Maybe since 2010 but not in the last couple of years.

phoggie, sounds lovely. We thought about moving more out to suburbia or on an acreage about 10 minutes away recently, but we got our new mayor last week (July is when he takes office), so we are staying since things will be going back to normal.

"Maybe since 2010 but not in the last couple of years."

How 'bout 2022?? That recent enough for you? Washington is rated as the 8th fastest growling state in the country.

Oh Elmer, I knew you would have a negative response to anything that I would post. Don’t think so highly about yourself that you put down rural areas and farmers! Remember without farmers and ranchers, you would not eat. There is nothing more rewarding than to watch the growth and harvest what our Lord provides....oh that’s right...you don’t believe in Him either!

Lonejack, I feel very sorry for you and anyone else who makes important life decisions such as where to live based on superficial, propaganda driven misunderstandings of the effect of politics on any one place. Differences in factors offered by different areas for one's life and living environments are far, far more nuanced than that.

Migration patterns away from rural areas and small towns, and from the Midwest, have been pretty consistent for over half a century. Areas of major growth and economic opportunities are elsewhere, and these factors have been major drivers for migration for a long time. "Iowa Day" in Long Beach, California, went on for years and is reported to have drawn over 100,000 in the 1920s.

"Don’t think so highly about yourself that you put down rural areas and farmers! Remember without farmers and ranchers, you would not eat."

It was the belligerence of the "ignorant Californian" comment that drew my attention. My state is the leading agricultural state in the US - no other state comes anywhere close. Ag activity is ubiquitous and visible when driving out of most inhabited areas. The land is richer and the weather more suitable such that crops of much higher value than grain can be grown. For many important ag products, California is often the only source in the US and when not, is often a supplier of 80% or more of particular products. The presence or absence of religious beliefs of those so engaged is a personal matter and plays no role in their economic activity.

While there are innumerable migration and population magnets around the US that are so because they offer ever growing and diverse opportunities, agricultural and rural areas are generally not among them. People prefer different things and those preferences are a matter of personal choice. A "my dog is smarter than your dog" discussion is pointless.

“Ignorant Califorian” is what he was.....if the shoe fits...

Elmer - No reason at all to feel sorry for me. I've lived and worked in large cities and didn't care for it at all. I love the peaceful freedom, low crime, low taxes, low cost of living, and everything else about where I currently live and work. You are free to love the opposite and I don't feel a bit sorry for you.

You may have misunderstood what I said, lonejack. You suggested that politics played a role in where you want to live. I think that's a ridiculous and short-sighted criteria, too many other things should be and are much more important to most people.

They do play a major role in where I and many people like me choose to live for the very reasons I listed.

haha, stickler for spelling me had an error, wrote cite/sight. Corrected.

Lonejack, you're welcome to pick your priorities, they need to make sense only to you. I'm not surprised that you believe your views are shared and they may well be. Too bad, no matter what the consequence. For me, also in my eyes as your views are in yours, politics have almost no impact on anyone's day to day life. Hiding from others with differing opinions isn't very productive.

LoneJack...you are absolutely right! Politics play a huge part to many where many people live. We have several families in just our little town buying property sight unseen on the internet just to get away from “California and Oregon politics“...their words! One man who I have met, has purchased 5 homes and all of his family is moving here..

I love being a woman and I love standing up for myself...unless I am dealing with a person, who, has more credentials than I. I give them a nod to their education. Okay, that said, I started feeling very "odd" I had significant physical symptoms which were not normal. I went from doctor to doctor, the whole lot of them, and by coincidence, all male. My primary care doc had done all he could, but he supported me. My last chance was a neurologist. I walked into his office, he asked me to stand on one foot while touching my nose with with my index finger. I guess I passed because he called me out and asked why the hell was I there, wasting his time?

He sent a follow up letter to my primary saying to put me on an anti depressant. After all, I was a woman and over 60. Is that not the perfect diagnosis?

My primary stuck with me, God love him, and gave me the one test I never had...endocrine/24hr urine. Low and behold, as my primary said, "good news/bad news". You are not crazy, but you have a life threatening tumor on the adrenal gland. Two in a million...one by chance (thank you primary) and one at autopsy. Pheochromocytoma. Yep, all in my head. And, BTW, I am white and have the best insurance. No matter what color, what income., had my husband had the same symptoms, I doubt a doctor would tell him he needed anti-depressants.

Life is far more nuanced than those who think matters and choices are black and white will ever realize or understand. They're the ones who lose out, not others.

