Thank you for sharing the helpful recap!

If you're also purchasing a CO do you really need an XXL CSO? Our friends have a Miele XXL CSO and Miele Speed Oven and wish they'd gone with an XL instead of XXL. We have a Wolf 30" induction range with convection oven and are planning to pair it with a Miele XL CSO when we remodel our kitchen next year.

I've saw/played with all of the listed options at various showrooms. While I loved the side door on the Gaggenau, I was warned that it's also the most complicated one to use among the various brands. Also, reliability/service issues seem to come up quite often in my area (SF Bay Area). YMMV.

Thank you for the info! I've only been able to use the Miele in depth, and the other ones I saw briefly since I was with my kids and they didn't have the patience for a long visit. That's disappointing to hear about the Gaggenau. I was the most interested in it after seeing the side door and that it was also plumbed, but after typing everything out and seeing the functions it lacks, I'm leaning towards the miele.

When I first started looking into CSOs, I wanted it to be the main oven, but now I see each CSO has its own limitations. I'll have to think more about what I want to bake in it to see if the XXL or XL is better for me.

Some more points.

- The Miele, Gaggenau, and Wolf (really a v-Zug) have stainless steel inteirors which limits their max service temprature but has much less chance of rusting. The Thermador is enamled.

- The wolf has sous vide mode.

- The gaggenau’s broil element is behind ceramic glass and much easier to clean. The miele broil element is a pain to clean although some improvments have been made with the 7000 series.

- Plumbed gaggenau have auto cleaning with propeitery cleaning cartridge that makes cleaning the easiest.

- Both gaggenau and miele have steam reduction feature thay condesnes the steam at end of cooking cycle and reduces amount of steam comming out when openin the door.

- The XL miele supposedly heats up alot faster than the XXL due to its reduced size.

There are a few detailed blog posts CSO’s for Yale worth reading too.

https://blog.yaleappliance.com/review-of-the-miele-contourline-m-touch-combi-steam-oven

https://blog.yaleappliance.com/miele-vs-wolf-steam-ovens

https://blog.yaleappliance.com/best-steam-ovens-reviews-ratings-prices

I have installed Miele XXL CSOs in 2 different kitchens and have been very happy with that model. The XXL heats up very fast compared to most other ovens out there, so I would not use that as a reason not to buy it!

Thank you all! Those are some helpful links I missed. I was wondering why the maximum temperature was lower in most steam ovens and the interior material explains a lot. It really seems I can't go wrong. I'm down to the Miele XXL or XL.

Now I'm debating whether I want an induction range or induction cooktop with a wall oven.

Personally, I would go induction cooktop + seperate wall oven rather than a 2 in 1 device. Induction is great, I use induction and won’t imagine going back to gas. But given that there is lots of electronics and heat involved. I don’t think they last will long as Gas or Electric (hot plate).

I don't think the maximum temperature has anything to do with the interior finishes. The Miele Speedoven has the same stainless interior, and it heats up to 475°F in most modes, or 500°F when using convection broil. It's rare that I need these temperatures, but sometimes they are useful. That's another reason why having both the CSO and the Speed Oven is nice.

We love to cook in the Miele CSO. We have the plumbed model, and that does a good job lowering the psychological barrier to always use steam when appropriate. Strongly recommended. The software for the user interface is a bit weird at times, but other than that, I feel that this appliances is orders of magnitude better-designed than the competitors. I spent a long time researching, and I am very happy that we picked the Miele. It's now a little over three years old and gets used a lot.

We have the XL and the size is plenty for most applications. It preheats extremely fast, and the nature of steam means that you can pack things very tightly and still cook evenly.

We do have a humongous (i.e. Bluestar) oven in the gas range though. I don't need that extra capacity very often, and I find having more ovens is more important than having large ovens. But it's nice to have options. Also, the Bluestar has an unrivaled broiler.

Just noticed an omission in your chart. Miele does have support for proofing, and a bunch of other special-purpose modes. I use it all the time. Very nice when making bread and you're in a rush. You won't get the same flavor profile as a slowly fermented sourdough, but it's nice to make a sourdough bread in less than a day, even if I forgot to get the starter going in time.

