Thank you, @palimpsest, maybe I'm not actually losing my mind! I would love to see examples of off-center hoods, etc. if anyone has seen one.

I should say I think the reason for the two islands was it was a way to give us a separate coffee/sandwich/light meal prep area for other family members to keep that traffic out of the main cooking and clean-up area, but it seems to me entirely possible to do that by putting the small sink, coffee, and toaster in the countertop by the fridge where I have it in my version.

The designer has now suggested putting a small countertop between oven and fridge for toaster oven, in place of the pantry, instead of moving the fridge over into that space (again, for symmetry), but then you're walking around the fridge to reach the small sink which I think would become a pain. DH uses the toaster oven constantly for light meals and cooking frozen foods, and I think this would be less convenient.

I admit I don't understand how the fridge, pantry, and ovens are "symmetrical" in the KD version when they are all different widths...I think it is just that they fill the tall wall space available between the windows.

Any suggestions for how to do lighting over an island if pendants will make it look off-center from the cooktop wall behind it? Or can I ignore that asymmetry as well?

Did you change your house design again?

The kitchens I have saved pictures of that don't have symmetrical stovetops have something else on the stove wall too (a door, the frig). Kitchens should be function over form. But I certainly agree with you that you don't want the stove and sink back to back. Minimum of 48" between the island and the perimeter cabinets.

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@Mark Bischak, Architect, only a little... It's now two connected wings. One is the great room with one office, mudroom, laundry, garage. The other is the bedroom wing. They're connected by a "bridge" which is also the main entrance. It was getting too large, and I like this better. But it meant moving the kitchen into the great room.

I like your design! Presumably the people who aren't doing the heavy cooking would use the island and the countertop west of the cooktop for light meal and coffee prep, so that's where coffeepots and toaster would go--so they'd use the main sink except during cleanup and then they'd use the prep sink?

This puts the main sink with its back to the views, though to the side there is the west view--there are no windows to the north. Frontwise it faces the pantry closet and coat closet. Fatal problem, or not really?

The prep sink in the corner is near a window but still facing a wall. Feels like one of the sinks should be in a window.

I have a pretty large pantry closet (10ft long with space for a 2nd fridge or freezer), so would you put the fridge at the end of the run instead? Or is the fridge too out of the way?

Turning the island eliminates space for the small breakfast table, but I could put island seating on the back of it facing the south views? (Although I'm not into island seating tbh.)

@kandrewspa, very helpful photos, thank you! If you're standing back from the kitchen and staring at it, you'll see the doorway that goes to the entryway. I don't know if that qualifies as another thing on the wall, though. That's where the opening above the cooktop run leads. They're assuming that all of our great room furniture will be perfectly aligned as it is in this drawing and to that I can only say, Ha ha ha ha ha.

The kitchen in this image is outdated (and yet I see that the cooktop was at least not directly behind the sink here), but maybe this gives a sense of the larger layout.

Well it is a concept that may or may not have been considered before, and just a concept meant to be adjusted and expanded on, or just to generate different ideas.

I hope the current house design still has the uniqueness and freshness of the previous designs.

@Mark Bischak, Architect I think it does! I prefer the current version to any of the others.

I like the changes you made. I find symmetry to be overrated , especially when it makes the space function worse. That said , I would also make sure that when something is "off center" or asymmetrical that is very obvious that it is a design choice and not a mistake - ie 18" off center vs 3".

I don't think I would do a breakfast table and a dining room table - that seems like too much. I like the idea of turning the island and making it bigger - go with 9-10 ft ( depending on slab size) and add some seating ( maybe just on one end for a couple of seats ) to it for a breakfast space ( or actually use the dining table that will only be a few feet further away).

You could also do 2 sided seating or even an L- shape island - there seems like there is a lot of room.

good luck on your build!

@Debbi Washburn thank you for these images. I was resisting island seating, but I do think if I have a huge island like that some seating makes sense instead of an additional table. One of my problems with it before was the island was too small for it to be practical to drop down the seating area to normal table height vs counter height. (I am short, and counter height would not be comfortable for me for eating.) But with a larger island, a drop down section seems possible.