Politics have almost no impact on anyone's day to day life.

I'll keep those words in mind when I go to fill up the tank with gas. How about our politicians cutting the gas tax until supply accommodates the demand?

United Van Lines, UHaul and North American for 2021 are showing the same trends as Annie's 2020 map. Atlas takes it a step further, showing 2021 to 2012 stats.

Washington D.C. got a few dozen more people this morning LOL

Those maps are very interesting and I have been hearing and seeing it happen in certain states. Of course it's political, it goes hand in hand.

Elmer's statement about "Iowa Day" in Long Beach, CA, reminded me of annual signs for a "Hot Dish Day" in Kihei, HI in February.

Much migration in the US today reflects Seniors retiring to year-round warmer climates -- and people moving to states with lower taxes (maybe not realizing how much that results in fewer public services and lower education levels).

That map is another demonstration of how internet searches provide word matches but not knowledge or insights. Why is this so hard to understand? Let's see what else may be involved

-2020 was the first pandemic year. People lost jobs, or were allowed to work from home, thus negating the need to live near an urban work site.

-The map shows outbound migration from states with higher cost major metro areas and gains for lower cost locations. What story does that tell?

-Peripheral fact, just one - housing prices in California's major population areas are up substantially over the last 3 years. One property I own is up 50%, another 25% over this period. --Properties listed for sale are often in contract within a week. If the outbound migration were a major economic trend, why does the real estate market reflect surging demand and prices and not falling ones?

These are simply top of the head thoughts, there are clearly many more to consider.

FWIW, taking away the gas tax makes only a small impact on costs - averaging around 30 cents per gallon. Plus that tax pays for upkeep on the roads we have to use, so how is that helpful?

There's an old saying that the price of fuel goes up like a rocket and down like a feather. Oil prices are set at a global market level, not by countries.

That said, I do feel the high gas prices are of a kind with the unscrupulous business folks the OT has been discussing.

I just paid $3.39/gallon for regular which is about $0.30 less than my last fill up.

LA Times article on recent California population decreases

Peripheral fact, just one - housing prices

The same is true of the NYC rental market. Prices were steeply discounted from late 2020 through 2021. Now they're going through the roof, with some landlords increasing the rents an astonishing amount, to above pre-pandemic levels. They wouldn't be doing this if there were no demand. People who left the city are now streaming back in. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/realestate/nyc-rent-cost.html

LoneJack, I'm glad you read mainstream media. Remember to consider that there is always a wide variation in stories and perspectives, don't put too much emphasis on any one data point.

But here's one to consider - in the LA Times circulation area, as described in a different thread, someone I know got 6 offers on Monday, the day after two days of open house showings for a house first listed the preceding Friday. Counteroffers were exchanged and the house was in escrow on Tuesday for a price 15 percent higher than the listing price. Which itself was a stretch, probably 25 percent higher than the seller thought it was worth. Housing price slump? No, not hardly. The opposite. In one area where I live, houses listed are typically in escrow in 2 weeks or less.

California's urban areas are expensive, as is the case in many other similar places around the US. So called "middle class" housing in convenient locations is unaffordable for first time buyers. In the Bay Area, especially. It's never easy to be at the lower end of a community's income range. As prices go up faster than wages, it's the people just getting by who are often the ones forced to leave to endure longer commutes.

I don't expect or need to change anyone's views.

Housing prices have increased considerably all over...and are hot commodities. If you know anything about the cost of building, you would understand...plywood nearly trippled as all wood products. Concrete has skyrocketed. I was told by local builder yesterday that quality paint is $120 a gallon and limited to buying one gallon at a time! Just in my little town alone, there is no need to even advertise. In just the last few months, I have had 3 different people who I did not know come and knock on my door asking if I would sell my house...one said, ”Just name your price!” Although it might have been tempting, then I would have been in their boat with no where to go and I love my little corner of this world! A friend of mine didn’t really want to sell for two years so put a very high price on it for our area, .sold in two days to people anxious to get out of California!

I have a great nephew who currently lives in LA area, call and ask me to send him my floor plans for my house and said, ”We need to get out of this rat infested place and going some place that people don’t poop in the streets away from liberal politicians”!

Good grief. 🙄 (Does EVERYthing cross-posted at the KT just go off the rails like this? Incredible.)

Not just the cross posted, it's every thread that a certain "person" steps into.

phoggie, plywood and building material costs have nothing whatsoever to do with housing prices in populated areas with hot markets, where prices keep escalating and listed properties sell quickly. The house sale I mentioned just above is either a knock-down or gut to the studs and start again and rebuild, take your pick.

