Please help improving functionality for weird kitchen

last year

last modified: last year

I recently posted a question and got a lot of feedback about the poor functionality in my current kitchen design and wanted to get some critique of 2 other layouts I have been considering.

Original layout (previously had washing machine on short wall which is now in basement):

Main entrance through unheated enclosed porch is at bottom, door at top is to living room.

Layout 1:

L-shaped 6x6 island with prep sink and trash pullout as main functionalities and 2 stool seating on the dining room side. This gives a space to drop groceries by fridge, wash and prep produce, and is close (4 ft) to the range. Doesn't impede cleaning area and dish storage at main sink under left window on wall. exact location of prep sink might vary. Downsides are: it looks weird? and have to walk farther to main sink and dish area from dining area.

Layout 2:

7' long island with main sink and dishwasher. Prep sink and trash are on short wall. Downsides are: no convenient area for dish storage right there, and might be too busy with main sink and island seating? could think about some kind of dish storage along dining room wall maybe.

Thoughts?

Featured Answer

Buehl

last year

last modified: last year

All the above said, I think I may have come up with one that will work. It's similar to some of the above, but more "fleshed out".

It nicely separates the three primary Work Zones -- Prep, Cooking, Cleanup. It also provides you with a secondary and tertiary Prep Zone (tertiary has no direct water source).

It provides a nice wide aisle b/w the counters so traffic can pass by without getting in the way too much.

It has two sinks -- a cleanup sink in a peninsula and a prep sink under the left window. The prep sink is what makes the layout work. Without the sink, it doesn't work because (1) you will be forced to cross a wide aisle and dodge foot traffic and (2) you will forced to share the sink and the counter next to the sink with dirty dashes and other cleanup tasks, plus, there isn't even the minimum recommended length of workspace for prep zone (36").

The Prep Zone is the most protected from traffic. I would have rather had the Cooking Zone in that space, but the window is in the way.

The refrigerator is directly across from the primary Prep Zone. It's easily accessed from each of the primary work zones without crossing through other zones.

Dish storage is in the island next to the sink and near the DW. I recommend storing your most often used dishes there. That also puts the dishes & silverware close to the Dining Room. Not only is it easy to put things away when unloading the DW, but dishes will be easily accessible from the Dining Room when setting the table without someone setting the table getting underfoot of those prepping or cooking the meal. Overflow dish storage is directly across the aisle to the right of the MW drawer.

There is no seating at the peninsula. You don't have enough space for back-to-back seating - you should have at least 60".

Why a MW drawer? You don't have any wall space large enough to fit an over the counter MW. If you'd rather, you could just put it on the counter to the right of the range (see the "Opt MW" item in the layout). Personally, I'd rather have the MW drawer (which is why it's there), but you may not mind a MW on the counter. I didn't see a MW in any of the pictures I found, so if you don't use one, then I would skip the MW drawer. In the future if/when you decide to get one (or some future owner), just put it on the counter. (Or, put in a 24" cabinet there with an outlet in the back for some future need and make that a 2-drawer drawer base with the top drawer around 17" deep.)

There is also a Snack and Tea/Coffee Center. It has the MW (regardless of which you choose) and plenty of workspace. It's across from the cleanup sink, so water is not that far away. The refrigerator is a bit far from the refrigerator, but it's not too bad. Someone making a snack won't get in the way of those prepping, cooking, or cleaning up. The MW is also near the Cooking Zone if it's needed as part of meal prep/cooking (e.g., melting butter or making veggies).

There are two 18" wide tall pullout cabinets flanking the windows. They could both be pantry cabinets or one could be a pantry cabinet (the on the far left) and the other a utility cabinet for mop. broom, cleaning supplies, etc.) If pantry, make them pullout pantries -- doors attached to the shelves so when you open the door the shelves come with it. It's much more useful that way. Because they're no wider than 18", things should not get lost in them like they would if they were wider and 24" deep.

Note: I don't know how wide the alcove is. Even with the front wall and trim eliminated, it may not be wide enough for a 36" refrigerator. You need to have air space around the sides, in the back, and above. If that space is exactly 36", you will probably need to see if you can find a 33" wide refrigerator instead.

WORK ZONES:

I tried other layouts -- an "L", just a straight run with nothing across the aisle except the refrigerator (trying to keep the aisle b/w the porch door & Living Room clear), and moving the refrigerator out of the alcove, but none worked out as well (or, in some cases, at all). It's not just the Kitchen that needs to be taken into account, the Dining Room and the table also need to be considered -- along with aisles around the table, in the Kitchen, etc. You want sufficient aisles so people are willing to go through the Dining Room rather than straight through the Kitchen when entering your home.

