Oops - Paul, I apologize for misspelling your name!

In case anyone is wondering, the newly planted bush had to be cut down to about half of its size so it could be dug up w/o mangling the roses next to it.

Jackie

I'll be really interested in the beautiful rose's name too, Jackie. Not seeing red new foliage in your photos. Quite the prickles.

I always like to try to guess these, even though I'm usually wrong. So I'll say how about Gloire de Dijon or Adam?

Here are my GdDJ and Adam tonight.

GdDJ

GdDJ

Adam

Thank you both! I looked at all of the pics of DdDJ and Adam on HMF - my first gut reaction is that it appears more like GdDJ than Adam. Tomorrow I will get on a ladder and see if I can find any new growth, or buds or hips on the old one. I may have to wait until the one we just planted blooms - I am not good at waiting. Good guess, RBEHS Z10!

Jackie

Jackie, there are many Teas in the 'Gloire de Dijon' family that its hard to tell them apart sometimes, especially given how different they can look in different situations. That said, I'm fairly confident that yours isn't 'Gloire de Dijon' itself (shape isn't quite right, too few petals) but is certainly from the "Dijon family" of roses.

'Gloire de Dijon', from Pickering Nurseries.

Thank you Paul! More fun to see if I can find out what it is. Interestingly, I just was playing with the old blooms I cut yesterday and put in a bowl to photograph and two of them have what I thought was a "button eye", but when I investigated, they looked like teenie, tiny, pink blooms with tiny green leaves around them! I will post a pic this afternoon when I have more time -

Jackie

There is a rose on HMF (listed as "Mr. Williams Gloire de Dijon", and also called 'Elie Beauvilan'). It looks way more like my rose than the actual Gloire de Dijon does. Said to be bred from GdDJ and Ophirie. Hmmm..? My only problem if it is this rose is that there is a photo of an immense bush of it I am going to have to re-think where I planted it!

Jackie

I really enjoy these rose ID posts, the search for candidates leads me to look up roses that I might not have known about otherwise.

Comtesse de Noghera?

https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.229570

Jackie, I have "Elie de Beavilain",which I got from Becky and John Hook, so I assume it's correct. EB has never, ever produced yellowish or even buff blooms-certainly NEVER true yellow like those of the flowers in the bowl. They are always light pink-a pink which does lean towards pale peach,but is definitely pink.

bart bart - Thank you so much! I think what confused me is the first photo on HMF of 'Elie de Beavilain', which Margaret Furness in Australia posted, and which has 100% buff blooms:

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.384416

Obviously, there may be different roses in commerce under this name after all of this time. I looked in the Tea Roses book, and there is a good discussion of the "Dijon Teas", and how which rose is or is not part of that group is still being debated. Paul also mentions that situation above. So, I will probably have to be happy with deciding that my rose is probably a Dijon Tea of some sort, and just love it.

Jackie

I think 'Elie de Beauvillian' is as good a guess as any. Problem is, you could plant copies of your rose in a dozen different locations, and its possible that no two would look the same!

I have Elie here too and it is lovely and pink and peachy colored. Like Bart says it is not yellow or buff.

One of the things I like the best about real old roses is that their colors, etc. can be so variable, so I will not complain about that making IDs more difficult. I have enough info about my mystery rose now to know that it is gorgeous, and is most probably some sort of Dijon tea introduced sometime in the 19th century.

That and the old one's ridiculous (now) location makes me think it might actually have been planted by the oldest generation of my DH's family to garden in our garden - his great grandfather and great grandmother. I have old photos dated about 6 months after they moved in here in 1905, and you can clearly see plantings all over, and some of them are obviously roses. Unfortunately, I do not have any photos of the garden in the exact spot where my oldest "Dijon tea" is growing, but it is on the side property line about 8 feet from the front wall of the front garden, which would NOT have been a ridiculous place to put a rose then. From what I can see in the old pics, they planted roses in rows across the front and the sides of the garden.