Great point about making it obviously off-center so it doesn't look like a mistake.

What kind of sink is that in the island? If it's NOT a workstation sink, then where will you prep because you don't have enough room on either side. If it is a workstation sink, then you're fine.

Additionally I'd move the ovens to the left of the cooktop on the left end.

Have you considered drawers for the corner instead of a lazy susan? I highly recommend it.

Additionally if you make your coffee station a tall cabinet, you could free up space for a regular cabinet next to it. (Your layout is similar to what I have in my kitchen.)

Here's the tall coffee cabinet. (The advantage, is everything is behind closed doors too. So the end cabinet houses my coffee maker and toaster oven with cups and pods above the counter.

Just so you can see, this is basically my kitchen layout with some measurement adjustments that were made. The difference between what you have and what I have is that I put a prep sink on the perimeter next to my fridge because I knew there wasn't enough room on the island to prep with only 27" on either side. So I prep to the left of the prep sink in front of the window next to the cooktop.

Oh and symmetry is very overrated. You don't stand dead center across from the island and look straight ahead. Notice in my drawing above how my island is not symmetrical which means my pendant lights over my island aren't symmetrical with the perimeter.

I also like Mark's version with some tweaks.

@cpartist thank you for all the great pics and your layout! It is not a workstation sink, it's an apron front, but I was thinking the same thing, at least if the island stays 7x3, I would have to have a workstation. Maybe not if it get significantly larger.

If I understand correctly what you mean about the coffee bar, I can't put a tall cabinet there, where I have it in my revision, because it's a large window--unless you're saying to put it on a countertop between fridge and ovens (in place of tall pantry)?

It is helpful to see that asymmetry, I appreciate that. And of course your kitchen is gorgeous! I'm getting pushback on that symmetry aspect and it is bugging me. I agree no one stands dead center and stares...except perhaps an architect and a KD. :-) . So much good food for thought here.

No I'm saying move it where it says toaster/counter/uppers. Keep the low counter under the window where you have it. Move the ovens to the left of the cooktop on the end of the counter run. This way you're cooking is all in a row on the same wall.

@cpartist okay, now I understand! I like the idea of the ovens at the other end of the cooktop run, as long as I can still get 4ft of prep counter between cooktop and ovens. The designer's objection to my change to the fridge wall is they want tall fridge, pantry, and ovens to form a block that fills that wall, which is centered between the two windows. But I'd rather have the counter space for the coffee/sandwich prep. I will think about it!

I would thing the "tall fridge, pantry, and ovens to form a block that fills that wall" would be an encroachment of the openness of the great room's space.

The designer's objection to my change to the fridge wall is they want tall fridge, pantry, and ovens to form a block that fills that wall, which is centered between the two windows.

Dysfunctional for one or more of the three. What do you do when you need to put in or take out of them? Where do you put the grocery bags? Where do you put the hot plate out of the oven?

Those walls look nice but they don't work well. Note that my tall cabinet with the coffee stuff has a counter inside. And there's counter space to the right of the fridge.

I like the idea of the ovens at the other end of the cooktop run, as long as I can still get 4ft of prep counter between cooktop and ovens.

Why 4' there? I find I don't use the area between cooktop and oven for prepping. Only for taking food out of the oven or if I'm using the left hand hobs. All my prep is next to a water source.

@Mark Bischak, Architect in the original layout the "panel wall" of pantry/fridge/ovens, they are on the only available part of the south wall for tall appliance, between two windows, so when you enter the great room, if you look toward that wall, it will look symmetrical, and (i think) the first island is lined up with the center of that monolith. But yeah, that style is not really my thing, and to me because there would be two ovens, it would appear "weighted" toward the oven side anyway.

This brings up a related issue. I was going to get a FD fridge, cabinet depth, but not a built-in fridge, which is a lot more $$. But I think in this layout, no matter where the fridge ends up, it will have to be built in flush and with a cabinet panel because otherwise you can basically see the fridge from everywhere in the great room, and probably looks better if it blends in. However, the KD of course wants me to also do the d/w with a cabinet front, and I don't think that matters because no one will see it unless they're in the kitchen.

