And we wonder why we have issues with homelessness. There is a huge population that is just a paycheck away from living on the streets if affordable to the masses housing does not become more widely available.

I have to think it is just a matter of greed on behalf of the property owners. Yes, the costs of maintaining a property have increased but not anywhere close to the same degree as rental costs have skyrocketed. Rents are now 2-3 times of a typical mortgage payment.

When DH and were planning a temporary move to LA, we were amazed that appliances were not included in rentals. You rented them as you might rent furniture. weird for us.

There are two separate issues: Yes, rental costs are absolutely astronomical and will probably continue to rise since the costs of buying a house are also high.

Full size oven: Since buying an air fryer, I think I've used the oven only a couple of times, once for a large casserole and once when my grand daughter and I were baking a home made cake for her mother. It would not be a big deal for me to do without one.

A couple in our area recently won $1M. It's shocking to realize that they'd only be able to buy a regular side-split house and not have any money left over. Just for perspective purposes, they may already own their own home.

I don't use my full size oven often either, Lucille, mainly for baking bread and pizza on my big cast iron pizza pan, but it does get used, as do more than one of my stove top burners.

Supply and demand govern the price of houses. So long as governments oppose building adequate housing, the prices will be unaffordable for many, but obviously, not everyone. Houses represent the most important financial assett of the average person. Democracy allows people to protect their assets by giving them an outsized say in what gets built near them. This problem requires political will to do unpopular things in order to obtain redress, and political will, is not something I expect from politicians, so good luck making the needed changes.

My daughter had trouble finding an afforable place in Lexington last year. She ended up in a dive place with multiple issues with the apartment and appliances. No heat, no stove for a month or more, broken lock which they busted open, damaging the doorframe leaving her and her belongings exposed, etc... Some guy also got shot in her little complex. I'm glad she's out of there now. She's living further west and the apartment she has is really nice and not overly expensive for now.

I know my little house is supposedly worth $210,000 right now. Insane. I keep getting flyers in my mailbox, emails and text messages from realtors wanting to buy my house. I have no idea how they're getting my phone number.

Around here, it's not the governments opposing affordable, workforce housing, but the established, older homeowners who object because they think it will reduce the value of their property. They've stymied several initiatives by our city to build apartments and mixed use complexes in the past several years.

I know FL was recently reported to be one of the highest cost areas to live. Worse is a state gov't that is keeping back funds that were allocated for helping low income people with housing. Many desperate people aren't even aware that help exists.

Around here, it's not the governments opposing affordable, workforce housing, but the established, older homeowners who object because they think it will reduce the value of their property. They've stymied several initiatives by our city to build apartments and mixed use complexes in the past several years.

How do the homeowners accomplish their ends? They surely don't personally block building new houses and apartments using their own armies. They use the government's zoning process, and environental review process to block increasing housing supply in order to increase the worth of their property.

If the politicians had a back bone, housing would be built, they don't so it's not.

Can and would you rent without being able to have a stove?

We all do what our finances and priorities dictate. If you can afford better and prioritize that, then young get better. If you cannot affird better, then you cope. Some may be able to afford better, but would choose to economize in this area since they don't cook anyway or prefer other means of cooking. Ovens in China are not usual, even in affluent houses.

They band together and show up at city council meetings and generally make a stink, they create petitions, etc.. Seems a lot of suburban homeowners agree with the premise that affordable housing initiatives will degrade their personal quality of life. There is an element of veiled racism as well. This is a city that was strictly segregated well into the 1970s.

Exactly, the politicians and governments let them have their way. They, the cities, have the power to stop it. They choose not to exercise the power because it's easier and how they continue to get elected. Seggregation required judicial solutions because the morally deficient could not be reasoned with.

You say, "they band together." Keep in mind the environment which they abuse has no seat at the table and the people they deprive of housing have no seat at the table.

Not too sure our city council has the power to override its citizens just because they believe something is the right thing to do...

Are you being facetious, Carol? The city council votes, not the citizens, unless you are still living in colonial MA.

Need must. If getting an apartment I could afford meant living without a full sized oven, then I'd only bake small batches of cookies and smaller quantities at a time. Not a huge deal -- most of my oven use is in a countertop convection oven as it is, and I use my full sized oven probably a couple of times a month, max. If the costs were the same, I'd choose an apartment in the better area for me than the apartment further away but with a full sized oven.

Not being facetious. Different places have different structures of local government. If over a certain amount of voters here are submitting petitions to the city council, I believe it has clout.

And I use our oven a lot, but as TV stated, needs must...

Last month I made an offer on a home that was $86k over asking price. Today I learned that it sold for $185.k over asking price. This is insanity!

There has been talk of this bubble starting to deflate, reportedly already signs of the market slowing...

Interest rates rising will affect demand where people do not buy in cash, no doubt. That leaves the SF Bay practically untouched, I imagine Vancouver is the same as we are.

