Piddy, first being rescues who knows what occured or stress events prior. Some info. Salt ok for goldfish (well I raised them outdoors and inside as kid and used a pinch per Dr Innes) (I realize there are differing opinions on this so not judging one way or another) Unless you used huge amounts this mho had nothing to do with their deaths. (although I think I read somewhere it can exacerbate ammonia poisoning? BUT not sure if memory serves)(or was that help in nitrate nitrite poisoning) the old rule one inch per gallon (I read this and makes mucho sense) is ok for small flatish fish, but larger fish body mass needs to be considered. Ie a huge paccu for example might be 10 inches long well - the rule would provide a way inadequate tank size for such a fish. So need to go by mass. My first thought was too small a tank for four fish.. Just too much waste with goldfish so more tank for fewer fish. I said one in five gallon. That said they were relatively small, you had a filter, so that doesn't make sense to me, unless the water wasn't cycled, and fish waste (they are major waste producers) Had the tank been cycled? Ammonia spike that may have been missed? did you check ammonia? If you are changing water, is this such and amount (was filter new, ie no stuff, gravel or filter material with bacteria in it) that you cause recycling again. I have done much recent research on gourami disease and found also information on viral crossing with goldfish to gourami and other fishes now.. Almost epidemic overseas, an hidden... so could be something not to do with you at all. but, again, ammonia and too many fish in too small a space. Not re size but waste, esp if not cycled. How many water changes if not cycled - would need one a day. That said, I know when young some who had fish in bowls and they hung on for weeks and months sometimes longer as person changed water (ps was not me!) so maybe they were not well to begin with.. You as you say, have experience... sometimes in old innes book, he would say use water from pond or established tank, feed live worms, so on, salt water cure... to bring them about. Any other symptoms, spots, diseases that you notice. or just run down and die? Best Sherry How was their breathing. Gill coloration? Any obvious symptoms. Sometimes when I buy new fish, and am quaranteening one just quitely dies, just lays down and floats off. (I seperate and give low light planted tank for their ease) I figure they often have survived a nasty trip, horrible conditions at pet store (low ph, hose to fill tanks, guys often don't check temp, cooked some fish once, so on) so they just can't take it. poor things so maybe not knowing what they had been through prior, and even with your care in transportation, and new home they were just tired from stress and went over edge. (I make really long all day sometimes more water changes, dribble method (my petstore has extremely low ph 5, so go slow one degree in 24 hours is max per day. ) was the transfer to much a shock from where they were prior?