In our adventures identifying several roses which are still in our garden which were here when we moved in (1989), many of them were tea roses which were very popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and were commercially available easily from 1900 to at least the 1920s - 30s, even though they became rare, and in one case "lost" in North America, later. For three generations for sure, the family has always gone to the West End Nursery in San Rafael (which is about 5 min away from our house) to get plants, and my FIL even worked there part time after he retired. They always have the "latest and greatest" most popular roses (and incidentally I read that that is the oldest continuous nursery in Calif, and is still owned and operated by the same family). Even several barely clinging to life HTs were growing here when we moved in, and they were also very popular in the 1940s-50s. So, I am going to decide to believe my new mystery rose came from that nursery, and has been in our garden for a LONG time. Also I am really enjoying waiting to see what my second plant of it will do in its new location.

Jackie

Madame Berard, perhaps?

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.330571

Thank you, comtessedelacouche - I will add Madame Berard to my list of possibilities. - there certainly are many "Dijon teas" that are similar! I looked at all of the photos of MB on HMF, and the color changes look similar, but somehow I think MB has more petals than my mystery. I am going to wait until my newly planted mystery Dijon tea grows and makes some of its own buds and blooms, because the very old one growing in the jungle may not be producing typical blooms.

Meanwhile, we have another problem - in 33 years here, we have never seen hide nor hair of a gopher. However, in the past 4 days what we think are gopher tunnels have appeared all over my new garden right where the newer plant of my mystery Dijon tea, and several other roses, are planted. So far none of the roses nor any other plants in that garden appear to have been damaged. My DH is making war on the gophers (I am still holding out hope they might be moles, but that chance is very slim, from what we can figure out). I have ordered metal gopher Digger baskets from Amazon to be prepared, sigh. Never a dull moment...

Jackie

Here is another shot of GdDJ here.

My Adam is too buff and Elie too pink to match yours. Adam is 8 ft and rangy while GdDJ is a smaller mound.

I think 'Mme. Berard' is a good possibility. I grew it once, years ago, and it often presents as pink/buff (but VERY changeable) and far less double than 'Gloire de Dijon'.

Sheila - that is a lovely rose, and I agree with Paul that, as far as I can tell so far, it has way more petals than my mystery.

Paul - I am keeping Madame Berard in mind - the pics of it on HMF are all over the place, of course. When my newly planted mystery is growing & blooming (assuming the gophers don't get it!), I will have more data. Appreciate your comments a LOT!

Jackie

Sheila did you get your Adam from ARE?

Yes I did, Humble.

Your mystery rose strikes me as a bit like E. Veyrat Hermanos (https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1692.0&tab=36). The HMF description page suggests it may actually be confused with Mme. Berard in Australia at least.

Thanks Sheila!

Thanks, Steve_M - I looked at pics of EVH on HMF, and my mystery rose does not ever have the dark/bright/saturated colors that pics of EVH have. It blooms a very pale pink, which on the old plant changes into a lovely pale buff color. I just went out and looked both at my ancient plant growing inside of a hedge, and the relatively new plant from a rooted cutting of the first one. Even in the middle of the coldest winter we have had for years (temps actually got below freezing - unheard of here for 20+ years), both plants are beginning to set buds. When the new one is (hopefully) in full bloom a couple of months from now, I will post pics on here of the entire thing.

I have a secret fear that it is really 'Awakening', and that the pale buff blooms I love on the old old plant are only the result of it growing inside a tangle of Japanese quince, a flowering crab apple tree, pittosporum, and other roses - not a situation I can replicate in another part of the garden!

Nervously waiting - both plants are leafing out right now, and look healthy.

Jackie

Its not 'E. Veyrat Hermanos', no. 'E. Veyrat Hermanos' is very much a multi-colored, "fruit flavored" rose that has a much wider range of hues in its blooms. It always reminded me of fruit salad.

I have Awakening from ARE I think and I really think yours is In the GdDijon Tea family, Jackie. I love my Awakening but it is not yellow or peach.

Its not 'Awakening'.

'Awakening' looks exactly like 'New Dawn' but 2X as many petals.

Is E. Veyrat Hermanos a poor bloomer? I've had one for 3 yrs and it grew into a giant but no blooms.

@sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida) It was a very poor bloomer for me; it grew fifteen foot canes in every direction and gave me maybe twenty blooms a year. I got rid of it.