I've used general contractors for remodels. They might have cabinet people they have experience working with and may be able to refer to to a designer they like, for example, but they didn't sell any lines themselves.

I'd look for one of those: a plain old general contractor. Ask neighbors, check NextDoor, coworkers, etc.

If you find a one-stop shop kinda contractor and you like their cabinets and they're willing to do the extra things you need, it could possibly be a good fit so don't not talk to them.

It's hard to compare and you never know what you're going to get and I sound like Forrest Gump sorry....

Have you talked very in-depth with the design shops? We found our general contractor through our kitchen designer. We didn't book through her, but she was able to recommend three good general contractors. I would expect a good design shop to have a good Rolodex of people to recommend.

"I would expect a good design shop to have a good Rolodex of people to recommend."

That may be so, but you can't get leverage over subs from a Rolodex and from being a onesie to subs. That leverage only comes from being a successful General Contractor. The GCs have the subs you want booked solid right now.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC agreed. I was offering that a designer might help them find a general contractor. Not suggesting a DIY hiring of subs.

@cgs our designer did exactly what Verbo outlined. Designed a layout, advised on materials, drew up the plans we needed for permits, and helped us through the difficult process of finding a general contractor (they are booked solid too). I'm happy that our designer and our contractor are independent of each other. The contractor has offered a few design ideas we didn't care for. If we were working with a design-build firm, we wouldn't have had the confidence to say no.

Cabinets and counters are the foundation of your future kitchen enjoyment over the years. Find what you will be the happiest with. Check with the manufacturer for local companies they recognize. See which of those can work on your project. If segments are outside their preferred scope of work, you'll need to source that separately. That's more complexity. It is a requirement to move your project to completion. That's how you'll do it. Focus on the goal. Not the process.

I thought the GC would deal with permits, etc, not the designer.

It seems the GCs I find online near me all do kitchen design. They're remodelers, so they need to be able to do design. I don't know--it's confusing. I may talk to a couple kitchen design/build centers and see what they come up with, though I think I have a pretty good understanding of what I want and what can be done. My current kitchen layout mostly makes sense. I just need a few tweaks. Nothing earth shattering.

@User and @mcarroll16, I get what you're saying, but trying to find a designer that doesn't also off cabinets, and then find a GC that doesn't also offer design or cabinets seems difficult. And I want a contractor experienced in kitchens. I don't need one that builds sunrooms or does major home remodels. I feel like a modest kitchen reno would be too small a job to some of the remodeling GCs I see online.

One kitchen GC that had great reviews here seems to only offer Waypoint cabinets, which have terrible reviews here. Most have offerings from 3 or 4 different cabinet companies, so I feel like I should be able to find something.

I may get a design or two. I hate to waste someone's time and I know they won't give me the design if I don't use the, but I think it would be helpful. I went to Cabinet Discounters and the guy there was super helpful and talked to me for a while. I got some ideas just from talking to him and he's the only person that's given me any kind of price idea. He said depending on brand (of the 3 they offer), it's an average of about $1100-$1500 per cabinet.

The GC applies for permits. But s/he does so using drawings from your designer and/or architecht and/or engineer. For us, the benefit of an independent designer was that she could look at the entire space, and design a layout from scratch to optimize the space. She suggested a different window size, new lighting plan, and changing a beam. A cabinet-shop person probably wouldn't do that. The benefit of having a contractor who does handle full home remodels is that he can handle anything that comes up. With an older home that's had two known water leak issues in the kitchen, we're happy to have a guy whose crew can address any problem that becomes apparant when the drywall is opened up.

If you are just getting new cabinets with a slightly modified layout, and you are confident that your kitchen has no hidden structural issues, then you might be fine with a cabinet shop design, or a "one stop" kitchen-only remodeler. Just know going in that you are placing a bet that your true needs are very limited.

It sounds like there are 3 basic ways to go

1. go to a design/build shop. They won't deal with my floor, lighting, etc

2. get a GC that designs and has a showroom and I choose from there. They can deal with everything

3. get a kitchen designer and a separate GC, neither of whom is dealer for any particular cabinet line.

#1 won't work--I need all the things done and have some floor issues I need taken care of.