If I want a really dark and thick crust, I bake in my gas oven instead. I think it goes up to somewhere around 550°F. If I want a softer and thinner crust, then I either use the CSO or I use any one of my three ovens and bake in a Dutch oven. Even my big Dutch oven easily fits the Miele XL.

The Miele has a ton of built-in recipes, which is convenient when I just quickly want to boil potatoes, make rice, blanch vegetables, ... Of course you can look up or memorize the right settings, but it's nice that it's right there. It also makes it very easy to program your own recipes. We have things like "warming drawer", "crisp stale bread", "sous vide egg", ...

One of the coolest features that I discovered recently is that steam ovens are perfect for making gnocchi. I was always scared that they might fall apart during boiling, but that's impossible to happen when steaming!

The sous vide function is nice, if I don't want to bring out my immersion heater or want to skip vacuum sealing for some reason. The only downside is that it has a hard time limit at 10 hours. That can be a problem.

Thank you! These are all awesome points. I get too immersed in details even when I know not all of these modes are useful to me. Service is an important factor. I checked and there are repair providers for all these brands near me.

Oh, I did miss that about the proofing. I've updated the table. I luckily already have a proofer, but that sounds nice for when not everything fits.

I love hearing about all the cool things people do in their steam ovens. Steaming and then pan frying gnocchi sounds way better than boiling. I'm never done sous vide and I'm so curious to try. I'm a year plus out from our remodel, so I'll have to wait patiently to try it all this out!

Sous-vide is fun. It's just another cool tool to add to your repertoire. Doesn't work for everything, but there are a lot of dishes that work much easier or much tastier that way. And it's nice that I have both a steam oven and an immersion heater. Options are good.

If you are a little more serious about sous-vide or just cooking in general, I would strongly encourage you to look into getting a chamber vacuum. The fancy commercial models can cost thousands of dollars and be very bulky. But basic countertop models are in the $250-$800 range; and for home use, the lower end of this price range is likely good enough. The biggest issue is that these appliances are heavy and bulky. I have wanted one for years, but just couldn't find a place for it.

I finally found an entry-level model on WebrestaurantStore's site that is sufficiently compact to fit in my kitchen. It's so fun to use, not just for sous-vide and general food storage, but also for things like marinating and flavor extraction. Since you are remodeling right now, plan to have a spot for a vacuum sealer, even if you aren't immediately buying one.

Chamber vacuum sealers are infinitely better than the finicky consumer devices. The fact that I ca seal liquids is amazing. I made some cold-brew coffee with it the other day. Super fast to do. I haven't quite optimized all the settings just yet for best flavor, but it's looking very promising.

Suggest you go to showrooms or experience centers to actually see these brands and models in use. As has been suggested in other threads bring your own cookware (call ahead and ask if feasible) and prep your questions for the people staffing the showrooms/experience centers.

Excepting the few dealers mentioned on here -- Yale Appliance, Perch -- avoid advice from average (and even high-end) appliance dealers and their floor sales people. You want to connect with the sales consultants working for and trained by the brands you listed.

I don't know if the Miele Experience Centers work normally again, but before the pandemic, their cooking classes were super fun and very

I'll keep that in mind when I'm planning out counter space. I will likely get a countertop vacuum sealer, but definitely don't have the space now.

I've definitely noticed the difference in knowledge between going to the Miele experience center and an appliance dealer. It would be great if there are classes now, but otherwise I'm definitely planning some visits without bringing children. My first visit I boiled water and played around with the controls on the induction cooktop.

I made a pull out shelf for the chamber vacuum in the pantry. It's out of the way and doesn't clutter up the counters. But it's really accessible when I need it

@pgjs Thanks for compiling this information. I *think* that the Gaggenau can do some of the modes you have shown for the Miele but not for the Gaggenau. For example, here is a video about roasting in the Gaggenau. AFAIK, you can also broil without steam. Those are just a couple of examples. I do think you are correct that there is no bottom only heating, but I'm unsure how much of a limitation that is.

@TXGuy Thank for the video. It's helpful to see these ovens in action. Gaggenau in particular since I can't see a working one in person.