This is an example of what Simpleton is talking about. I have four rotting as we speak and am in a tizzy of getting them dug, washed, trimmed, soaked in Physan 20, dusted with sulfur, set out to dry. Some plants I gave a soil drench, just because they were yellowing. I know there are several kinds of fungal rot and at least one kind of bacterial crown rot. I decided on Physan 20 from having read stuff from orchid sites, where reality is not hush, hush. I had it here and ready, and pulled out the plants early by sniffing the base of any yellowed or old leaves as I removed them. You absolutely cannot miss that smell. Only the first one flopped over--after I knew that smell I didn't need to wait that long. All four are from the same LA seller, never grew a bit, and rotted after the first rain in an unfertilized organic bed surrounded by healthy daylilies and other daylilies received and planted the same day, that are all fine. That's just ridiculous. I sent them an email to request advice and inquire about replacements if my attempts fail. No reply so far but they've not had much time so I can't say anything bad just yet. Even it they won't replace any, the bonuses I received were great and better than these ones that are sick -- so far. It seems pretty darned straight forward, and while the society certainly is not responsible for policing sellers, I'm still annoyed that on the AHS site under FAQ 'What pests and diseases effect daylilies?' all the pests are mentioned but no diseases are addressed. Not leaf streak, not rust, and not crown rot. And why ever not???? Must each hobbiest reinvent the wheel for themselves? The problems are not really secret, as their own Daylily Dictionary gives excellent treatment of both terms -- if you know to look them up in the first place. A society that states it's purpose is "educational and scientific"-- to support the betterment of the daylily and public interest, is shooting itself in the foot with this attitude of "don't mention it," and it seems to trickle down to many enthusiasts as a mandate. I understand they wouldn't want to advertise and highlight problems (although they have no problems with information such as "deer occasionally eat" daylily buds -- I raise my brows at the word 'occasionally', although from the prospective of a year in the life of one hungry deer it may seem occasionally.) I found enough information to know the problems and pick a treatment. My point is, I [i]should[/i] have found it easily and authoritatively on the AHS website. I feel I found it despite the AHS. They have a responsiblity to the public trust that comes with their status and authoriy, and should not behave as a thinly veiled marketing tool retouching reality like the photoshop pictures on a hybridizers webshop. Otherwise, the whole site should have "advertisement" at the top of every page like I see on pseudo-articlistic ad pages in magazines. Trust is easier to keep than regain, and public interest will dose dive with loss of public trust. Where's the leadership? (Okay, jackarias IS great on this forum, I'll give the AHS that one.) Instead I lurked about orchid forums, carniverous plant forums, and talked to rosarians. Perhaps the AHS thinks the [i]full truth[/i] might scare off a potential new hobbiest, but instead they aggravate actual hobbiests. I find that very short-sighted. It's not these potential losses that bother me exactly --although obviously they are bothering me a lot, in their own way -- since I know 4 of 90 isn't much of a loss and I researched enough to expect it. Rather it's the way these issues are handled, hushed, and blown off repeatedly with feigned confusion, mis-information, and pleas of ignorance by first one stray AHS-er and then another. It's pervasive, this stonewall resistance to see tarnish on the shiny "perfect perennial." After a while, a few people seem positvely delusional and not just on this forum. "Focus on the positve" doesn't need to mean be blind to the negative. I can imagine the next post "Well, join the AHS and make it better!" -- like that's an attractive lure into the hobby-- but I don't know if that means I should take the red pill or the blue one. I just wish everybody would relax, accept the obvious, and deal with the reality instead of straining so hard to shore up the status quo of "perfect perennial." Whoever adopted that slogan needs a thump on the head. Now I may get hit harder in the next few days, and eat these words, but I think I know as much about everything as a newbie possibly could--and probably more than most--about many aspects of my new hobby. None of these issues put me off. I think my daylilies will be the joy of my life for many years to come even though (of course!) I hope my fungicides sit on the shelf until I worry about their expiration date, and these are the last four daylilies that ever rot on me. Right now, I'm just embarrassed for the AHS. They love their daylilies and their members, but they don't seem to have faith in either one of them.

Ah, now you've hit the nail on the head so to speak. The reason I go to Tinkers db first before AHS is because there are more photos and it is easy for me to donate photos of those they don't have. In fact I do that often as I see it as a way to contribute to the "daylily community" at large. I do recognize that Tinkers is limited, especially on being updated with current releases, so go to AHS for those details. I've also noted issues with the parentage listings coming back wrong. For example if the plant you are researching has name "wordx" and another plant is "wordx + anotherword" children from both plants will show up if you use the "children" button to see offspring. I regularly used advanced search options on both db's for doing historical research on regional hybridizers & also for specific plant research. While I go to Dave's for iris research, I find the advanced search options way more convenient on Tinkers and AHS db.

Studies have shown a great many home refrigerators' temperature are way off. Too warm. I wonder if that's not a large part of it, plus the coating mix. I don't really love chicken but I do roast one about every 6 weeks, primarily for stock, and I don't find that it tastes much different the next day or two. But I also don't like white meat, so that often goes into a chicken curry salad or something. But I have to say that even when I was on Dr. Pat's diet for a while, I broiled the chicken breasts for four days at a time, and they were just about the same on day four as on day 1, even if I got lazy and micro-ed them. My fridge is stuck at 34º, so maybe that helps, and I store in glasslock. I do usually buy Murray's chicken, for whatever that's worth.