#3--I think this is the answer to what I was asking, but I can't even find those people. I'm sure they exist, but I don't know where. I live in an area with a gazillion options (DC suburbs) and have yet to find someone who is only a kitchen designer. I don't know anyone who has done a kitchen renovation that way. But after reading the comments here and researching a bit more, I'm also not sure I need that. I'm keeping the footprint. I have a general idea of what's possible as far as tweaking things.

So I think I have to go with #2 and keep trying to find a GC that offers a line of products i like or will allow me to choose something outside what they offer if that's even possible. It seems you have to buy cabinets through a dealer and the dealers are all design/build shops or GCs.

I think the "independent designer" category is a bit squishy. Our designer kinda/sorta sells cabinets too. That is, she works for a shop that reps 3 cabinet lines, and she will strongly recommend one of those lines for your kitchen. But, the design work is for a fee. We paid about $3k, and we got a design that we could take to any other cabinet seller, and any contractor. That was the "independent" part. I guess what I'm saying is, don't rule out cabinet shops, just look for ones that have staff designers where you pay for the design.

@mcarroll16 Ah, gotcha. Thanks. I haven't come across those ,but haven't specifically asked about that either.

@User Why do you say that? I'm not sure getting a designer online who can never come look at my kitchen is better than having a designer who can come here and look and talk to us.

Just for some background, some friends and I did a whole house gut job on an investment property. I drew the floor plans on graph paper and that's what we used. It worked. I also designed our deck, which has a couple interesting things you don't see on other decks. I don't really feel like I need to pay someone $3000 to tell what I've already figured out, or to tell me one new thing that may or may not be helpful.

I have one GC that I may get a design/quote from that carries cabinets that I think would be fine. I'd like to find one more GC to compare to. As I said, that means I have to see if any of their cabinet lines would be ok. Or maybe I'll ask one of the design shops. I can't keep the design, but I can see it.

I sympathize because the reality is that there aren't many independent kitchen designers and those which exist are not interested in relatively small kitchen projects because there simply isn't enough money for the project to make sense.

I do think that there are talented and experienced kitchen designers who work at kitchen design stores. You just have to locate them. When I was originally planning my remodel I went to lots of different kitchen design stores because I also was interested in viewing different cabinet lines. By doing that I got some sense of what it would be like to work with specific designers and so one could make an informed decision. For the most part a designer with experience and talent isn't going to be working for Loewes or Home Depot and there is probably would also be working for design stores that sell the better lines of cabinets. When I was looking most of the cabinet stores carried a range of brands and also one store would have Kraftmaid as their cheapest option whereas it would be the most expensive option at a different store - just an example.

When I finally got around to actually doing my remodel, the project had expanded so that I hired a real designer who recommended a GC who she worked with on many projects. In my experience my GC was great in terms of construction issues and making things work but he wouldn't be the person I would use to actually design a kitchen - either in terms of function or aesthetics. I had a great relationship with the GC and so he went above and beyond - even now but I also think that having a long standing and future relationship with my designer must have helped in terms of the process.

A kitchen design center would probably have recommendations for qualified GC. While you as an individual home owner wouldn't have clout theoretically the design center who would bring them future business.

Some of the design issues that have to do with aesthetics you might solve by finding a designer who would be willing to work with you on an hourly basis to help you select finishes like tiles, flooring and counters. They could accompany you to the tile store or stone yard and provide advise based on an overall design concept that you and they create.

@Helen Thanks. I'm taking the approach you mentioned--visiting lots of places and getting an idea about the cabinets as well as the designers there. At one place, I knew I wouldn't click with the person.

@User I'm suring hiring a designer would be helpful, but as Helen said, it's hard to find independent ones and I don't know that I need to spend the money on one. Sure, there might be things I'm stuck on because it's all I know, but that's ok. I'm happy with my kitchen for the most part. I don't need huge changes and I don't want anything super specialized like a pullout spice cabinet.

Well there's always the free approach--throw up a scale plan of your space, and see what that Houzz hivemind suggests. :)

Ohhh, I like that option lol. If I can figure out how to do it, I might. I've just been trying online kitchen design tools and none of them seem that helpful.

One issue is that I'm thinking of shrinking my sink cabinet from 36" to 33" so that my 12" drawers can become 15" drawers and hold a pullout trashcan. But if I do that, the sink won't be centered on the window. It's actually not exactly centered now but not really noticeable. What I really need to to is replace the window with a slightly smaller one so it shifts over too, but that sounds really expensive so I don't think I will.