I've watched many 1930's movies where it took 2 to 4 people to afford a small apartment when first starting out. FWIW I just watched a news report which stated 1 out of 5 homes are owned by investors to rent but 55% of Chicago's occupied units are rentals and they've got along fine for decades.

The bright side, in 30 years all the silent generation and baby boomer generation will be dead (including me) and adds up to 92 million people, there will be plenty of homes to buy soon.

My condo just sold for $400K over asking -- but my agent purposely listed it obviously low. It's some crazy sales game he wanted to play that I don't understand, but I told him I'd go for it for a week.

My 1 bedroom is $1050 a month and I got discount cuz I've lived in complex for 8 years. A New tenant's rent (for same apartment) is $1300. Have all new appliances but have to pay utilities. Yes it's crazy what they get for rents so I consider myself lucky.

A local Property Manager guru states that he's getting a lot of calls for people wanting to rent their homes out, because they couldn't get the sales price they wanted. Yet....my neighbors are flipping their homes. One guy owned the home for 3 years and made $1.25million profit! That's insane! They often sell in ONE day!

It is just sooo wrong the way corporations are buying up "first home" type houses, 'fixer uppers' and not fixing them, offering huge cash over asking price, then renting them out for $$$$. It will ruin neighborhoods as well as keep young couples out of the market.

"Home Ownership" has so many variables. What IS a 'home'? How big is it? Is it a freestanding SFH? A condo? A trailer? (A castle? ha-ha.) Does one own the land or lease it? A table showing percentages of ownership in different nations has Switzerland is at the low end (where I think you must pay to breathe the air) and Kosovo near the top (89%). US and Canada are at about two-thirds. Home ownership seems to be a relatively new aspiration.

When we were looking for a rental investment in Chicago, I was astounded to see HOW MANY two- and three-flat multi-family homes had been built here in the early 1900's. They were/are good-sized, with 1500 sq ft per flat; high ceilings; lovely wood floors and trim. Looking at some, we met people who were third generation residents in the same buildings who never desired home *ownership*. It was all new to this suburbanite!

I've been in the same house since 1999. Many of my friends are buying new/bigger houses to have larger yards, music rooms, bigger bedrooms for their kids, etc. However, they are faced with higher interest rates and high home prices. I thought this article was interesting. When the Best Available Home Is the One You Already Have

"It is just sooo wrong the way corporations are buying up "first home" type houses,"

1. You or someone else said this before recently. Can you cite examples of where this is happening on a large scale? I've seen no mention of it in the business press. I'm not aware of this happening where I am. If there are customers willing to pay the requested rental rates for the refurbished units, how is this any different from a grocery store buying bananas for 25 cents a pound and selling them for 50 cents a pound?

2. The word "corporation" isn't a negative or derogatory term. The plumber who comes to your home to clear a drain likely does business using a corporation. So too your dentist down the road. It's a very, very common and legitimate form of business entity, there are too many around to count.

FWIW, there's a long conversation on our local nextdoor site about the topic of single family zoning started by a person who's in favor of ending it so more multiple family units and ADUs can be built to accommodate the high demand here, and the negatives replies are fast and furious.

The sizes of our houses has gone up a great deal over the years.

Bigger houses, smaller families. Odd.

Zalco--I think about that a lot. Bigger houses--smaller families. What happened to kids sharing a room? Since when did everyone need SO MUCH personal space? Growing up, all we did in our bedroom was sleep and homework.

From https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renters-vs-homeowners-statistics:

Homeowners vs Renters Statistics

Last Updated: April 10, 2022Highlights. Homeowner vs. renter statistics reflect a decline in homeownership, with 35% of American households renting their home.In the last financial quarter of 2021, the nationwide homeownership rate was 65.5%, a 0.5% decline year-over-year (YoY).
As of 2019, 78.7 million out of a total 122.8 million households own their homes.
44.1 million households rent their homes.
2.7% of occupied housing units are second homes.
10.5% of all housing units are vacant.

"It is just sooo wrong the way corporations are buying up "first home" type houses, 'fixer uppers' and not fixing them, offering huge cash over asking price, then renting them out for $$$$. It will ruin neighborhoods as well as keep young couples out of the market."

Why is it wrong to buy houses and rent them out? Whether it's a business or a single person......Just about every community needs more rental housing, and there's nothing wrong with renting rather than buying -- it's the right choice for a lot of people at certain times in their lives (including families, young couples, and empty-nesters). In my opinion, renting got a bad rap as somehow a bad financial choice (it isn't always) or not appropriate for an adult (it isn't, ever). In more than a few situations, it's the better choice over buying.

There are a lot of moving parts to to this - I understand that for a number of renters, their landlords are selling their properties to big rental companies and people are then evicted so the new landlords can raise the rent - often out of reach financially for people who have been living in the same place for many years. Marketplace.org & OnTheMedia.org have done some very good reporting on this over the past several years. This happened to a young man I work with, who is living with his sister and grandmother. They received notice that they had to move out because their building was sold and scrambled to find another place to live. In many places, once you have an eviction on your record, many other places will not rent to you - and it doesn't matter why you were evicted either. People get pushed into shadier and shadier neighborhoods because of that.