The wall across from the kitchen, on the outside of the walk-in pantry, is currently spec'd to be a wood feature wall of some kind (probably horizontal TIG), and the floor is white oak. Which means I need to do painted cabs on the kitchen perimeter (otherwise too much wood all over). I was going to do natural wood flat door cabs on the perimeter and a painted island. But now, I guess it's better to do the reverse. I realize that's not a layout question but a "what is too much wood" question...

@cpartist If the main sink backs to the cooktop wall, and if the island is still smallish, it is useful to have countertop behind me--which if the ovens move to that end would put the open countertop between ovens and cooktop. If i do one of the other layout options, it's not critical. And yes I feel similarly about those walls of doors/appliances--need to reach or walk to lay-down space. I think it's kind of trendy, too, and I'd like to avoid trendy if I can.

These illustrate my last comment:

@Mark Bischak, Architect thank you for the images. so in this case the better option would be (A) (the top one). But the even better option would be none of the above.

The top priority is that the kitchen is laid out to meet the needs of the cook(s).

My top illustration in my last comment, in my opinion, would make the great room space 'cleaner', without encroachment into the rectangular clear space; and would be better as long as a kitchen layout could be achieved that met all the needs of the cook(s).

Got it, @Mark Bischak, Architect, that makes sense.

No matter what layout you end up with you can always decorate it with signage for those that do not think it looks good

I have a long kitchen so my range is not centered in the kitchen. I think it is very functional and doesn’t look weird at all. Also my island is 12.5 x 4.5 ft and it is just manageable for me to clean as a 5’4 person.

@Rebekah Gibbs your kitchen is lovely! thank you for showing me the off-center range. You're right, it doesn't matter. What is your countertop? It's pretty!

@Mark Bischak, Architect Ha! I can think of a few signs I'd like to put up...

If you have the kitchen right next to the dining area why do you need a table in the kitchen as well?

@Jennifer Hogan technically i don't, but it will be a large table, probably, and for just 2-3 people on many days, we'd like a place to sit that's smaller. But yeah, I'm not going to add that second table.

2rickies it is crystallize quartzite from daltile (similar to taj majal quartzite). It is indestructible, we are so happy with how it performs!

@Rebekah Gibbs wow that is gorgeous stone!

I also have asymmetry in my kitchen. It is important to design a functional kitchen! When you look at the kitchen from different angles it should appear to have balance but not exact symmetry. Also plan for plenty of space in front of dishwashers and ovens. We are glad we have the 54” between the range and island. Keeps my kids safe.

Also paint is a chameleon so be sure to check it if you are doing painted cabinets. Our island is BM wrought iron which looks matte black most of the time but with lots of light it has a blue hue.

Lovely kitchen, @K H! I appreciate the examples.

@Mark Bischak, Architect regarding the interruption to the great room's openness, it seems like any refrigerator on its own would interrupt, especially if it's not a built-in. Not sure what the remedy for that would be except to put it on the back wall as you've shown, even if it's not part of a "block" of tall units.

I'm considering going with a stainless steel fridge rather than cabinet panels, even though I guess it will be visible from the far west end of the room. Seems like that would make the "interruption" even worse, too.

It is a personal preference, but I would rather look at the front of a refrigerator (no matter how the door finish is handled) than the side of a refrigerator.

With the refrigerator, pantry, and oven at the end of the great room, it would reduce the "interruption" of the space's volume. I think your objection of the refrigerator at the end of the great room is related to color/material and not the volume of the space.

This is splitting hairs, and again the way the cook cooks is top priority.

Here's a layout I was messing around with, a variation on Mark's suggestion of turning the island the other way and putting a prep sink near the corner. I would like a larger island than the original draft. I'm sure I have the proportions wrong for the island seating, this is just an example, but at least now the people sitting at the island can face the windows. (KD has said she doesn't think standard height seating works at an island, and is advocating for counter height.) I have the fridge on the end next to the ovens (no tall pantry cab), but I wonder if the fridge is now inconvient for users of the coffee/toaster counter.