Personally don't think it's important to center the sink. Our designer's advice at the start of our project was to make sure the sink was either totally within window space, or totally outside of it. Not straddling window and wall. As long as that goal was met, she didn't think it was important to center the sink on a window.

Just draw a rough sketch of your kitchen, and the outlines of adjoining rooms. Show dimensions of each window, each stretch of wall, and size of each cabinet and appliance you have currently planned. To scale on graph paper is nice, but not required. Take a picture and post it here. You will get great advice.

@cgs - FWIW I have a small kitchen - I bet it is smaller than your kitchen as it is an urban galley kitchen in a high rise.

When I remodeled I needed to eke out every square inch in terms of function. I opted for a 36" sink with a ledge and it really works for me.

Because of the ledge I keep the grid suspended on the ledge almost all of the time. This is a very solid grid with some holes for draining as necessary. I can use it as an extension of the counter and it also works well for draining produce and hand washed items. Also anything prepped over the sink is much easier to clean.

That said my sink has the drain on the left and towards the back - i.e. what is called rear offset. That way the pipes (and garbage disposal) don't cut the sink cabinet in half. This way I was able to fit a roll out garbage can under the sink which fits the standard kitchen size bags. This was critical for me because I had no good space for a trash can since anyplace in the kitchen would block a lower cabinet.

The offset drain also makes it easier to stack stuff because I can put dishes or whatever to one side without blocking the drain since the drain is on the side of the other half.

We went with an Architecture Interior Design Firm. Wendi was knowledgeable about all the areas of our project, structural (including building code) and aesthetic. I could tell from the ideas she had from just looking at our space that she was much more than a kitchen/bath designer. She reimagined the spaces. We ended up removing soffits, changing ceilings and reconfiguring our kitchen and master bath in ways I never could have fathomed.
Wendi did not sell cabinetry but did have working relationships with custom and semi custom cabinet shops from previous projects. We spoke with a couple, visited their shops and were able to find a good match.

So that’s what I would look for, an Architecture Interior Design Firm. You can see Wendi Zampino’s (Lafayette, CA) website for reference.

Sorry to hijack, but @Helen, what sink did you go with to get a left offset? We really wanted that (our DW will be on the left), but the only options I could find were Julian--out of our budget--and Create Good Sinks--nervous about their weird drain size.

@cgs a 33" cabinet and 29" sink, left justified with the window, is exactly what we are doing. We're moving up from a sink that is only 18" wide at the bottom, so 29" feels cavernous. Our tiny sink is also left-justified with the window, and that's never bothered me.

@mcarroll16 - My sink is a copper farmhouse style from Havens Metal - it was expensive but it was my first splurge.

@cgs I had a regular sink prior to my remodel and I did have a cutting board that fit over the sink which helped given my small kitchen. However the advantage to the ledge is that the cutting board is much more stable and also the larger size enabled me to fit both the garbage disposal and a regular size trash container under the sink.

I also had a rollout installed for the sink cabinet so that I was able to utilize as much as possible for storage since nothing got lost in the dark regions in back. I had them clad the interior of the sink cabinet with formica as well to make it easier to clean it if necessary.

Ok, here's my current kitchen layout. Left side is outside wall. Top side goes to dining room. Right has basement door and hall. Bottom is open to family room.

So I'm thinking of

• making the sink cabinet 33 instead of 36 (sink is currently ~1.5 inches from the left side of the window and ~3.5" from the right side.)
• which would allow me to make the 12" drawers to the right of it 15" and hold a trash can.
• The island cabinet is 36" with a center stile and pullout drawers on top, so I lose about 10" of space. I could make that 30" and add a 12" set of drawers on the table end. That would be 42", which would still fit under the current island countertop. It just wouldn't hang over as much on the table end.

Alternatively

• Keep the 36" sink and put a trash can under the sink as @Helen mentioned.
• Or get rid of the 9" cutting board/baking sheet cabinet, move the dishwasher and sink down (though that gets weirder with the window) and have more counter space where I need it. We could get a range with a bottom drawer and store baking sheets there.

Ideas welcome!

I think you've got great ideas. A few comments:

1. Trash cans are one of the trickiest tradeoffs in a small space. For me, an under-sink trash can only works in a one-cook kitchen, or possibly a one-person house. Someone always wants to throw something away while the cook is at the sink. So freaking annoying. On the other hand, losing a 15" drawer bank to trash is a tough storage loss. So it's about what you need to store, vs. how much under-sink trash would annoy you. Only you can make that call.

