Disappointed in Black Windows - Help

2 years ago

Went to the local Home and Garden show yesterday and was very disappointed when we checked out the black on black windows 😭. All the window manufacturers of vinyl black windows don’t paint the inside edges where they would wear and tear so when you open them you see strips of white. Our only option is to go to wood frame and have the maintenance of painting or fibre glass that was up to 30% more $$. Also looked at having grills inserted into glass and one manufacturers warranty gets cut in half as soon as you add grills and others kept same warranty but advised against grills due to higher fail rates.

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PRO

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

Interesting comments from consultants and designers.

1) Aluminum is not advisable unless it is in an appropriate climate (warm), or is necessitated by some other factor such as being in a high rise condo building or something of that nature. Yes it is "thermally broken", however the limits of that are generally tested and destroyed in a cold climate as aluminum is very conductive.

2) Vinyl windows (much like wood, fiberglass, and metal) come in a variety of designs, quality tiers, and perfromance levels. Stating that you don't like a material becasue of the design is like stating that you don't like hamburgers because you had a bad one at McDonalds, or perhaps more than one. This is admittedly a generalization on my part, but the extent of experience that many designers, consultants, architects, etc have with vinyl windows is of the "dollar menu", builder grade variety.

As for the original concern, @Marla, you may notice that windows of various materials don't paint "high friction" areas for obvious reasons. Many fiberglass and wood products will have vinyl jamb liners of another color, and/or similarly unpainted areas. This is generally considered the "guts" of the window, where hardware, fasteners, and other items that make the window operate (and with little regard to the appearance) are located. It just so happens these areas are typcally white on a vinyl window, on wood or fiberglass they may be beige or brown. If that would make a difference, you could check with the manufacturer of your choice to see if they'd apply the black coating to a different color vinyl extrusion such as beige or brown. Some may paint all surfaces in and out of the jambs, but there are more that do not than those that do.

Lastly, its very odd for the warranty to be affected by adding grids. The vast majority of manufacturers don't have anything like that in place, I'd look at other options regardless of the material that you ultimately choose.

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Comments (19)

PRO
Patricia Colwell Consulting
2 years ago
Go aluminum if you want all black inside and out.
millworkman
2 years ago
What brands were you looking at? Better brands will not have that issue from what I know.
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Marla
Original Author
2 years ago
We are in Canada. Looked at Pella, Durabuilt and All Weather.
blossomdearie
2 years ago
We just installed Fleetwood and we love them! All black and beautifully built. I’m in southern California and they do require a Fleetwood trained installer.
PRO
BeverlyFLADeziner
2 years ago
I would never select vinyl windows. The frames are too thick and the proportions of the windows are all wrong.
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Frames are too thick?

Here is a comparison of a pretty standard vinyl window that provides more visible glass and light than one of the most well regarded wood windows on the market. About 6% more visible light (i.e. more glass) by comparison. Similar glass packages compared.

It's just a bonus that every measurement of performance is better too.
- U-Factor = 17% better
- Visible Transmittance = 6% better
- Condensation Resistance = 11% better
https://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_detail.aspx?cpdnum=OKW-K-18-00073-00001

https://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_detail.aspx?cpdnum=MAR-N-425-16866-00001
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
2 years ago
Definitely don't want to compare price or warranty.
tc9876
last year
last modified: last year
@HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC, I would like to see the data/reports to support your statement #1?
PRO
toddinmn
last year
All you have to do is look at the U-values. There may are some “European” aluminum windows that have lower U-values but they have to go to greater lengths to isolate the interior from the exterior components .

There is a reason many vinyl windows went away from using aluminum or steel to reinforce there products. If your having a hard tome using google i can post up some data.
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
last year
@tc9876

What do you mean by "reports" to support statement #1? A quick survey of the U-Factor and CR numbers on any thermally improved aluminum window will tell you everything that you need to know about it's applicability in a cold climate. Thermally broken aluminum is a great product in the right application and an incredibly strong and thin profile. That said, anyone using it in a climate with a winter of any significance is not building science savvy and is setting themselves up for purchase misery/regret.

That regret will be you windows sweating buckets or the consistent bloody noses as you set your winter relative humidity to about 12%.
tc9876
last year
last modified: last year
@toddinmn @Windows on Washington Ltd I looked at aluminum thermal break windows for midwestern location. U value is .19, SHGC is .38, CR is 67. These numbers do not align with the blanket statement that was made in #1. I wanted to understand better the basis for the statement, that is all. @toddinm Your snarky comment about my ability to use google does not serve you and makes you appear small.
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
last year
Those are great number. What product is that specifically that you are referencing?

A CR of 67 is pretty good, although with a triple pane window you'd like to be in the low 70's or above. That will give you the best condensation prevention.

There are thermally improved aluminum windows out there that are world beaters on the performance end of the spectrum. That said, they are going to be very expensive and a tiny fraction of the marketplace. These two factors make them poor choices for most people when it comes to cold climates.
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
last year
@tc9876

Any follow up at to what product you were quoting the data from previously? Do you have a CPD Number for it?
tc9876
last year
@Windows on Washington Ltd You will likely have a negative comment as my builder ordered the windows from China. I don't know the CPD number.
elcieg
last year
last modified: last year
Authentic full divided light windows are available, but you will pay a hefty price for them. Investigate Parrett.

Simulated divided light windows are made from a single, large pane of glass with surface muntins "welded over the exterior". Standing back from the windows, it is hard to tell the difference.

I don't like the white on the crank out windows, either. But, that said, I would never, ever have crack outs again. One unexpected rain storm, when you are an hour away from home, and the windows are never the same.

BTW, we love our black Anderson 400 Series simulated muntins. You can choose your pattern. For this house the windows are 2/1 and the full view doors are 4/4.
millworkman
last year
"Investigate Parrett"

Becarefull looking at Parrett, they look great but..............................
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
last year
@tc9876

No negative comment. But without validated data, how are we supposed to make that actual comparison? The Scientific Method requires data before conclusion is all. Have to be careful when making assertions online as they are up for consumption by a bunch of folks.
PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
last year
@tc9876

I applaud your adventurous spirit as well. The lack of readily available warranty service or manufacturer contact (in North America), will be a non-starter for most folks. What was the final price on a given operator of size?

Disappointed in Black Windows - Help

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC

Comments (19)

Patricia Colwell Consulting

millworkman

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Disappointed in Black Windows - Help

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