BTW...you are correct, the range will not fit there with sufficient landing/safety space b/w it and the doorway. The best you could do is a 12" cabinet to the left and then a 36"W aisle b/w the basement door and counter. I would rather see at least an 18" cab with a 36" aisle, better yet, 24" cab + 36" aisle. The next issue with that setup is that the sink and range are crammed next to each other -- so no hope for a multi-cook Kitchen. With children, you should be planning on a Kitchen that can support two or more cooks -- teaching them to cook & cleanup, when they start making their own snacks, cooking with friends, etc.

Comments (22)

lharpie
last year
I don’t care for the L shape - i think it makes a more narrow passageway where you dont need one. i like the penninsula idea but just a rectangle with prep sink. You will make to try it out but I’m thinking you are asking to much to fit stools and a large table though. sink and dw would be convenient there if you prefer, but from the other photos and number of kids am thinking you may be better served by putting the mess around the corner. Maybe I’m just projecting though - I love my completely seperate kitchen!
er612
last year
last modified: last year
I wouldn't bother with corner cabinets. They'll just make the space harder to navigate. Even in the top right corner, next to the main sink. If you eliminate the L shape, people can still walk through the kitchen while the dishwasher or trash is open.

Have you considered incorporating the table into the island? Doesn't have the be built in. Here are some examples:
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er612
last year
last modified: last year
Consider turning the island. Is it possible to change the direction of the fridge? If not, I still think turning the island would improve the flow. First two options keep sink and dishwasher in current location, prep sink in island; third option, they swap:

Here are two island layouts from https://brophyinteriors.com/interiors for inspo:
Lisa
Original Author
last year
Thanks for the suggestions! I came up with an updated design:

I think the dining room adjacent space is just a bit too narrow for a free standing island, and a peninsula might be easier in terms of reno because there is a water line in the wall where the fridge is, (a bathroom is directly behind it) and I was thinking they could run it through the wall into the peninsula cabinets without having to re-do flooring. I made the island narrower (30 inches instead of 40) because I agree seating is kind of tough there. I mostly put it in because everyone seems to do counter seating, but I think the table is so close that it probably doesn't make sense.

In terms of practicality, I was thinking that if we had 24" deep cabinets and a 30" wide island, the water line to the prep sink could be run between the cabinets and some kind of backing, does that make sense? I'm also wondering if the prep sink (15x15) and trash pullout could be housed in the same cabinet together but I'm not sure exactly how to make that work... any suggestions?

I also added a 4' cabinet with an 18" depth along the wall, kind of a built in buffet. I'm thinking it would be a nice coffee station close to the table and landing zone when coming in the door for mail and keys.
Wendy H
last year
That looks great! I also think it’s very smart to have your main sink with dishwasher in that location so your hand washed dishes can be left out to dry while out of the main view.
lharpie
last year
Does that mean you can get rid of the freestanding pantry cabinets? because i really want to nix those. :)

I like this plan though - it looks way nicer to cook in than the original.
herbflavor
last year
cut the depth on side set up to 15 in and extend it to 54 in wide. you have the space without interfering w dining table ...you'll find activity there so you want a wide passage behind people standing there. even 12 in deep works quite well but start with 15 in depth...not 18. you can add an upper cab there .....or open shelves...
Buehl
last year
Could you please provide more detailed dimensions?
Lisa
Original Author
last year
@Buehl

A 39"

B 67"

C 30"

D 40"

E 74"

F 40"

G 32.75"

H 33.75"

I 32"

J 19'5"

K 106"
Buehl
last year
I'll look at it tomorrow (working right now and all morning. I may have time tomorrow afternoon.)
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
Do the door & window measurements include trim?

If not, how wide is your trim -- it needs to be added to the door & window measurements.

E.g., if your door is 32" wide without trim and you have 3" trim around it, then the actual measurement is 38" = 3" trim + 32" door + 6" trim

If the door is 32" including trim, then your door is probably around 26" wide, which I don't think that's the case, at least for the porch door.
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
How wide is your refrigerator? Now? Future? Note that 36"W is the most common today and the easiest to find.

I assume the range is 30"W and the DW 24"W -- they're standard sizes.

What do the windows look out on?

Are you taking down the wall to the right of the Living Room doorway (red oval)? You don't show a wall there in your layout, so I'm assuming so.