Yes, I think you can still do a lot without all the different modes and achieve good results. Miele suggests the bottom heat modes for pizza, quiche, and browning bottom crusts, but it definitely isn't a critical mode. As I was making the chart, I did feel that some of these modes were not necessary for me. Gaggenau just doesn't have a roast mode like Thermador, which I think is more top than bottom heat, so I didn't put that info in the chart.

These were the modes I saw in the instruction manual (https://media3.gaggenau.com/Documents/9001474923_C.pdf).

In modes 9 and 10, I'm not sure you can control the humidity. In the video you sent, they use a broil with humidity mode and it doesn't look like it, but that is an older model. Mode 11 looks like a convection broil, so maybe that's what you're thinking of? I didn't see a broil without a fan in the modes. I've never had convection broil, so I'm not sure how different it would be compared to a normal broil. I imagine I'll do most of my broiling in a convection oven that gets hotter though.

If you can't see a working Gaggenau in action then check that service and repairs over the life of the appliance will be available where you live.

@pgjs I do agree a bottom element would be nice for things like quiche. I am guessing you can approximate the Thermador roast mode since the Gaggenau has the top broiler element, but it may take some experimentation. I seem to remember that you can control the humidity in all modes, but that may not be correct. Reading page 58 of the manual, I am pretty sure you can broil without convection. I am definitely prepared for some experimentation and learning curve when I get my appliance!

@TXGuy that's cool. I hope you keep us posted on your gaggenau experience. Are you getting the convection oven too? When will your build be done?

@pgjs I will keep you posted, but it will be a while -- current projection is March of 2024 (!)

I am doing the 30" convection oven as well, mounting the CSO above it.

For home made Pizza’s, Gaggenau CO’s have additonal baking stone + additional bottom heater acessory is supposedly good for ”Italian” style pizza. (The type with very thin and crispy bases). Link > https://www.gaggenau.com/us/productlist/accessories/ovens/baking-stones

@Simple_Mind Yes, I am excited about that accessory. A poster here was expecting one as a gift, but I don't recall seeing any feedback about how he liked it.

@TXGuy Seems like there are some comments feedback on the pizza stone in german here. (i have put it thru google translate) https://www-kuechen--forum-de.translate.goog/forum/themen/gaggenau-pizzastein.22240/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

- It seems like its nice, and quicker to heat up than a std. pizza stone.

@TXGuy, I'm strongly considering the Gagg CSO with the Gagg convection installed under it. Once your project is complete, I'd love to learn about your experience with your Gagg ovens. Contrary to what I read here in an earlier post, I'm hearing from a variety of kitchen designers and salespersons that the Gagg ovens are the most reliable and long lasting of any ovens on the market. There's very little actual user reported longevity information that I can find online. My parents had Gagg wall ovens, no steam, for around 20 years before they moved from that home Their Gagg ovens were the best ovens I've ever used. They never needed any repairs during the 20 years my parents lived there. I do remember them referring to the manual a lot while learning to use the ovens.

@pgjs if you are not ordering anytime soon. Looks like Miele has annouced a new incremental update to the 7000 series DGC’s in Germany with Hydro Clean self cleaning, dish washer style. (basically what gaggenau has done with their plumbed steam ovens)

https://www.miele.de/en/m/hydroclean-now-makes-miele-combi-steam-ovens-self-cleaning-6151.htm

At least in germany, it seems like the HC Pro, its availible from their mid range 74xx line and up unlike the gagg which is only avalible in thier top end models.

@JJ Mekai I had missed your reply until now. I will certainly share my feedback, but my project has been plagued with delays, and what was expected to be a Jan 2023 completion as recently as Sep 2021 is now looking like a Apr 2024 completion, and I think that's an optimistic estimate. So you may not want to wait for me :) I have heard good things about reliability from KDs and salespeople as well. I am a big believer in "averages" and such, but I also realize that any specific instance of an appliance can have good or bad longevity, and that there is some luck involved with any person's individual experience.

