So it looks like this is replacing your current kitchen AND dining area, right?

I like the idea of having an open window area to your living room. It’s great for having a line of sight and for continuity.

I would suggest having another 6” between the table and the east wall for clearance.

And I personally wouldn’t do the bench, but it’s not my house. I have a lot of cooking/baking supplies, so I would rather use the space for more storage and counter space. But if you think about it and can really imagine a bench being used often, go for it. Also, I’d recommend buikding storage in if you do go for the bench!

That picture is gorgeous! But for me, it works because the bench is completely separate from the counter. In your layout, the bench sits right next to the counter. Someone sitting there has their head near the countertop. Hair is going to shed onto the worktop. Someone on the bench is going to make a careless movement and knock a dish of the countertop. Etc. Maybe that's just my messy family.

I don't have a good picture for you right now, but I'll search Houzz and update when I find one.

A picture related to my "breakfast bar" suggestion. Pretty similar to mamagoose's snack/beverage counter idea. Could be a breakfast station, snack station, wine bar, whatever fits your needs best. Love mamagoose's beverage fridge suggestion.

Naval Square, Philadelphia · More Info

@Jessica yep, this will replace the entire kitchen and dining area. I'm honestly surprised that not a whole lot of people are liking the bench idea. I just thought that since most people like to gather in kitchens then the bench would be good with the limited 7 seating in there. Maybe I don't have enough kitchen supplies which is why I don't think I need that much cabinetry. Storage under the bench is definitely a go. I'm not sure I can spare the extra 6" for the east walkway without taking it from the island / table or the walkway between fridge and island which is already too small. How critical is that in your eyes?

@mama goose_gw zn6OH I was reading over some of the guidelines that were talking about combined space between appliances like I have between kitchen and fridge. To accommodate I was thinking about making the southwest pantry the new wine rack from 24" down to 12" and moving the fridge south to create the needed space between the fridge and range. this would also reduce the direct overlap from the fridge on the island across the way and give some leniency for an open door fridge and passerby.

After making those changes and taking into consideration what @mcarroll16 was saying about hair and dishes, I was going to move the pantry to the end of the sink run thereby closing in the seating / bench area to create that nook effect. I like having the light from the window in the kitchen but am not a fan of lower cabinets without uppers, hence the bench. I'm weird, I know.

Thoughts, everyone? You all are a tremendous help, thanks for letting me bounce ideas!

Where exactly are the windows on the sink wall? I'm not clear how the bench will be positioned relative to the windows. Can you mark them on your original drawing?

As to the couch idea…most people will gravitate to the island seating…as it is higher seating…easier to connect with the cook/hostess…and being in the center of things..is always more inviting…and no matter what people think …more cabinetry is usually useful..

Depending on the height of the opening…a very shallow cabinet under that..for canned goods?… glassware?…spices?…could be very convenient

@btydrvn thanks for sharing. Speaking of higher seating.. I was actually planning on keeping the island at the 36" height and not raising it so it doesn't feel out of place since the space isn't huge. thoughts on that? Also, when you talk about the opening, are you talking about the south all behind the stools? You don't think that would interfere with traffic? I assume there will be a lot to the fridge and in that area in general (crowding).

@mama goose_gw zn6OH I'll get a new drawing with the other mentioned items uploaded soon and I'll include my proposed windows. I say proposed because although there are two windows there, I'm actually going to reduce the size of the one on the sink and reduce and move the one for the bench area. Thank you so much for the continued back and forth!

The luxury of the higher island is that you can work around it comfortably while standing…and seating is easier to slide in and out of..without having to get up and down…with the added pleasure of being able to see out the windows ( or even into the other room)… while seated…honestly your floor plan is a little hard to understand …so most of my suggestions are conceptual more than specific…

I am hoping you will have as many windows as possible…since natural light and outdoor views add so much to the ambiance of preparing and sharing food with family or friends as much as just having a snack on your own…

I am in general appreciative of some shallow but tall cabinetry in the kitchen some where as the deeper cabinets are really more suited for big things…and smaller things just get buried in deeper cabinets….the “opening” i refer to is the “interior window”…?

@btydrvn thanks for the comments. If you have questions about the layout, let me know. I thought the context was super descriptive but happy to answer any details I may have overlooked.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH latest design attached for your review :) 😀

Okay, I've thrown out the bench idea, cant remember why anymore but now I have 3 very close designs. Full uppers, pantry, and windows. Thoughts on which and why?