I've never known anyone who has willingly left either of the two major population centers in Calif where I've lived. Not one. Not ever. And throughout my lifetime, I've met dozens and probably hundreds of people who have moved in. You're welcome to your opinions from 1500 miles away from a viewing point that I suspect is as different as different could be.

It sounds like your nephew should move elsewhere.

Elmer, why assume this is about YOU? Or, if the shoe fits...

Seems to me you won't find anyone who willingly left California among your daily contacts since you are still there. This does become a selection bias as your sample set is not a random selection of people.

I spent about 18 months in the LA area after I graduated from university. The only truly memorable event of my stay was meeting my husband and then we left LA together. After a few months in the Seattle area, we headed for the midwest and haven't regretted the decision to leave California. 

I wouldn't live in California again, even if I had a comparable house owned free and clear. In addition to being outrageously expensive, it is too crowded, too much traffic and too much smog and the earth moves in strange ways!

Lyndee Lee....welcome to the Midwest...hope you enjoy living here! Some people live with blinders on to what is really going on in their own state....they can rot there for all I care...just do not need them here in our God’s Country!

Ah, what would life be without arguments? I think for some it might be intolerable 😃

FWIW, it's a logical fallacy to think that what is true for a single person, or the few people one encounters personally, is also true for the larger population, as Lynda Lee pointed out above. Isn't that the Fallacy of Composition?

Well Elmer, what’a good for the goose, is good for the gander! I have read your unmerciful replies to others on this site throughout the last few years but when someones call you out, you can’t take it yourself. I am tired of ”holding my insults”! No, I am not intolerant to other's views...only from those who "think" they know everything...and don't! You have insulted several posters in the last few paragraphs...and multiple times to me.

I will put my knowledge about the rising costs of building supplies up against yours any day of the week. My husband was an active Architectural Engineer for 60 years and we owned and operated a Construction Company...what have you built yourself lately?

You can hold your ”sympathy” for someone who cares, because I don’t want or need it from you!

YOU are the exact reason I left the Table and I will/can do it again. Do us BOTH a favor and if you see my name, just scroll on down...I am not interested in anything you have to say! I can not understand how a "man, if you are one" would get his jollies coming to a forum of mostly ladies to insult and belittle others. You must be a lonely, desperate person to sit on here to make a reply to every post....get a life!

And there it is again. The same pattern repeats over and over.

One makes a statement, another disagrees.

I don't weigh into the argument on either side, merely post *data* from a reliable source that addresses the issue at hand.

Then Elmer dumps all over my post for doing an "internet search" and then tries to counter the facts, with which he disagrees, with *anecdotes* about his personal experience as if his personal experience either exactly mirrors what is happening or, worse, that his personal experience is the only one that counts.

I have to hand it to you Elmer...you are nothing if not consistent.

I'm a long-time Californian who moved away 6 years ago because my husband's health problems were such that it was best that we live near family. We no longer had close family in California, and our son moved here to go to college and stayed when he married a local.

We would move back to California in a heartbeat if we could. We mention it every day. Oh, we are happy here and doing well, but we really miss California.

California is a beautiful state with a rich history and large economy. I've enjoyed visiting there very much over the years. It's also extremely crowded in certain areas, and I don't think it's gonna empty out any time soon. Plenty of people want to be there.

I love California and there are definitely areas where I can imagine it would be a wonderful place to live. Unfortunately, I probably couldn't afford to live in those places, but they are fabulous to visit. I've had dear friends or relatives who have lived in Santa Cruz, Carmel, Atascadero, Santa Monica, Santa Barbara, Montecito, and Mammoth Lakes and I've visited all of those places frequently. I've spend time in Northern CA in the Redwood forest and I think all of these places are magical to visit - so different from here. I'm a born and raised PNW'r and would never give up what we have here in exchange, but I do love that it's a wonderful drive from here to CA, and a very short flight to most places in the state that I want to go.
We have (besides the Native American) a Scandinavian heritage here and I really love the influence of Mexico on the culture of many areas of CA, as it's very different from here.

Kevin, I think I 💕 love 💕 you.

I hesitate to continue this thread but my comment about the North American Van Lines map was because I believed it to be misleading in the extreme. Especially how done, as a standalone data point presented without the many, many relevant and obvious other factors underlying what it shows. If someone wants to show a map of migration trends (which should be both domestic and international arrivals), I can't imagine how anything less than 10 year figures could be useful. Longer, even better.