What about the soffit (blue oval) & corner area (yellow oval) to the far right from the Living Room door?
Lisa
Original Author
last year
@Buehl

The entrance door is 34 for the door and 42 including trim

The doorway to living room (A by the soffits) is 36 opening, no trim included (no door either it is just an opening) - sorry my measurements were a bit off on that.

All the soffits and that small wall (it is just like MDF) circled are coming down so it will be bare wall.

Oven and DW are standard 30 and 24 respectively. Fridge is currently 30" but there is space in the alcove to get to 36" - I think we will just expand the doorway.

Thanks!
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
Have you thought of taking down the wall where the refrigerator is - from the front to the Bathroom wall? That would gain you 4" or 5", depending on how thick that wall is.

The "front" wall as well...take it down to the Basement stairs wall.

How deep is the alcove the refrigerator is in?
Buehl
last year
Where does the doorway from the Dining Room lead?

What would really help would be a sketch of the entire floor. The sketch would let us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen.
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
Normally, I would recommend switching the Dining Room and Kitchen -- for two main reasons:
- Your main entry is in the current Kitchen space and it would work better if it were the Dining Room instead
- From what I can see, the current Dining Room has much better wall space for appliances and is deep enough to accommodate deep appliances, workspaces, etc. -- better than the current Kitchen!
Caveat - until I know what's in the current Dining Room (walls, windows, doors), I cannot say for sure.

However, I know that you're trying to keep the cost down...but, you wouldn't need to make structural changes -- like taking down walls & soffits. That would reduce your costs since structural changes are often costly. Maybe enough to offset moving the plumbing and rang venting? (You could then make that alcove where the washing machine was into a built-in space buffet & cabinets -- maybe glass above and drawer bases below.)
lharpie
last year
Wouldn’t that make a very strangely shaped dining room? maybe i am the last one left who wants a nice diningroom, but i can’t envision that shape working well?
Buehl
last year
It's a rectangle, aren't most a rectangle?
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
Questions in the image below in addition to the ones above.

If there are windows on the bottom wall, how far off the floor are they?

How far off the floor is the one window already in the layout?

Do you have two Living/Family Rooms? I'm asking b/c you said "the other rooms are living room areas". Have you considered re-working those in any way? Maybe making one large Family Room and opening up the wall b/w the Living Room next to the Kitchen and extending the Kitchen into that space?

You might be able to make a small Foyer/Entryway in front of the porch door if you did that; i.e., give it more of a front door/Foyer/Guest entrance feel/look.
Buehl
last year
last modified: last year
I'm going to be blunt with you. Please don't take offense, but I think it needs to be said.

First, you want a functional Kitchen, correct?

The more constraints you put on us, the fewer options are possible and, often, functionality is adversely impacted.

In your case, you have three major constraints that, together, are having very negative impacts on a functional design:

(1) you don't want to touch the windows (you said they were "non-negotiable")

(2) you insist on the range being centered b/w the windows

(3) the sink has to be under a window and, I suspect, centered

Add to that the fact that the main entry into your home for both family and guests is in the Kitchen and in the middle of what should be prime workspace (and it would be if you didn't have the door there).

With these limitations, I think you need to think about what is more important to you function or looks? If looks, then functionality will suffer.

What might be a better option is to wait for now and save up enough money until it can be done right -- moving the Kitchen to the Dining Room area -and/or- moving/modifying the Kitchen windows (one large window?) -and/or- moving/modifying other walls/doors/windows.
Lisa
Original Author
last year
@Buehl

I hadn't been checking this thread and didn't see the notifications that you had updated with this latest design - I apologize for not responding! I really like this design. I had been thinking of a "prep" zone peninsula, but it was too far from the stove (and through traffic) and then moved to a prep island, but the dimensions were too wonky... this seems like the right way to go. We use a dish drying rack pretty heavily that could go to the left of the sink, just hope it wouldn't look too messy but again I guess the tiered design might help with that. I might need to sell my husband on dish storage in base cabinets as I think he's never done that, nor have I.

My 2 questions for you (if you see this)

1) What is the purpose of the extra 12" cabinet behind the sink/dw peninsula? Is it mostly to be raised and hide the sink? It seems like the 2-tier island/peninsula is a bit dated I'm seeing, and might look weird without seating on the other side, but I was thinking maybe cabinets for dish/cup storage on that side would be nice, or open shelves for books or kid stuff.

3) I'd like to retain some of the base cabinets on the short wall (I can't lose much/any storage space or my husband will be very unhappy), do you think a corner sink could work? Ignore the upper shelves there, just got tired of deleting from previous design.

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to do this design.

full design: