There are many products on the market that claim 'neem' as an ingredient. Often, the 'neem' is combined with other insecticides and a vehicle that makes emulsification and thus delivery/application easier. If these products have used neem oil that was altered or obtained by a process other than cold-pressing, the value or effectiveness of the essential ingredient azadirachtin has likely been reduced or negated entirely. I have read reports in these & other forums about growers using products like Bio-Neem by Bonide (and others) and having less than what they consider stellar results, while I continue to use the cold-pressed product, such as is produced by Dyna-Gro, with what I consider very safe and very good results. Remember that neem oil doesn't deliver a huge initial knockdown punch, but it IS a powerful antifeedant and chemosterilizer, rendering current generations unable to feed or progress through metamorphic stages to adulthood, and rendering adults sterile. Cold-pressed neem oil is excellent on mites & works initially in the same way as hort oils work, with the added benefits of the other properties already noted. This from a recent post @ another forum site: "As I consider the prophylactic use of any insecticide, including systemics, I guess I have to say that about the only compound that fits that description for me is neem oil. I over-winter around 100 tropical plants (most are normally grown as houseplants, but my focus is on bonsai) under lights in my basement. About 2 weeks before bring them in, I apply neem oil - then again a day or two before I bring them in. Normally these applications keep insect levels in check all winter, though I may see some scale or mite populations appearing toward winter's tail. If it gets too bad, I'll do a neem application & hold out until I get the plants outdoors where the increase in the plant's metabolism and thus natural defenses, along with the increase in beneficial predators, usually completely eliminates the trouble. The bio-compounds plants use to repel plants are a by-product of the plant's metabolism. Plants with high energy reserves and plants growing with good vitality are much better protected 'naturally' from insect predation, which is why plants in low light and those that are just limping along are far more likely to be troubled by insects. I very often diagnose the occurrence of insect infestations as the end product of poor cultural conditions, and the greatest, most frequent offender is a poor soil." I'm not implying you're using a poor soil; I know you're not, but others might wish to consider the corollary. Al

"Some research indicates that sprays using Neem oil extracts, containing azadirachtin-A, are effective against this pest, particularly when applied to the soil, without being detrimental to beneficial insects. Other natural solutions, including the use of predatory nematodes, are currently being investigated." The above is from Canada: http://www.torontobotanicalgarden.ca/mastergardener/newforum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39&p=93 ---------------------------------- Canadians have also stated in forums that Neem works: "Try calling any 'hydroponic' store in your area, such as "Yield of Dreams" or "Homegrown Hydroponics" - they'll have it on the shelf - sometimes called "Einstein's Neem Oil". It works on the Rose Midge infestation I had as well." FROM: Http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cangard/msg062253481951.html ------------------------------ "I caught sight of it really early around mid-May on one particular climber (2 year old William Baffin). The advice I was given was to clip it back (boo hoo had to loose all those newly formed buds), dispose of those buds in the trash and foliar the plant and surrounding earth with diluted neem oil, dish soap and water. It did the trick - and although none of my other roses were affected I gave them the neem foliar spray just to play it safe." FROM: Http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cangard/msg0607231619365.html ----------------------------------------------- There are other statements on the web that Neem works. "rochester, neem oil applications have been proven to be helpful against rose midges. Read and follow the directions carefully; you'll be able to find neem products in any garden center." FROM: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg05182252650.html --------------------------------------- "Azadirachtin neem extract, sold as Azatin or Bio-neem, applied to the soil around the roses, stops the midges from being able to feed. They have a very short live span, so this will not kill immediately, but will stop future generations (a generation lasts less than 2 weeks). Also, immediately remove any damaged or suspicious growth you see on your roses and throw the prunings and any fallen leaves away. If you put a plastic cover over the soil under your roses, when the midge larvae drop to the ground they are exposed and unable to pupate. It's not terribly attractive, but a plastic sheet is better than deformed roses. Neem extract, and/or Bayer's Advanced Garden Rose & Flower Insect Killer, or Bayer's Advanced Power Force Multi-insect Killer, have worked best in recent trials since diazinon was removed from the market. They must be applied every 10 days according to directions, for the entire growing season to get rid of the midges. Also, remember to keep any fallen leaves, etc. from your roses removed asap." FROM: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Roses-732/2008/2/rose-midge-infestation.htm -------------------------------- " Prune off and destroy affected buds. Spray with a neem- or spinosad-based insecticide. Rose midge is a fly larva; although it looks like a tiny caterpillar, caterpillar-specific sprays, such as Bt, won't work. " FROM: http://agave.garden.org/~suzanned/matrix/rose-pest/rose-problem-matrix.html -----------------------------------

StillAnn, What happens if you only spray the early spring shoots of once blooming roses since they don't produce any more flowers until next spring? You may ask? Good question. All the basal growth and more laterals produced will get midged. When after the damaged growth tip becomes useless for continued growth, the rose bush will send a message to the highest up the stem bud below the midge damage to take over. The stem at this point is very thin new growth, being at the tip, and the bud that is called into action is also very small. It being nearest the tip, the rose's front line 'soldier,' so to say, proceeds as commanded by the bush to take over the critical job of producing growth to sustain the life of the bush. In no time at all, this new, weak growth produced is in turn attacked by a later generation midge! The process repeats itself again and again all summer long until first frost. Examine the new growth produced on a rose bush, especially new basal canes, that have been raved by midge all season long...it's not a pretty sight. Zig zagged weak, depleated looking canes and lateral stems everywhere. Each zig was where a midge attacked. The zag is the new growth made up the stem a few inches, and then there's another midge damaged zig....on and on up the stem to its tip...weak, misshapen growth all over the bush. That's what midge does to one time blooming roses.

vaporvac it is my understanding that rose midge is not new. If correct, I assume that roses have had plenty of time to develop defenses against them. Regarding your comment that midge is a sucking feeder. Here is how the immune system acts towards aphids - another sucking insect. "Author: MILES P W Author Address: WAITE AGRIC. RES. INST., UNIV. ADELAIDE, ADELAIDE, S. AUST. Title: DYNAMIC ASPECTS OF THE CHEMICAL RELATION BETWEEN THE ROSE APHID MACROSIPHUM-ROSAE AND ROSE BUDS Published in: Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, volumn 37, pages 129-136, (1985). Abstract: "Dynamic aspects of the chemical relation between the rose aphid [Macrosiphum rosae] and rose buds.In warm weather, M. rosae (L.) walks off buds of hybrid tea roses during a critical period coinciding with the opening of the sepals. This behavior could not be related to histologically detectable barriers to feeding, nor to changes in the water content of the tissues or in their composition with respect to total soluble carbohydrate, amino nitrogen or phenolic compounds; major changes in tissue chemistry, effected by spraying the bushes with urea, did not affect the time at which the aphids left the buds. Tissue sap expressed from stems and sepals showed a significant increase in catechin content after, rather than during, the critical period. Once expressed, however, sap from buds at the critical stage showed a sharp in vitro rise in catechin content over a few hours, up to levels approximating those against which the insects discriminated in choice tests. The insects could well be sensitive to a developing capacity of tissue to accumulated catechin, possibly in response to their feeding activity." Here is a link that might be useful: link for Miles' abstract above Here is a general plant immune system article: http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/PlantImmune.html