That layout could work except you come into the ouse with bags of groceries. Where do you put them as you load stuff into the fridge? Are you going to keep doing 180's?

Here's another version. The issue is in both yours and this one is it's a hike to the fridge for milk for coffee unless you have another smaller fridge. I personally don't have the issue Mark does with seeing the side of a cabinet housing the fridge. It actually would help separate the two spaces.

See how much more efficient it is with going from fridge to prep sink to prep by the window to cooktop? Or from fridge to island sink to prep next to sink to cooktop?

Agree with others that commitment to symmetry is overblown compared to making the space functional for you. Personal opinion - I've seen 3 kitchens recently with double islands and they look like speed bumps to me. They're giant, blocky and a bit ostentatious. I think it's a fad that will go away in a few years. A lot of people are also migrating away from these fancy, decorative range hoods. Seriously, why do you want a range hood to attract that much attention? They can be built in like a cabinet so if you want to move the range, it won't dramatically impact the visual balance of your kitchen. Symmetry looks great in photos, but there are all kinds of ways to achieve visual balance in a space. And I definitely don't want my sink directly behind my range, even if I had a luxurious 48 inch wide aisle. Two people in the kitchen would be constantly back to back.

@mbfisher3 Agree on all counts! I would rather have a single island that's deeper for more storage rather than two fixed things to walk around. On the hood, the one I'm planning is pretty plain. I have a chimney hood now, and I hate having to stand on chair to clean the chimney.

@cpartist thank you for these ideas. For the groceries, the entrance from the garage is to the left of the walk-in pantry, so most often I'd pass the island before reaching the fridge. (see notes on 1st drawing below)

I like your second layout, with the fridge at the bottom--gets it away from the cooking zone and closer to the snack/coffee/lunch counter. The problem with a vertical island is it can't be longer than 7ft, so it feels cramped with the big sink, but I guess if I prep at the other sink it's ok, and the island sink would be for cleanup. I see an issue because the prep sink would be the natural one to use for those prepping at the coffee/sandwich counter and that will create competition that I'm hoping to eliminate by adding the second sink.

Here's a related idea, again with a horizontal island, and I've labeled the direction for groceries, etc.

I thought I'd try something else--keeping the vertical island, but widening it, and moving the coffee/sandwich/lunch bar to the east wall. Not sure I've allowed enough space on either side of the prep sink. If I move it closer to the cooktop, I think it might be too close, and cooktop can't move west because there's a window there. I'm not sure how the counter to left of the cooktop would be used. Plating and serving, maybe? It's accessible to both the dining area and the outside terrace where we'll have a small breakfast table.

You want your prep sink near your fridge. Otherwise it will never be used.

Turning the island means you have the two sinks back to back. Not good.

If you get rid of the coffee station, where will you put it?

Here you go. This solves the problem of the kids using YOUR prep sink. The sink is now on the island across from the cooktop. You have lots of room for prepping and the kids can use the cleanup sink. Of course the cooktop can be moved a bit on that wall. So now food goes from fridge to island to prep sink to cooktop. And now the cleanup sink is not across from the cooking zone too, so when the kids cleanup they're out of your work zone.

Yes, @cpartist, I like that! It solves a lot of problems. I suppose my one concern would be the d/w being in the path from fridge to cooking/prep area. As long as the aisle is wide enough, maybe that's okay. The "kids" in this case will most often be DH using that prep and coffee area, and part of the reason I'm putting in two sinks and separate zones is that we both work from home and right now we constantly get in each other's way doing exactly the opposite tasks that require us to be in the same space at the same time (clean-up vs cooking, small meal or snack prep vs cleaning up, etc). I also have (young-adult) kids, and they use the kitchen heavily when they're home, which happens for long stretches of time but not daily.

I'm going to be a +1 on Mark's original discussion of the open ceiling layout, and moving the refrigerator "block" onto the other wall to reinforce that. It looks like you will have a large, open space above human scale from the tall ceiling. I don't remember what ceiling height you wanted from your last design, but with the seating, low bookshelf, and island heights combined with the large fenestration, the purity of the shape of the space above your eyes will be prominently noticeable. And if your house design is now 2 simple rectangular masses connected via bridge, that emphasizes retaining that simplicity of this shape, and should be a strong factor in the Kitchen layout design.