@Simple_Mind Thanks for posting about this. I still like the Gaggenau for the side swing door, appearance, and some other features, but the cleaning mode on the Miele is a great addition and certainly whittles away at one of the Gaggenau advantages. Not needing a special cartridge like the Gaggenau is a big benefit IMHO, and probably dramatically lowers the per-cleaning cost of the Miele relative to the Gaggenau.

@TXGuy, thank you for checking back in. I understand delays. We're even delayed getting our septic put in. I'm not sure when we'll actually start building, probably sometime next year. Looking forward to hearing back from you when you are up and running.

@Simple_Mind Thank you! That's a nice new feature. I wonder when it'll get to the US.

I need to finalize my kitchen layout with my designer and order soon though. We're hopefully starting our remodel next August. One salesperson said it took around 12 months, but my builder said they were hearing about delays up to 18 months with Miele, (but not specifically for CSOs I think). So maybe by the time I get my CSO, they'll have updated the models.

@TXGuy That's a long delay! We're doing a remodel and have to move out during that time. We haven't gotten an estimate of how long the remodel will take. I'm afraid of how long we'll have to find alternate housing for after adding in delays. I'm planning on a Gaggenau CO, so depending on who finishes first, we can trade info. Best of luck with your house!

@pgjs Thanks, and likewise with your remodel. Hopefully you can get most things taken care of and staged prior to starting the project to minimize delays.

@JJ Mekai, I have previous models of the Gaggenau ovens installs a dozen years ago. As good as you've been told. If you have questions, let me know.

I though I was set in Wolf Combi then found out there are so many others out there. Will have to look into Miele’s. Thank you all for sharing

Wolf now has a plumbed steam oven. Not sure what if any other changes they’ve made.

@waybig90 Nice catch! One thing I immediately noticed at that I believe is a first -- the 30" model has a bigger cavity than the 24" model. I believe this is a unique offering in the market. but I may be misremembering.

The Wolf also has a broil (top) element which the previous model did not.

@Simple_Mind Wow, this makes it even more compelling and quite competitive. If they could solve the enamel chipping issue with their ovens, I'd consider their CSO and convection pair for my new build.

Hi, very helpful info here. I was looking at the new 30” Wolf CSO, plumbed with broiler… was going to pair it with an induction cooktop and a Wolf 30” wall oven. Does anyone know if Wolf has resolved the delamination issues with their oven interiors? … an alternative for us would be 48” df Thermador range with convection oven and small convection steam oven and gas + induction burner pair. The look of the Thermador is perfect for our period farmhouse, but I have some concerns about the amount of work to keep it clean. I also wonder if the small oven is a true CSO at least on par with Thermador’s separate CSO, or is it just an oven that adds steam … does anyone know?

pgjs - What items/meals would you prefer to have a 24" over a 30" ? For example, I'm looking at the Wolf 30" CSO which has a width of 25" and 2.4 cubic feet. Is there any benefit in choosing Wolf's smaller 24" CSO over their 30" ? I'm trying to think of what meals would benefit from a smaller oven cavity and I can't think of anything.

@Pi_pumkin_sol3 We haven't finished our remodel, but I would prefer the 30". I think the main benefit of the 24" is a quicker preheat. I went with the Miele XXL since my hope is that I'll do the majority of my baking in it.

Would love to get some thoughts about the new Wolfe 30” CSO Vs the Gaggenau 30” CSO (which is the same as their 24”..? Just a wider bezel?) We are first time SO users. No meat, just vegetarian cooking and baking…

@G S You are coorect that the Gaggenau 30" CSO is the same as the 24", just with a wider bezel. The newest 30" Wolf CSO has a larger cavity than the 24". This is a chance from the prior version of the Wolf CSO.

We have had a Thermador CSO for going on a year now. I didn’t intend on it’s being our primary oven, but it is. I’d thought I might mind it’s not being plumbed, but that’s really not been an issue. It does an insanely good job of roasting chicken.

@theotherjaye, thank you for your comment. I expect my CSO to be my primary oven. I'm using an Anova countertop steam oven now while I wait to build. I find it makes great roasted chicken and pretty much everything else too. But cleaning it is quite a chore. That's why I was thinking of going with the Gagg. It has cleaning cartridges that I understand do a great job of cleaning. How have you been cleaning your Thermador? Has it been a chore?