"Kim, thanks for the response. I wish the classes were defined better too and that I understood the underlying lineages more. the more crosses there are, the more it gets confusing. I like what Lux say, "it's all in the genes, but what genes." Hi Gean, you're welcome! I'm glad this thread is getting the depth of thought you're giving it. Thank you! You'll understand more of the underlying lineages more with practice and exposure. Studying the parentages on HMF will begin to show you patterns, lines which do or don't do what you seek. "The main reason I think about parentage is not so much that I'm esoterically interested in the problems of ARS classification. I'm not a rose breeder,but just an average joe. My interest is my garden and what will do well in it." Yes ma'am, totally valid. "For example, mildew is a problem in my garden because of the climate up here and maybe also my lack of airflow because of the trees around here. Some roses do perfectly fine, others are really susceptible. I've never dealt with mildew before, so it's something new for me." Yes, and ironically, sister seedlings from the same hip will often show tremendously varying degrees of resistance. "I look for hybrid musks because they are supposedly more tolerant of the lack of sun and general climate up here, but some seem to be susceptible to mildew, some not. Why is that? What is in the lineage of some that cause susceptibility to mildew but not others." Hybrid Musk is a misnomer. Originally, Aglaia was created by crossing multiflora with Reve d'Or. Reve d'Or was a seedling of Mme. Schultz, classed as a Tea Noisette, but of unknown parentage. Noisettes originated from musk X China, but there is no known link between these and Mme. Schultz, therefore with Reve d'Or, therefore with any of the established Hybrid Musks. That link is often repeated, but never proven, so it's rose legend. Everything about them as a class, look, behavior, scent, shade tolerance, botanical details...all go back to multiflora. Hybrids of multiflora can be intensely chlorotic due to pH; can mildew something terrible; tend to have great shade tolerance; greatly exhibit the shrub to climbing growth demonstrated by the HM class; traditionally have pastel to white coloring, which is completely logical for under story, woodland plants. Dark flowers don't reflect a lot of light so wouldn't attract pollinators and would die out in Nature. "Musks" aren't necessarily susceptible to mildew. Multifloras often are. Ballerina is a mildew martyr here. There is no "musk" in her expressed characteristics, but there is a TON of multiflora. Each seedling of the same parents is going to have as different an immune system as siblings from the same parents. Some combinations will produce greater resistance than others. "The worst mildew I ever had was the beautiful found rose by our own dear Ann Peck, Old Grey Cemetery noisette. The lineage isn't known but classed as a Noisette, I figure it has musk in it. - is musk highly susceptible to mildew? OG was bs impervious, I thought and tough as a boot - her words and my experience echoes it. Why is that? But highly mildewed in my yard." Mildew is a juvenility disease. It most often affects new foliage. Rust and black spot are geriatric diseases, affecting aging foliage. You can force any plant to develop the infections, even those with great resistance, through culture. You can force even the healthiest rose to mildew by stressing it for water severe enough. I stressed my R. Arkansana into terminal rust through water stress. I now over water it and it is squeaky clean. Many China roses mildew quite a bit. Look at Old Blush. I've not encountered much disease of any kind on roses which demonstrate strong musk influence. Secret Garden is totally immune to everything here. No fungal issues at all, even in a very stressed, shady, dry and windy spot in a client's garden in Santa Clarita. No diseases at all. Penelope mildews like crazy in the same garden. Erfurt and the Lens hybrid multifloras mildewed here in Encino. Secret Garden, stressed tremendously in a five gallon can with almost no soil left in it, and pulled from the roots it grew into the ground is spotless. Oddly, Pookah is disease free here in the same area as the others who have mildew. "I find that some hybrid musks have problems with mildew, some don't. Cornelia suffers but Exc vS its next door neighbor doesn't. Does Cornelia have more musk in it? Lineage isn't known. Is musk the issue? Is Exc VS really a hybrid musk? It is also classed as a polyantha by some. The vintage catalog says what binds the hybrid musks together is their shrubby nature. That's helpful for knowing how they grow but not so much as to their disease susceptibility." There is no known link between anything musk and either of those roses. There IS a high percentage of multiflora in Schubert. That and China roses. Schubert also contains a decent amount of Frau Karl Druschki, another rose which can mildew like crazy. It appears the combination of the two sets of genes provided the better pairings from Schubert's disease resistance. From Cornelia's behavior and performance, I'm comfortable offering that it contains a decent amount of multiflora, just as the other Hybrid Musks do. Sally Holmes is, by breeding, a Hybrid Musk. Ballerina, though of unknown origin, is considered one and Sally is Ballerina X Ivory Fashion. Polyanthas sprang from multiflora. Polyanthas led to several of the roses in question, Excellenze von Schubert for one. Ballerina is like a pinker, repeat flowering multiflora, almost what you'd expect from a pink, The Gift. Knowing what you do about Sally Holmes, is it that far a stretch to consider that, perhaps, the unknown seedling which created Penelope, Cornelia, and the rest might have been either Ballerina, Trier or something very similar? Here, Sally has much greater mildew resistance than Cornelia, Buff Beauty, Ballerina, Erfurt and many others. Talk about blurring of breeding! Robin Hood (a product of a hybrid multiflora crossed with multiflora and China roses) crossed with another poly led to the poly, Happy. Cl. Happy is like a dark red Hybrid Musk/repeat flowering rambler. Robin Hood when crossed with a Hybrid Tea resulted in Iceberg. Iceberg has characteristic mildew on the peduncles and can be forced to black spot if kept pruned too harshly. Notice some trends here? Getting the idea where your mildew originated? "If I could figure out where the predisposition to mildew comes from in its lineage it might help me avoid those types of hybrid musks. Prob the answer is there is no answer, I'm just trying to over simplify." No, I don't think you're trying to over simplify, but the answer is a bit more involved than we'd hope. The mildew came from multiflora and China roses. Some reshuffling of the genes through breeding has led to some which are less susceptible, but without personal experience, it's almost impossible to know which ones. Might you have tried moving the worst offenders around to see if a change of a few feet might help them remain cleaner? A suggestion...Nastrana is known to be a China rose X musk cross, therefore a real musk hybrid. Secret Garden is, by characteristics, a musk or musk hybrid. Have you tried either of those? Lavender Dream is out of Nastrana and Yesterday. Yesterday has Ballerina in it, but has been very healthy in places Ballerina isn't. Narrow Water is a sport of Nastrana. Trying some of these which are either known or highly suspected of being descended from actual musk roses might help answer your questions about where the mildew came from and what might be used to avoid it. Darlow's Enigma is highly multiflora by characteristics, but much more disease resistant than the traditional Hybrid Musks for me. Perhaps it might work for you? It's thought it might actually be Cascadia, which has multiflora, Brunonii and modern roses in it. I hope I've at least given you some more ideas to ponder. Thanks! Kim