Here is the current shape of that interior space now (in RED), it is stepped back above the cabinets on the East wall, and both the Pantry/hood/uppers + the ref/uppers (in PINK) "blocks" break up high into that interior space at an unbalanced rate. Visualize standing across the room (2 viewpoints shown in BLUE) and how that interrupts the simplicity of the entire wing. In addition, the corner windows are kind of a void behind a constricted pass-thru created by the flanking uppers.

So I would take it one step further beyond relocating the refrigerator "block." I would make that cabinet wall 24" deep uppers, with a small section of 12" deep inset uppers to continue the concept of that entire interior wing. Eliminate the corner window, and even carry those design lines across to the opposite side of room respecting the circulation space along the north wall. Visualize the same perspective points in the room, where only the FP and hood (often desired as a focal or monumental feature) interrupt the long wall and the massing above your head remains simple.

Yes, @cpartist, I like that! It solves a lot of problems. I suppose my one concern would be the d/w being in the path from fridge to cooking/prep area. As long as the aisle is wide enough, maybe that's okay.

My aisle is 48" and the DW doesn't block the path at all. Plus the DW will not be open all that much compared to everything else you do.

The "kids" in this case will most often be DH using that prep and coffee area, and part of the reason I'm putting in two sinks and separate zones is that we both work from home and right now we constantly get in each other's way doing exactly the opposite tasks that require us to be in the same space at the same time (clean-up vs cooking, small meal or snack prep vs cleaning up, etc).

Sounds like my house. Invariably, just as I want to start prepping, it's time to feed the dogs which DH does and of course he overtakes my prep sink since it's right next to the fridge. However, I just wash my initial stuff in the cleanup sink on the island and move it to my prep area which is out of the way of where he prepares the dog food. Having 2 sinks is wonderful!

I also have (young-adult) kids, and they use the kitchen heavily when they're home, which happens for long stretches of time but not daily.

Another reason for 2 sinks. I'm a huge fan now that I have 2.

Visualize standing across the room (2 viewpoints shown in BLUE) and how that interrupts the simplicity of the entire wing. In addition, the corner windows are kind of a void behind a constricted pass-thru created by the flanking uppers.

My view is also from my living room to my kitchen. I have a secret for you. No one stands dead center in the middle of the living room and looks toward the kitchen. Ever!

Function should always trump looks if one actually likes to cook. By having the fridge and ovens next to one another means no counter space next to either the fridge or the ovens. That is poor design in that it hinders functionality.

Our sink is directly across from the oven and I love it to be honest. This is our layout and it’s open concept to dining.

Love those dining light fixtures - brand??? and are they individual or wounted to a bar / set?

Mine? Mounted to a bar. All in a row. I think just from Wayfair

This is what it looks like

beautiful kitchen, @WestCoast Hopeful!

@WestCoast Hopeful beautiful kitchen. I love all of the open counter space you have to prepare and serve your meals!

"My view is also from my living room to my kitchen. I have a secret for you. No one stands dead center in the middle of the living room and looks toward the kitchen. Ever!

@cpartist Standing dead center is in reference to having a stove centered on an island and FP across the way. There is nothing in this project like that, so don't know what you refer to. If you are talking about my little "blue circle" on my sketch, that is a representative marker for anyone sitting in the Living Room. In the OP's scheme, anywhere you sit in the Living Room affords a broad, expansive view of the entire space - that space includes the Living, Dining, and Kitchen. If you have followed the OP's design iterations, and aesthetic, then you would understand this is not a typical suburban house where you put blinders on to the rest of the house and focus on the Kitchen layout without any other design relationships. Often, a 3-D rendering is required by many to really understand a space.

Function should always trump looks if one actually likes to cook. By having the fridge and ovens next to one another means no counter space next to either the fridge or the ovens. That is poor design in that it hinders functionality."

Again, I only see one of your sketches, no others, that has a ref next to the cooktop, so don't know what you reference. But you can actually have the aesthetic and function roost in the same space.