Did you know there's an eviction lab at Princeton University studying this?

Regarding the bigger homes/smaller families thing, and why so people want more personal space.....

It's just me and SO. We have 3 bedrooms and 3 full baths, acreage,and he has a huge shop. We do not strictly NEED this much space.

But neither of us had room or personal space growing up. We both shared rooms and 1 bathroom with numerous people, had no privacy and no personal space that was our own growing up. Now we have it all. That's why we picked this place. He has his space out in his shop, I have extra bedrooms for my treadmill and whatever else, and neither is in the way of the other. Just because we can certainly get by living in a one bedroom apartment with no yard, no pets, no garden,no shop, no extra anything doesn't mean that it would be a joyful life. Its okay to want and have more than you need.

Growing up, all we did in our bedroom was sleep and homework.

I remember that too. But these days often kids stay inside much more than they used to. There doesn't seem to be as much playing ball, roller skating, bicycling and so on. Even the adults don't get out, garden, or just sit outside and enjoy flowers and birds and all.

I have no issue with people having more than what they need. My husband and I lived in what was probably one of the smallest houses in our town, with our four boys. We now live in a house many times bigger than what anybody would need.

My issue is with people complaining about affordability and then wanting much more house than what is necessary.

Growing up, all we did in our bedroom was sleep and homework.

Interesting point. Growing up I did my homework and played in my bedroom as well. I am an only child, so plenty of privacy. Today children do their homework at the kitchen table/island until they are in middle or high school.

Parents feel tremendous pressure to give their children their own bedroom with their own bathroom.

What is necessary is a matter of opinion though.

NO stove. The tenant would be responsible for appliances. I hope that catches on here. 😉

Are there any Californians, or Angelinos, who can confirm my experience of looking in vain for apartments with appliances?

Interestingly, I just finished listening to this from 99% Invisible - it's mainly about Toronto, but it speaks to the larger idea of how and why so many areas are facing difficulties, when it comes to housing...

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-missing-middle/

"...there’s a term for it. The “missing middle.” That moniker can be confusing, because it’s not directly about middle class housing — rather, it’s about a specific range of building sizes and typologies, including: duplexes, triplexes, courtyard buildings, multi-story apartment complexes, the list goes on. Buildings like these have an outsized effect on cities, and cities without enough of these kinds of buildings often suffer from their absence....

...in 1912, Toronto banned apartment buildings in most of the city. This ban was an early version of exclusionary zoning — the kind of residential zoning where large swathes of urban centers are reserved for single family homes, and only single family homes. Cities across North America were passing these kinds of zoning laws, and they were driven by a misguided perception that apartment buildings were dens of iniquity.

Developers at the time were trying to associate their buildings with European class and luxury, but were being met with accusations of facilitating immorality, fueled in part by racism...."

Bpath, I have never heard of a rental without appliances. I can confirm I had to replace an integrated refrigerator when one of my tenants stole the one the house came with.

I recently read this article about the fact that some LA apartments don’t come with refrigerators: https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/la-apartments-no-refrigerators-37016262

According to California law, a refrigerator is actually considered an amenity. While a built-in fridge might be something you’re used to, it’s legally not as essential as, say, a toilet or shower. Since ditching the fridge doesn’t make an apartment uninhabitable, some landlords might believe that less is more.
And, before you ask, the quirky kitchens aren’t just exclusive to Los Angeles. Some San Francisco landlords have included “no cook” clauses into their leases, which mandates that tenants use a hot plate, mini-fridge, microwave, and… that’s about it. When you put it that way, having to find your own fridge doesn’t sound that bad.

Some San Francisco landlords have included “no cook” clauses into their leases, which mandates that tenants use a hot plate, mini-fridge, microwave, and… that’s about it.

Wow, just wow. Shameless people.

Like college dorms.

I imagine that may be about fire codes and insurance...?

Might some of those landlords also have invested n take-out food shops, could one wonder?

I've thought that my place to sleep and keep out of the rain/snow ...

... was also the place where I was going to eat.

There's a rumour going that if someone doesn't eat ...

...s/he's not going to be living very long.

I guess those landlords would be seeking replacement tenants fairly frequently

Hopefully they wouldn't fairly frequently have a tenant who, having died of hunger and not having been found for a week, especially in summer, would have left some long-term smellable memento of his presence behind.

ole joyful

.

In Southern California I do not believe rentals generally include refrigerators. Back in my 20’s when I was renting you either brought your own refigerator or rented one. My son and daughter both rent currently, neither rental includes a refrigerator. Both rentals include stove tops and ovens.

Rentals are crazy expensive (average 2 bedroom in my city is a little above $3000 per month) but getting into a starter house here in So Cal is almost impossible. I really feel for our kids; daughter and her DH would really like to buy a place but do not want to put themselves in a bad financial situation. They have great jobs, SIL is an attorney on the road to partner but it will be awhile and my daughter is a middle school science teacher, she finished her Master’s last year.