Were my tiles spot bonded?!

last year

I have sent a message to my GC but was hoping to gain some insight from you all. Can you tell from these pictures if my large format tiles were spot bonded? This is my shower in the primary bathroom. Thank you for your help.

Featured Answer

PRO

Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.

last year

last modified: last year

As we speak the National Tile Contractor's Association is working on a document for consumers about the problems with spot bonding. And it's a problem! Yes, mortar coverage in wet areas requires 95% coverage for multiple reasons. Based on your photos it doesn't appear this installation is in compliance with industry recommendations. And if you knock on it and hear different sounds? Telltale sign. If you get push-back, feel free to send us a message and we will share the draft document from the committee. In addition, the TCNA Reference Manual and ANSI Standards are the technical references that should be complied with. Off to a meeting with the Committee to discuss this matter right now.

Comments (23)

millworkman
last year
Certainly looks like it. Possible a bit more than spot bonded but it does not look like the required 95% coverage.
PRO
BeverlyFLADeziner
last year
There should not be any gaps between the tile and the wall.
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I'd prefer that more grout had been left in the joints. They look dished out a bit too much, where too much grout was removed during the cleanup phase. I'd have preferred the grout to be more flush with the face of the tile. Looking closely at the first two photos, the darkened grout lines are all parallel to one another. In the first photo you can see the wet grout lines are all parallel to the edge of the drain. That leads me to believe that the "uphill" edges of the tiles are acting like mini dams and holding water, they are preventing water from easily flowing downhill to the drain. The second closeup photo, you see the same effect. All the damp grout lines are again parallel to one another. Again, to me that reflects a drainage issue. Not necessarily with the amount of floor pitch, but with the grout lines being so dished out that they hold water and slow drainage. Marble is porous and can absorb water. With the grout lines being a bit too raked out, the edges of the marble hexes are exposed. Water held against the tile edge can lead to absorption into the marble. The crack in the grout in that second photo, you also wrote that there are other cracks. That's usually a sign of too much water used in the grout mix, or that sanded grout should have been used instead of unsanded. Unsanded should be used in joints less than 1/8" wide. Cracks can also indicate movement in the floor, but that shouldn't be an issue with a properly set Kerdi Tray. As far as him having used a preformed Kerdi-Tray, if he did, it appears that is was certainly cut down in an awkward manner. The drain is no where near centered in the shower. So if he did some filling here and there with mud or thinset to even out the floor pitch or edge elevations, that could have be part of the problem. But that's supposition on my part. About the only other thing I could question is that often times with small tiles, when the sheets are set into the thinset, thinset can ooze up between the hex tiles and partially fill the grout lines. That thinset needs to be cleaned out so the grout lines can be completely filled with grout. If it's not, you can get uneven thicknesses of grout, think of it as a veneer of grout over a blob of thinset. That can result in uneven water absorption, the grout cracking, etc. All that aside...with this being your second go-around, he should have install the sloped Kerdi Tray and thinsetted it to the subfloor. Then he should have set the Kerdi drain. Then he should have thinsetted Kerdi Membrane (an orange colored sheet material) over the Kerdi Tray, then tiled on the Kerdi Membrane. I'd be interested in how he tied the Kerdi Membrane in with the wall membrane IF he used Kerdi Membrane over the Kerdi Tray. Best. Mongo
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downbythebrooke
Original Author
last year
Thank you for your response. Is it a redo?
catbuilder
last year
Yes, and yes.
millworkman
last year
"Is it a redo?"

Yep.
downbythebrooke
Original Author
last year
Well, my GC is fighting me on this. He says he sees trowel marks so therefore it’s not spot bonded. He also said that tile never lays flat to the wall. I feel he’s trying to intimidate me with I can take some tiles off but if you’re wrong you have to pay. Im so frustrated!
PRO
HALLETT & Co.
last year
A5 least there is waterproofing … I would tap the handle of a tool on it to hear hollow spots (a screwdriver or golf ball for instance’
millworkman
last year
Picture #1 top tile, not even close to 95% coverage just for starters. What makes anyone think that the rest are any different
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
last year
Tap on them please. All snicks no thunks.
downbythebrooke
Original Author
last year
As I tap down the tile, I hear different sounds. I also learned they used a v notch trowel. My research tells me that is for tiles up to 6 inch. The GC is on his way over, but I’m not expecting much. All it’s been so far is patting me on the head.
PRO
Beth H. :
last year
last modified: last year
^ This. exactly what I was going to say.

He says he sees trowel marks so therefore it’s not spot bonded.

LMAO. I see a giant blob right here!

The trowel marks he sees here are on the wall. the tile guy trowled the thinset on the wall. It's supposed to also be done on the back of the tile. you can clearly see blobs of thinset that were flattened onto the wall trowel marks.

This is what happens when you trowel the wall, and then spot bond your tiles

every single tile should look like this

Not this:

Pull a few of those tiles off the wall. I guarantee you it will look like this

This is proper coverage. every single tile on the wall should look like this when you pull it off.

Your contractor is balking because it's going to cost him money and time. (show him these pictures and all of these comments!)

Stand your ground. If you hear hollow sounds, that means there is no coverage on that portion. it should sound 'solid'.