Going back a little…i would not reduce windows..as they are vital in a kitchen for natural light ..and views…i am a little confused about what stage you are at presently in the space…what is there and what is proposed?…it looks like the fridge is sticking out into the room 1’ beyond the counters ?..a general rule for a functional kitchen is a triangle arrangement of sink fridge and stove…lastly in any grid drawing it is much easier to read if the grid squares are 1’…not 6”…i am literally cross-eyed from counting all those teeny squares

One last thought …it seems a much smaller work island may leave enough room for a much more convenient and separate dining set?

hey @btydrvn thanks for that. As I came to upload the latest design, it seems we were thinking the same thing. I've decided to skip the headache of moving or removing the existing windows. The latest design with the small uppers takes into consideration the window arrangement as is. I'm now thinking of moving the pantry into the north-east corner, leaving the windows, and adding smaller uppers for extra storage. Also the latest design has all cabinetry going up to the ceiling.

To answer some of your more pointed questions, the actual pictures of the yellow cabinetry with the peninsula is the present state of the kitchen. The proposed state would be the latest upload (3d mockup as described above). The fridge is protruding 1' beyond cabinets but I'm hoping for only 6", this was worst case scenario. Also, I'd rather keep the large island and have a 4 seater table. We have an 8 seater today and it's never used. Also, I think if we tried to separate dining out, we'd end up right back to where we are today.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH thoughts?

Trying to put all the pieces together to understand what you are describing. I think the last rendering is what you are considering if you don't change any windows? (You might have a typo, "not" instead of "now"?) I like that last rendering, except for the small uppers above the window. Those make the room heavy and a bit claustrophobic for me. You said above you don't have that much kitchen stuff to store. Would you be able to leave the walls open above the window and still store everything comfortably?

@mcarroll16 you are correct, latest design is with windows close together and pantry in corner. I did have a typo, fixed it, supposed to say now. Wrt the uppers, yes, I can get away with storing everything I need without them, I just thought it would look weird leaving it open. I also debated about tiling above the windows and maybe doing some free hanging shelving there? Do you think that would open it up and potentially still give additional storage space? I just don't want to underestimate the potential of long term habitation and growth.

If your pantry and your left-hand uppers both run right up to the window, I would just do painted wall above. Possibly with sconces or Roman shades "decorating" the space. One thing that might influence the decision here though. How are you handling the ceiling change? Are you removing the "drop down" on the left side of the kitchen?

Yep, I plan on getting rid of the drop-down ceiling that's currently in place.

I'm still confused about the windows--it seems the last plan you posted has them in the locations/sizes you were considering, but now they won't change? Can you post a plan with the windows marked, in their current locations?

If the fridge is standard depth (ap 36" deep including doors) you need to decide how many doors--unless the fridge is existing. Below are single door and French door configuration, and how they relate to the island/seating with only 36" for the aisle. I like the single door because the landing space to the right is more convenient. Since the island doesn't have much overlap with the fridge, it's not as convenient as a landing space for a French door fridge. Keep in mind that you need not only space for the door swing and landing space, but also 'step back' space if you need to bend and rummage in the back of a deep fridge. It's possible that someone will be sitting in the end seat, in the landing and step back space.

A counter-depth fridge would help but would offer less storage space.

The most debatable subject is the whole seating issue..if you never use your big table why have 7 seats at an island?….it is not the right setup for thanksgiving dinner?…since this is a pretty big kitchen how about a nice desk area where the bench is by the window?great place to look for recipes…use your laptop/computer?…another thought ….i always like to see the pantry next to the refrigerator as that lines up with the awkward projection of the fridge…another problem zone to me is the lost corner space under the base cabinets to the left of the windows…usually in corners like this there is a cabinet that has circular rotating round shelves in the corner…a layout more like you have drawn out for the uppers…lastly it does look like you are eliminating a window?..can i assume all windows are being replaced?…and of course back to my mantra “the more windows the better for the enjoyment of your kitchen”

I always forget about the wine rack location….that spot looks perfect for a broom closet…and i have seen great wine racks positioned beneath the island for easy access…bringing to mind the microwave is always easier to watch at eye level…that upper corner shelf would be a very handy location and convenient to sink as well…

@btydrvn - you bring up some good points that are currently in flux. I'm not 100% sold on the drawer microwave, my better half wants a hood vent, I could go hood vent or MW. If we go MW over the range, I could move the wine rack to the island and leave the corner storage for broom and mop (more economical). The latest design keeps the windows and the nature lighting today. As far as seating, we don't sit at the 8 person table, mostly we sit at the island. However, we need some sort of seating since we have people over for dinner hence the 7 seater all together.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH - I'm not sure what I'd do without you 😊 I was ordinally going to modify the window layout but to make my life easier, avoid exterior work and keep from potentially darkening the kitchen, I'll keep them as is. I've posted a plan with windows marked in their current location as you've asked. Currently I have a side by side fridge, we may down the road elect for cabinet depth if we find spacing to be an issue. I don't expect it to be considering today we have 4" clearance between open fridge peninsula (different kitchen).