GDR was used as the commercial root stock for California grown roses for decades until a field mix up between it and Dr. Huey resulted in Huey replacing it. Many old "abandoned" plants of GDR are the result of the scion dying and the stock remaining. It was also sold as the original "Simplicity" type hedge rose in the fifties and sixties, and it was a popular commercial rose from the Nineteenth Century forward, appearing on many old nursery lists across the country. It's been theorized it was actually a very old Chinese rose brought to Europe and introduced under a new name. If you click on the"Buy From" tab on HMF, you will see a number of old nursery archive pages I have uploaded to document when and where it was historically commercially available, such as Armstrong Nursery Archive 1931; Biltmore Nursery Archives 1908 and 1913; Dingee & Conard Nursery Archive 1884; Pomaria Nurseries Archive 1861; and some later ones. In fact, there are many older roses for which historic nursery archive information is available on HMF from a number of old nursery catalogs, if you're sufficiently interested to look.

This is one of the roses I ordered for the cemetery in Spring. I purposely sought out hard-to-find and "found" roses. I think you'll be happy to see what I managed to not only find, but in many cases, find on-sale. Some, from Rose Petals Nursery, were only $7. You can see the list in my post in the thread below: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/high-country-roses-20-off-in-stock-varieties-dsvw-vd~5482846?n=16[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/high-country-roses-20-off-in-stock-varieties-dsvw-vd~5482846?n=16) Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I just wanted you to know that it will be growing here. Did you just buy yours, or have you been growing it for a while? If the latter, do you have more pics? Thanks in advance. :-) ~Christopher

Ha! I just realized that both of these roses were hybridized by Vibert. I think I had better look at some of his other roses.... One nice thing, finally it seems to be trickling into the literature on roses that "root stock" is not some strange root thingy "with 7 leaves", which produces mysterious "suckers" which always produce red roses, and which to be removed. That is what I read when I was first trying to find out about roses. The facts, of course, is that root stock is just a different rose, and could be lots of different ones, and is frequently an OLD ROSE, which was selected for its strong roots and vigor. AND, "suckers" do not have to come from root stock, but may come from the actual roots of a rose on its own roots, which has decided to colonize the area around itself. There are still so many old canards about roses being written and passed on that it is discouraging, but I am encouraged that now at least there is also accurate information being written. Jackie