor. Don’t like these 2 bushes, not in the plan for removal any time soon.

Pics:

Silver maple...always dropping something and near surface roots and sweet gum. It's those little spiny balls. Ouch.

All types of maples

I think of a friend of mine who had a flower bed, slightly above grade, surrounded by railroad ties or some such. There was a pine tree growing 15-20 feet away. The only tree close to the yard. One spring they went to dig into the beds soil and found it was congested/plugged with tree roots.

That follows what ken talked about with tree roots knowing where to find the best soils and putting more roots into that area.

Maybe the better question would be--What trees are the easiest to plant under? None that I am planting under are great. All have lots of roots and drop fruit, nuts, limbs etc. but we coexist with a little shovel and sometimes clipper pruning of roots.

callirhoe123 had Sweet Gum on their list and it would be atop mine.

My garden is flanked by two big silver maples and it's honestly not that bad. The shovel cuts through most roots pretty easily and the bigger ones I just use the pruners. All the plants seem to be doing fine, so doesn't seem like the tree is sucking up all the water/nutrients. The only thing I hate are the thousands of helicopters in the spring which have like a 95% germination rate...not sure how the Earth isn't 100% covered by silver maples :P

Maples.

Ken - what's so bad about mulberries other than the fruit drop? I have one in my Stark Bros shopping cart as I type. I've pretty much given up on blackberries so this would be a good substitute, and some of the mulberry trees around town are really nice looking shade trees. ?

Well, as far as digging any old huge Maple, but we had only one on our property and I had it taken out even before we moved in.

I have several old white oaks and hickory trees still standing around various garden areas and keeping those plants near them watered is an exercise in spending money. I'm moving many things this fall in an effort to cut watering time and to better group moisture lovers together.

Black walnut tree. The roots give off a chemical that will kill many plants under or near it.

Very little will grow under pines.

what's so bad about mulberries other than the fruit drop? I have one in my Stark Bros shopping cart as I type.

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you have acres mx.. just get one.. if you can stand to eat the berries... the kids and ex loved them ... i hated chewing on the .. nvm.... lol ..

once the boy when he was maybe 3 or so.. had purple feet up past his ankles.. purple hands up past his wrists.. and purple smeared all over his belly and face... and i walk up to him..... under the tree... and ask.. have you eaten some mulberries.. and that little xxxx looked me right in the eye and said.. NO ... im like.. ok ... lol .. im pobabably going to have problems with this boy ....

i had one back in suburbia.. and it was much more problematic with roots.. much smaller yard.. big tree.. etc ... but probably not more than any other tree ... as you note.. i hate them for a multitude of reasons other roots... drunken birds slamming into window.. purple stains on my car and siding.. stoned wasps and bees on the ground with fallen fruit in mast years.. etc ... nothing like mowing your lawn to the stink of rotting fermented fruit ... lol

ill post some pix of silver maple roots later ..

ken

My house came with a large silver maple and have not had a problem establishing a nice shade garden. It has a very upright arching habit so good morning and evening light. It does not make seeds so I dont have to deal with that. Squirrels chewinf of branches for whatever reason is the biggest annoyance.

Zero problems growing under maples......Oak on the other hand.

Well I have a poplar wood and have to say that I have no problem whatsoever,growing stuff under them. Nice high canopy, roots which do not run all over the surface (unlike beech). No problem under the oaks, either. Probably, the most annoying trees are the various locusts/robinia. (because seeds) while salix fragilis is risky. On the whole though, the most challenging, for me, has been yew. Although a lovely tree, it does that allelopathic thing, ensuring nothing survives under its gloomily interlocked branches. Not even cyclamen hederifolium, which I thought grew under anything. The greenfinches bloody love it though, so horses for courses.

Poplars are bad?

Uh oh.

So I have put together a list of the trees that have been mentioned:

Mulberry

Poplar

Locust Tree (drops branches and twigs)

Arborvitaes (cedars)

All maples (mentioned were King Crimson Red Maple and Silver Maple)

Pine trees

Sweet Gum

Black Walnut Tree

Oak?

Yew

To that I add Sugar Maple trees and Birch Trees.

Debra, definitely Arborvitaes are bad for roots. I have lots of experience with them---I have a cedar hedge!

When we write about trees, we don't mention the size of the properties we are talking about. That makes a big difference, don't you think?

zekeafroid, when you say your trees are flanked on either side of your property, I am not sure how far apart they really are. That would make a difference to how bad the roots would be. I'm especially curious because you mention that they are not all that bad.

Cearbehaill, you did exactly what I should have done---cut down a maple tree on our property before we moved in! Living with that mistake has been difficult.

Pennlake, no problem with a silver maple? Large property?

"Cearbehaill, you did exactly what I should have done---cut down a maple tree on our property before we moved in! Living with that mistake has been difficult."

We bought sight unseen and was told later on the neighbors were curious, word gets out that out of towners were coming, lol. So the new neighbors very first experience of their us was a tree crew that came in before we had barely even had our first look inside. They took out two giant Paulownia (in a small residential front yard!) that had been hacked at so badly for so long they looked like Halloween players. Also removed that enormous silver maple, a giant hemlock, and the odd oak and hickory.

Then when we did get moved in we started tearing out all the other stuff- we blew in here like a wrecking crew and rearranged everything, I'm sure they thought we were destructive as heck.

But 15 years later they stop and tell me how much better the neighborhood looks now so it ended well.

My tree removals were not mistakes. I've added more than 20x what I took down and my replacement trees will grace this earth looking far better than those awful Paulownia and silver maple.

some poplars.. will send up new trees everywhere a root is cut... and obviously you cut roots when you dig holes ...

im not sure if there are good poplars and bad poplars... but i know there are trees that arent even poplars.. but they are called op=poplars.. whats that all about.. tulip poplar.. lol

mature large pines.. its a desert under them.. and usually the soil is extremely hard.. because its so dry .. and rain usually doesnt even make it under the tree.. the tree sheds it to the edge of the canopy ... where its feeder roots are ...

ken

Cearbhaill, wow you did a lot to that property inside and out! I envy you. You seemed to know what you wanted and took action!

When we bought our house decades ago, I had no knowledge about trees and tree roots. We did consider removing one maple---I wanted to, my husband didn't. So we didn't. Then one day the city decided to put in a tree bylaw. Now we are not allowed to remove any tree with a diameter of 12 inches or more. One year I began loving gardening. It took me a while to figure out that the tree roots were invading my plants and reducing their vigor and strength.

I don't agree with our tree bylaw. I do believe that trees are important and that we need trees. I believe that we need to grow trees in the correct locations appropriate for that particular tree.

I have a river birch tree on my front lawn that belongs to the city. It's slowly deteriorating. When that finally needs replacing, the city will replace the tree will replace the tree with a city approved tree. Currently that list consists of 25 large trees and 5 medium sized trees. They used to have one or two small trees on that list, but no more.

I did not know mulberry was bad for growing plants under. As a child I liked to eat the berries and used to keep silkworm as pets. Mulberry leaves are their only food. I still like mulberry and think they taste better than rasberry or black berries. But picking them is a different thing, a lot of hassel.

I tried to grow one in our yard, by the shed, as reminiscence. It did not look good and I do not raise silkworms any more, so I removed it.

Again Maples……..dug up an old RoRoyal Standard, here’s what I found: bucket o’ roots

debra

Debra, that's a familiar site at my house, unfortunately! Darn those roots!

The back of my property has a very old cedar hedge. It is maybe up to 10 feet high. I would say it is 50+ years old. The roots from that hedge extend at least 10 feet from the trunks, maybe more. Between that hedge and my mature maple trees, gardening is difficult, challenging and frustrating. Cedar hedges are nice. But I'd rather not have a garden bed right beside it.

I also have a pyramidal cedar placed in the front yard to one side. It is growing well. Too tall now I think. It's almost 12 feet high! In front of it is my foundation plantings and then more garden. Behind it is a raised bed that is quite narrow. The roots of that one cedar reach very far. The roots going to the back go along that narrow raised bed; the bed then drops a foot and continues along the side of my house. The roots have no problem to drop down a foot and continue to invade the bit of garden I have there.

Difficult trees to grow under are:

Birch trees

Mulberry

Poplar

Locust Tree (drops branches and twigs)

Arborvitaes (cedars)

All maples (mentioned were King Crimson Red Maple, Silver Maple and Sugar Maple)

Pine trees

Sweet Gum

Black Walnut Tree

Oak?

Yew

I just found some information I noted when I went to Hosta College in 2018. Marcia Sully gave a great lecture there. She mentioned "bad" trees to garden under. So added to the above should be:

Spruce

Norway maple

Lilacs

Willow

Elm

I certainly know the answer to this and it has nothing to do with roots. Nope, my problems involve above-ground horrors and can be summed up in 2 dreadful horticultural experiences - kneeling on dessicated holly leaves or having the top of your scalp pierced by stabby roses. The correct botanical term for those weaponised rose canes - prickles - really doesn't do justice to the grim reality of doing battle with briar roses. I prefer to call them green vampirical bayonets, growing fat on human blood.

My second worst gardening accident happened when trying to feed a long, whippy cane of 'Mermaid' into the wood chipper. It caught in the teeth and centrifugal force ripped it out of my gauntletted hands (thank f*ck), lashing me across the neck and side of face like some hideous lassoo.