You and all of us, are right.
catbuilder
last year
He sees trowel marks? That, too, is a problem. You should not see any ridges from the trowel, they should all be flattened. The blobs ("spots") are clearly visible in your photo.
PRO
Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
last year
last modified: last year
@Beth H. :Nice explanation and visuals.
downbythebrooke
Original Author
last year
Update: I wanted to thank everyone for reaching out and trying to help. I’ve been reading this forum for years soaking in all the information and never thinking I’d be a design dilemma! There has been no solution to this issue that I find adequate. Everything favors the GC and company. Maybe that’s how it’s done. I was told yesterday by the the GC “why do you care so much. You have a warranty.” I can’t even begin to tell you how inappropriate their customer service has been. Right now I just want them to finish up and leave our home. Again, thank you for your help!
PRO
Beth H. :
last year
last modified: last year
how long is the warranty? water intrusion issues sometimes can take years. and tack on more years before the problem is even noticed. by that time, the warranty is long gone.

Your GC sounds like a real peach.

Take down a few tiles. lets see how much adhesion is there. Then throw the TCNA handbook in the guys face w/the instructions on how to properly back butter large format tiles.

Read this link and it talks about thinset application and why spot bonding is no no.

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/blog/eliminate-spot-bonding-ceramic-tile-installation#tcna

According to the ANSI Specifications, Section A108.5-2.2.2 describes the approved method for installing floor and wall tile as follows,

“Apply mortar with the flat side of the trowel over an area no greater than can be covered with tile before the mortar skins over. Using a notched trowel of the type recommended by the mortar manufacturer, comb mortar to obtain an even setting bed without scraping backing material. Cover surface uniformly with no bare spots and with sufficient mortar to insure a minimum mortar thickness of 3/32” (2 mm) between tile and backing after the tile has been beaten into place. Tile shall not be applied to skinned-over mortar.”

Using the above ANSI method, the mortar is keyed into the entire substrate yielding a good mechanical bond with no bare spots.

Spot bonding doesn't even come close to these industry-approved methods.

Make sure to read this link, and make sure your dumbo GC reads it. It talks about spot bonding

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/blog/eliminate-spot-bonding-ceramic-tile-installation

You are paying him, right? What do you care, he asks? Tell him you aren't paying for half azz work, and if he wants to get paid you demand it be done correctly.

Maybe the guys over at JohnBridge Tile forum can offer you more advice. They're all pro tilers who are familiar w/this issue. CX is one of the best mods on there.

https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=c1890bbb23718e98a7f60f026e7b7f51&f=1
downbythebrooke
Original Author
last year
Thank you, Beth. I have actually seen both of those articles and have forwarded them on. He insists that nothing is wrong and 100% trusts his tile guy. Their solution is to remove 3 tiles - one of my choice and two of their choice. Only the GC gets to determine if there is enough coverage - if he decides there is I pay to put everything back and if he says there is not enough coverage he will only replace those three tiles. I’m just done. It has been an exhausting day of being told I am not the professional and I have no idea what I’m talking about 🤷‍♀️
cpartist
last year
I would fire him.
PRO
Beth H. :
last year
last modified: last year
Their solution is to remove 3 tiles - one of my choice and two of their choice.

Only the GC gets to determine if there is enough coverage -if he decides there is I pay to put everything back and if he says there is not enough coverage he will only replace those three tiles.

lemme guess...he's going to determine all the coverage is good. But, if those 3 aren't, he's only going to redo those, forget all the others??!! is he serious??

wow. This guy is a real piece of work

You know, if he is so confident that all of the tiles are properly done, then why would he have a problem letting you pull off the 3 tiles? Doesn't make sense. Either they're all done correctly, or they're not.

. I wouldn't pay him one dime from here on out, and I'd fire him right now. Screw this arrogant &^%#$

I sure as heck wouldn't let his guys finish. just pay them a minimum for what they've done, and call in an independant tiler, one who is aware of what spot bonding is. (and if he thinks it's ok, move on to a new guy).

I'm sorry you're going through this.
PRO
Patricia Colwell Consulting
last year
Amen to all of that . You moght need to get a lawyer involved even if just to send a letter to scare the jerk make sure you keep all these pictures too.
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
last year
"Their solution is to remove 3 tiles - one of my choice and two of their choice. Only the GC gets to determine if there is enough coverage - if he decides there is I pay to put everything back and if he says there is not enough coverage he will only replace those three tiles."

Tell him you'll pick all three tiles and if the coverage doesn't substantially meet TCNA standards, he'll replace them all. That's a very fair counteroffer.

Tap the tile with the back of a plastic screwdriver and listen. You'll find your three quickly.
Lyndee Lee
last year
The GC is being an idiot, in many different aspects. He must have a cozy relationship with the tile contractor or he would be pushing responsibility back to the tile guys. If this gets resolved now, he can share costs with the tile guy but if it gets finished, he owns the problem.

I like his idea that you shouldn't worry because you have a warranty. Ummm, excuse me, why would anyone consider a promise of future corrective work when the current work is wrong? Is he practicing kicking the can down the road, in hope of waiting out until he sells his business or retires?
millworkman
last year
"“why do you care so much. You have a warranty.”"

LOL, he is blowing you off now in 3-4 years when the tile are falling off the wall he will not even admit he knew you...................

Were my tiles spot bonded?!

Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.

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millworkman

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