Kevin -- Thanks for the fascinating link. Not sure I buy his 'domino theory' with Russia even being capable of going from Ukraine to Scandinavia and NATO countries. The US bought that idea in Viet Nam, then when everything came to a stalemate, it all wound down and the world went on.

Well, now that's better... I'm happy to discuss why or why not the data posted may answer the questions you have raised....no personal attacks in that.

Trying to analyze regional migration flows is complex at best. The census bureau offers numerous spreadsheets full of data on that, but I'm not about to take the time to do an analysis of it. I did however find work done by Freddie Mac which discusses regional migration flows and urban vs suburban moves. You might be interested in what they have found as they address a number of the issues you have raised. (The data runs through 2019 so pre-pandemic.)

https://www.freddiemac.com/research/insight/20210128-population-growing

They conclude: The U.S. population has been moving South and West over time. Within the South, Texas and Florida witnessed the greatest increases in population. Most of the growth in metro areas in these states has been taking place in the suburbs as compared to the cities.

While looking at a single year does not capture a trend, looking at 10 or more years can obscure shifts in trends. So part of their analysis compares the last 3 years with the last 10 years to see if there is a shift in the most recent activity vs. the prior 10 years.

Their analysis shows that Austin & Raleigh have retained their top positions for population growth while Houston has dropped significantly and Vegas and Jacksonville are on the rise.

Sorry but this seems like another finding that's disconnected, the result of an internet word search that finds words but not necessarily relevance. This search result similarly doesn't appear to present information to enlighten what was being discussed.

The first image is what everyone knows, the continuing annual exodus from the Midwest (that's been going on for decades) and from the Northeast. Gains in the West and South. And so then what?

The line drawing simply shows changes in rankings of fast growing "metro statistical" areas. Again, how does this relate?

The analysis in the linked piece with "city vs suburb" graphs with dots seems flawed. I note the absence of major urban areas mentioned but I see such megalopolises as Merced and Madera California (said with obvious sarcasm), both with populations under 100K, appear. As do many other "cities". Most of the dots are in the upper right quadrant, gains in both "city" and "suburb". And so what then?

An apparent flaw in the Freddie Mac analysis is that I suspect its data for separating metro statistical areas into city versus suburb locations hinges on whether address are within or without the boundaries of an incorporated city. In very many cities, I can think of Los Angeles and Phoenix as immediate examples but even in New York City, vast stretches of residential neighborhoods exist within city limits. Urban because they're within city limits, not urban because they're visually and physically indistinguishable from areas even nearby or across the street that are considered as suburbs because they're in a different political districts the analysis would consider as suburban.

Details are mentioned just as a "for example", I don't see the connection to the discussion earlier on. Which, of course, doesn't matter.

Omg

Tiresome.

😆😆😆

P.S. Are you still reading this, JustDoIt?

Definitely reading every word. While the current discussion is slightly different than the initial posting, I find the different viewpoints very interesting.

Sooo glad I missed this 8mos ago! Skipping through well what a world we live in. Trust in each other, faith that we are here to cooperate not compete and not get one over on another are sadly very much the values I see played out each day. The stories of the man in Buffalo who went from door to door and no one would let him in are PATHETIC. How horrid have we become?!! When people lose sight of true authority of right and wrong where the line is drawn this is where we end up. Here's hoping there are other's ready to take some steps back, let go of the me me me me and realize how I FEEEELLLLL right now is not the determining factor!!!

Yes, I think males do take advantage of females sometimes. And sometimes they're just not educated enough to know what they're doing. Last, I think they give quotes like $1,000, just to try and run off some people. They don't want to go through the effort of helping.

As to the other stuff on this thread, all I see is projection. 🙄

I think women’s best protection against being cheated is to get several bids for work and refuse to be rushed if a repair is not an emergency so you can gather more info. After my cars have been out of warranty, I’ve had better luck with highly recommended specialty repair shops. I’ve had great luck with German auto specialists for both BMW and Audi repairs. when I consider the overhead in the fancy dealerships, I know someone has to pay for that. I look at Next door for business recommendations by my community. That’s not fail proof but I’ve had great luck finding a handyman, a plumber, a junk hauler and a tree top installer for my Starlink satellite dish. All great guys and I felt none were trying to take advantage of me.

There was a great King of the Hill episode in which Hank thinks that he is always getting the best deals on buying cars, insurance, etc. because he's got a "guy." His wife Peggy has negotiated a good deal on a new car, but Hank insists that he can get a better deal from his "car guy." This is the end of the episode.