2. My cutting board/baking sheet drawer is the only thing I like about my current kitchen. So much better than a pile of stuff in the drawer under the oven. They are great for baking sheets, cooling racks, cutting boards, and platters. Could you make the 12" cabinet right of the sink a tray cabinet, and then put a wider bank of drawers between the DW and the French doors? It looks like you have another 12"-18" of space there. But the way the cabinets sit behind the French door wall is confusing--maybe there's something structural blocking that space?

3. Your kitchen is small, and you've got a table right there. Consider skipping seating at the island entirely. You could have 12" cabinets on the back instead for more storage.

4. Consider making your island work side one 36" wide drawer unit, or even one 42" drawer unit. That maximizes your overall storage, and there are great solutions for organizing drawer interiors to store different things in the same space. If that doesn't appeal, I might go for a 27" drawer and a 15" drawer. 12" drawer units lose so much space to the cabinet and drawer sides, you aren't going to fit much at all inside.

Thanks @mcarroll16.

1. I hear you about under sink trash. I think that might be a pain. Plus it means opening a door and sliding out vs just sliding out. Currently our trash can is in the dining room right through that doorway at the top of the diagram. It's a holdover from when the kids were little and we had a baby gate up with the trash on the other side. It doesn't bother me that it's there but it really confuses guests lol.

2. There is a structural limitation. The kitchen is bumped out from the rest of the house, so that wall next to the little 9" cabinet is just a wall to outside. Nothing wider can go there. Is your baking sheet thing a drawer where they lay flat or a cabinet where they stand up? I do like that they can stand up, but would be ok with them being in a stove drawer I think. But I will probably just keep the 9" cabinet.

3. I have pondered getting rid of the island seating. I'll need to think about that more. I never sit there. Guests do very occasionally (I mean, I almost never have guests and when I do, they don't sit there much). My daughter sits there a lot but she just moved out. My husband sits there sometimes. I'll definitely give that more thought.

4. We have a 12" drawer unit now and you're right, it's tiny, but we've managed to make it work, and a new drawer unit would have under drawer rails so it would add an inch or two. But, I'll take a look at the really wide drawers and how they could be divided. Or try to determine if my pots and pans could fit in a 27" set of drawers.

Also, all this depends on whether my husband has really given up on getting a hood instead of over the range microwave. If not, I need to shove the microwave under the island.

Thanks for giving me more to think about. Who needs a kitchen designer!

Ha! I'm sure a designer could do better than I can. To answer you on trays, my cabinet is one where they stand on their side. First time I've ever had it, and I love it. What's going on in the other corner of your breakfast nook? That bump in the lower right corner. Is that a cabinet? Could the microwave go there?

The lower right is just a wall that that goes into the family room. Behind it is the garage. If need be, I'll put the microwave under the island.

What do you have planned for the blind corner at the top left corner; maybe a lazy susan? What's behind Wall #1? If it is another room, you might be able to have cabinet doors on that side of the wall to maximize the blind corner.

We'll probably have a lazy susan (which is what we have now) or a super susan. I like the space of a super susan, but I like the spinning door of a lazy susan. Those hinged doors on super susans seem a little annoying. My dad has one and it's extra annoying because it's right next to the stove, which sticks out a little. But even without that, I don't love those hinged doors. I've seen other pullout options also, but don't like them. And I've thought about the weird corner drawers, but I think that would be too much space lost. Half the time now with the lazy susan, I open it by spinning it with my foot lol.

Behind the wall (on the stove side) is the dining room. Hadn't thought about extra doors, but I'm not sure I want that. I can't think of how it would look ok unless we kind of put a cutout/pass-through to the dining room. I don't think that would be useful there.

Do cabinet manufacturers even make regular old lazy susans anymore? I've thought a lot more about this and I do think this is the best way to go for the space that we have. I read some old threads here about corners and considered voiding the corner. On one side that would make my 24" cab into a 33" which would be nice. But on the other side, I'd have a 9" space. I looked at 9" pullouts and I don't like them and I already have a slim cabinet for cookie sheets and cutting boards. If I ditch the pullout trash idea (or move it to the island), then a void corner could work. I'd have a 24" base there next to the sink.