The worst accident involved leaning on fragile bamboo canes with all my not inconsiderable weight, dahlias and a concrete block cold frame...and cost me 2 front teeth and a neat circular scar just above my heart.

ademink, I haven't had to garden under a Black Walnut tree. The person who mentioned it, didn't specifically mention growing hosta under that tree. Juglone in the roots of the Black Walnut tree is the problem that retards growth of many plants---but not hosta.

I have a friend that has a neighbor with a mature Black Walnut tree that affects part of her garden. Over the years, that tree's roots have made their way into her garden. Plants that grew without problem in the past, now do not. I've also seen another beautiful garden with a huge Black Walnut tree growing right in the centre of it. It is possible to grow a variety of plants under that tree. Your beautiful garden is an example of that! Lovely!

After my own struggle growing under mature maples, I dream of having a property without that issue. No way would I want to have a property with a Black Walnut tree either. So if I moved, I would seriously be looking at the trees on the property and the adjoining properties. I've had enough frustration with roots! And note that: in my city, we are not allowed to cut down trees that have a diameter of 12 inches or over. So you're pretty much stuck with the trees on your property. You had better love them!

Rosaprimula, sorry to hear about your accidents. Sounds like you have experienced some awful accidents. Glad you recovered!

Too true, New hostalady - a badly chosen or placed tree can blight a garden/property.

I have always been a bit clumsy - I have gotten to be more careful now I am a bit rickety (although I still do that thing of pulling mallow/dock/thistle...and falling over on my ass).

You got a lot of spunk, rosaprimula!

On a different tangent, what about pecan trees? Not the roots, but the honeydew (what a sweet name for bug poop) that ends up looking like thick black gunk. It covers cars, driveways, and instead of being washed off in the rain it gets glued on. I wonder if pecan tree honeydew coats the plants underneath it, too. I didn’t garden back then, but I remember that it was a mess for everything else!

Before I got married and moved out of my dads house he had a small backyard with a huge norway maple on the border of my neighbors property with most of the tree into ours and I used to garden there. Nothing other than a raised bed with phyllostachys aureosulcata and aralia elata grew under it. Even established forsythias died overtime as the maple got bigger and casted more shade and suck all the water out of it. Norway maples in particular are an absolute nightmare and I suggest anyone who has one in their property to remove it or just not garden 50 ft away from the canopy line.

My current house has 2 giant silver maples and while it isn't as bad but you really have to keep up on the watering or your plants will struggle. My dryopteris crassirhizoma which are supposed to be one of the tougher ferns struggled under there so I had to move it. Pinellia tripartita, an extremely resilient plant that is almost impossible to kill also struggled to grow underneath it. We did have a bad drought this summer and I tried to keep up with the watering as much as possible but just wasn't enough. And this space is actually under the outer canopy of the silver maples, about 50 ft away from the trunk.

Also dont recommend growing under honey locust.

deanna, sounds like the pecan tree is one to avoid if one loves gardening (as we all do here on this forum)!

Heruga, regarding the Norway maple and growing under it---I agree with you that one should garden far away from the canopy line, but actually 50 feet may not even be far enough. (Note to all: the suggestion is not 50 feet away from the tree trunk!) The reason I say that is from a podcast I heard about trees and their roots and the research that was done to map the roots of trees. Robert Kourig (author of Understanding Roots) has researched tree roots for decades. He has shown that tree roots grow far beyond the tree's canopy---3 times and up to 5 times! That was a real eye opener for me! So I figured out that the Norway maple tree and its roots (that are at the far end of my neighbor's property) are actually in my property! That was a sad day for me as I thought I was only struggling with the maple trees on my property.

Heruga, we experienced the drought here too. Not sure I was able to keep up either. We will have to wait and see how the garden is next year.

What? There was a discussion about trees that would allow me to complain about maples again and I missed it? ... Well I'll just add this tidbit from the University of Minnesota, a respected horticultural school.

" Norway maple is an invasive species. It is a non-native popular landscape tree that can spread into native woodlands.

• Norway maple invades woodlands by out-competing sugar maple due to its shade tolerance.
• Wildflower diversity is reduced because it forms a dense canopy.
• Trees are spread by seed.
• Norway maple are often overlooked and confused with sugar maple.

Norway maple is not on any Minnesota control list, but it should be reported when seen in forest areas." Norway maple

We should live close to each other Beverly, then we could complain about maples trees to each other!

Our city doesn't allow homeowners or landowners to cut down trees and that includes the Norway maple. Apparently our ravines are full of them. I think the city doesn't want to allow removal of these trees because a good deal of the city's canopy would be lost. We are told the Norway maple still provides much needed shade, cleans the air and helps with storm water runoff.

This is all true. There is not a requirement here to remove them from home owners property either - just don't plant new ones, I guess. However, no one is stopping anyone from taking them down. It is important to plant new trees when we remove old ones.