So many reasons not to put your microwave over your range:

1. They aren't good at venting. Not much power, don't cover the front burners. If you have a gas range, you really need better venting than a OTR microwave can give you.

2. They sit low, making it difficult to use tall pots on the back burner.

3. But they sit too high for shorter people to safely use the microwave. Grade-school age kids is when this is the biggest problem. You would love older children to be able to heat their own food, instead of hassling you.

4. Someone who wants to warm up leftovers or a cup of coffee has to interrupt the cook at the range.

5. Microwaves don't have a long shelf life. OTR microwaves aren't terribly expensive, but they are still at least $200 more than a countertop model. Money you lose every few years when the stupid thing fails.

Thank you for the plan of the existing window locations--it matches the pics! I think that looks good, and provides extra storage (always a bonus).

You can have a hood and a microwave ….over the stove ….if they are located so that venting is possible…another observation …for comfortable island seating,especially for groups..you need at least 28” wide per chair…people need elbow room and room to get in and out of their chairs comfortably…and an overhang of 12” to sit comfortably while dining… plus room in the center if you are hosting a meal that requires serving dishes in the middle…to be honest all that seating is superfluous for everyday living…all those chairs!..which will in any case get in the way if you want to use the top for projects

A smaller working island …and separate dining makes much more sense decor wise as well …a nice rug in the dining area and a table that takes extensions for larger events…is roomier and cozier at the same time

@mcarroll16 convincing about the microwave! My hesitation with the drawer was the height and the fact that they're $$$. I think what I'll do is keep the vent over the range and shorten the cabinet height between the fridge and range and add a cabinet microwave there. This way I keep the counterspace next to the cook top. Free up some space in the island and can potentiall utilize the corner storage for cleaning supplies as suggested. Rough image attached.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH dare I ask your thoughts on lighting? I'm thinking recessed in general (6 to 8) and 1 above the sink, 1-3 pendants at the island and maybe a chandelier above the dining table. 😅😁

I'm sorry but I'm a one-trick pony ;). Layouts are my thing.

No problem at all @mama goose_gw zn6OH if you do bathroom layouts, feel free to check out what I got going on with my master bath too!!

If anyone has any thoughts on lighting placement or design, I'd love to hear them.

Someone did a post recently and posted a great article. I'll look through my history and post it here if I find it. Short version though is recessed cans placed above the countertop edge. I think roughly every 2 feet, except where another fixture (sink pendant, hood integrated lights) interrupt. "Countertop" includes working-side edge of your island. Then under-cabinet lighting, pendants over the center of the island, and a downlight over your kitchen table.

Found it. https://www.proremodeler.com/comment/736#comment-736

Thanks @mcarrol16!!

Okay so slight update. I read an article which resulted in my needing to adjust for symmetry around the range and increase the hood vent size. This resulted in 9" upper cabs surrounding the range and vent area with an increase in vent size as well. Unfortunately, this came at a sacrifice of the 12" broom closet in the corner which is now reduced to essentially a 3" spacer so the fridge door has some clearance. @mcarroll16 and @mama goose_gw zn6OH - thoughts here? Am I making a mistake?

I think doing the wider hood is very smart, but 9" cabinets would be terrible. You're going to have 7 1/2" interior space. Very few items will even fit. My thought would be to make the adjacent cabinets wider. That's tough with the microwave cabinet though. Maybe open shelves? It's easier here for me to name the problem than to find a solution. Hopefully mamagoose or other poster will have some great ideas for you.

Could your 3" spacer still be a broom closet? A narrow pullout could hold a broom and dustpan on shallow hooks.

Thanks for that @mcarroll16 I think I could potentially be able to use the 3" for a broom closet but unsure at the moment. Also I need to verify that the cabinet sizes are the exterior dimensions as well. As far as the 9" I was thinking of using one for a spice pullout and another for oils, spray, etc. I'm not opposed to open shelving though.

I want to put additional emphasis on the comment from Mama Goose about a counter depth fridge. We recently remodeled and made the decision to use two counter depth refrigerators because one just wasn’t big enough for our needs, and I didn’t like the way the standard fridge protruded from the cabinets so much. It truly changed my life to have all the space to properly organize and find what I need. I urge you to seriously explore this option.

hey @ffpalms I heard mama loud and clear and appreciate your comment. Currently the fridge is existing, and its a side by side, not pictured here. When we upgrade, we'll look to do counter depth and based on how old our fridge is today, it would roughly be about the same interior space. Additionally, we'll keep our existing in the garage for overflow!

Friends of ours put one 12" upper pullout next to their hood. The hood blocks access on that side. The other side faces a corner, so it's difficult to access there. For your current drawing, a pullout on the right side of your hood (facing the range), would be reasonably accessible from the right. A pullout on the left might be blocked in pretty completly by the hood and the microwave.

@mcarroll16 that's a great point, I hadn't thought about that. I was thinking since the hood was higher than the 9" cabs that I'd be able to access but you're right, if I've a pullout there, that would present a problem with side accessibility. So I suppose we're down to standard 9" or shelving on the sides. Thanks for pointing that out! - - Also, I'm not sure why, possibly because its the only different area so I didn't account for cabinet width but I'm rather certain I'm going to lose another 1" from the 3" corner piece because of the thickness of the wood surrounding the fridge. 38" is the opening size, likely going to be at least 39" in total with .5" wood on either side.

okay, I think I promise this is the last update. The whole symmetry thing really got to me and I didn't want to let go of the broom closet for easy cleaning and random storage and the microwave was causing a headache. Here's the new updated design. Notable changes below.

• Microwave placed back in kitchen island, will be going with standard style instead of drawer. I'm just not convicted its worth it for the price and if it is, I can replace down the line.
• Cabinetry has been made as symmetrical as possible utilizing 15.5" cabinets (hopefully these don't look too skinny with 42" uppers)
• Broom closet is back in but reduced to 8"
• hood vent still sitting at 36"
• Additional 1" for .5" either side fridge accounted for
• Concerns:
• Are 12" cabinets too skinny with 42" uppers? If so, see below.
• Northwest corner cabinet is 12" to account for the 12" deco cabs on either side of the windows. Should I reduce the (2) 12" deco cabs to 9" shelving and add the 3" to the 12" northwest corner cabinet making it 15" ?
• what else did i miss?

@mcarroll16 @mama goose_gw zn6OH

Are those uppers a series of separate 15" cabinets? You would get the same look with better storage from 30" cabinets that have 2 doors per cabinet. Maybe that's what you are planning.

In the corner, I think you would get better storage if you did a 30" upper cabinet right of the range. Then put a wide upper cabinet, with split doors, on the window wall, and make this cabinet the blind corner. (Personally I would sacrifice symmetry and put a corner cabinet with hinged door in that corner. But I can sympathize with a need for symmetry.) If you switch the blind corner to the window-wall cabinet, I think it works fine to keep the 12" decor cabinet. Your blind-corner cabinet would be 24", a useful length. If you keep the blind corner on the range wall, then yes, I would switch to shelves to make the NW corner cabinet 16" wide. But that's about storage preferences. I'm not a designer, and I don't have a useful opinion on the appearance of 12" wide/42" tall cabinets.

Do you know what you will store in that 47" lower blind-corner cabinet? My kitchen is small enough that I use our garage for food and appliance storage, and I still don't use my lower blind corner at all. It's so inconvenient. Consider abandoning that blind corner and installing useful drawers on both sides of the corner.

@mcarroll16 let me just start by saying thank you for always jumping in and responding. I really appreciate your thoughts and opinions!!

Okay so for the upper cabs to the left of the range, they are indeed one cabinet with (2) 15.5" in doors. The one to the right was a single 15.5" then the second 15" was part of a 28.5" blind cabinet.

So lets explore blind on north wall, removing all uppers to the right of the range on the west wall leaves 44", taking 12" from that to add to the north wall leaves 32". To keep symmetrical I would increase all for west wall cabinets to 15.75" creating 1 large cabinet to the left of the right of the range at 31.5" each. North wall then gives me 36" to play with. We have to take 12" for the deco cab to match the other end of the window giving me 24" remaining to use for a blind. This doesn't change the exterior look however, no? I would think that with the stile of the blind, that would leave me with something that looks like 9" cab (24 - 12 (blind) - 3 (stile). Or am I misunderstanding which is very likely at this late hour.

As far as the 47" blind, no idea what I'll put in it. When I had a lazy susan in that area before, I used it for smaller appliances such as blender, quesadilla maker, small grill, etc. This time I was thinking about using the lemans shelving so that I didn't dread going in there. Do you like those? Also, where the north and west walls take a turn, I do have drawers there today, so at least I did one thing right. See pic below. Anxiously awaiting your thoughts! 😅😀

Corner Space Organization By Hafele · More Info

You know, I wasn't factoring in your cabinet style and construction at all. That's the problem with advice from a complete amateur! It sounds like moving the blind to the north wall messes up the symmetry you've worked so hard for. So, bad idea on my part. My only experience with a LeMans sort of unit was in a very tiny kitchen, where I had to use it to store dry goods. Things were always falling off the sides into the back of the cabinet. If you're filling it up with pots and appliances, it will probably work well.

I didn't comment last night, but I think you're smart to put a standard microwave in your island spot. Microwaves just don't last long enough for the expense of drawer units. You're going to have a great kitchen!

We had a corner pull out like that in one of our winter rentals….and loved it…it didn’t hold as much…but better access made up for that..