From what I've read it seems to be a group (of which Leander was one of the earliest examples, so it got named for him) of Austin's roses which are known for their very large, showy blooms, heavy fragrance, and glossy foliage. All roses in this group have Boerner's Aloha in their parentage.

Aha! Thank you @joeywyomingzone4 !

So Aloha is the link... That's great to know, thanks! The roses of that group are all incredibly appealing, and for the few that I have, very very healthy too.

Beautiful picture of Aloha, @erasmus_gw thank you for sharing!

I can see the glossy foliage and the big flowers of the Leander group in her.

Perhaps having this climber as an ancestor explains why the roses in this group seem so amenable to being trained as climbers, and why some of them get so much bigger than their stated size.

One of the older Austin catalogues explained all of the groups, including Leander. I don't remember exactly what I read, but like you, I noticed that most of my favorites were Leanders. I think Poet's Wife also has some Leander heritage. I thought I read somewhere that New Dawn figured in the mix of Leander at some point?

Well the sizing on any rose can be way off the seller's stated size depending on what zone you're growing it in. It's not just an Austin thing or Leander Group thing.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)

Yes and it's a bit frustrating! Gardening in pots I tend to only buy roses with a stated size of 4ft max. But as I have learned, stated size is very unreliable! I would probably not have bought TG last year if I had known it would be taller than me six months later... I just planted Olivia Rose Austin and I hope she stays at her stated size.

But I agree, it's not just Leanders or even just Austins that do this. Unfortunately even HMF doesn't always take this into account in their description page for the roses (TG is still listed there as being under 4ft)... Luckily there is the HMF comments section and this forum for more accurate information !

@DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)

Oh that's really interesting! I wish DA would have that kind of information somewhere on their website!

Climate is by no means the only factor that determines the size of a plant,especially not the "zone". Living as I do in Italy, I have a very low opinion of that USDA zone stuff,since winter cold is by no means the only relevant factor to be considered by a gardener! High heat and summer drought greatly reduce the size that a plant can achieve,not to mention the soil in which a plant is growing. Heat and drought are real killers here...

I agree @bart bart , the USDA zones are only part of the picture! There are so many other factors that can determine whether a plant is suitable.

The heat, the drought, and also for me, the effects of wind, high air humidity and salinity from being on the coast.

I bought way too many roses this year, but only because I fully expect that about a quarter of them will not survive the summer, or will be in such bad shape that I decide to cull them.

For me there are two kinds of roses here: the smart ones, that go into "summer dormancy" during the very worst of the heat and rebloom in the fall, and the dumb ones that exhaust themselves by trying to continuously bloom through the blazing heat, only to have their blooms fry almost instantly, and the weakened plant fall to pests and disease.

So far the two that I have from the Leander group (TG and CPM) have been "smart roses". I hope Olivia Rose will be too.

Edit: maybe that sounded mean. I love my dumb roses just as much as the smart ones. I just wish they would sense that 44°c is a time to just focus on staying alive.

"I bought way too many roses this year, but only because I fully expect that about a quarter of them will not survive the summer, or will be in such bad shape that I decide to cull them."

That's what I told myself too, that yes I for sure bought too many but some of them will eventually be culled probably lol. For the opposite reason for me, though, as I don't want to keep any rose that can't put on really good size due to our winters. I want BIG roses and I will try as many types as I can until I find the ones that will grow monstrous here despite our long freezing periods. Why do I want giant roses when my garden space is so limited? Sigh, I don't know. The small ones just don't do it for me, though.

You don't have to only grow shorter roses in pots. I have huge climbers in pots. You just stick them against something they can climb/sprawl on. Of course, they shoot their roses through all the pot holes and root themselves into the ground so does that still count as a potted rose? Lol

I think seaside goes for shorter roses because they have a huge challenge battling wind.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)

I hope your roses will get as big as you want them to be! I agree the larger roses just have much more presence and with their size all that potential to offer a profusion of blooms!

I love looking at pictures of the giant arbor-eaters and the massive shrubs many people post here.

@sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)

Alas, I can't do that! I garden in pots on a windy rooftop, plants catch the wind and their pots get knocked over, so I try to stick to shorter ones.

I have one spot where I can do a climber, where I have placed TG. As for CPM, one year in, she is what someone described on another thread as a "beached octopus", barely any height and only growing horizontally. That's fine with me though! The leaves on both of them handle the wind, salt and sun extremely well, no sign of burning ever.

In my dream in-ground garden I would love to try some of the bigger ones from the Leander group, like Fighting Temeraire or Spirit of Freedom!

Seaside, here's a list for you--all my Austins, Leander Group or not, are huge with the exception of Tamora, which stays its correct, small size, and I love her, thorns and all. The following average 8-9 feet: Golden Celebration, Brother Cadfael, Jude the Obscure, Ascot 2 (not Austin), Wild Blue Yonder (not Austin); getting up there at 7-8 feet: Evelyn (one of mine in good sun), Olivia, Rouge Royale (not Austin), Augusta Luise (not Austin), Dainty Bess (not Austin), Young Lycidas, Royal Bonica (not Austin), Abbaye de Cluny (not Austin), Julia Child 2 (not Austin). That's enough. There are others like Boscobel who are almost 7 feet. Take your pick when the time comes. In your climate, someday you'll grow some big roses. Diane

@Diane Brakefield

Thank you for the list!

Oh my goodness... Olivia is 7-8 feet in your garden?? Why does DA state such inaccurate heights on their labels!?

Wow... I certainly hope she won't get that big for me. I hope that regular root-pruning and growing in pots will help stunt the size of my roses somewhat.

And Tamora... I love her colors, but I have never found a seller for her in Europe. I'll keep my eyes peeled in case I ever do.

Thank you so much for your post. It might not be what I wanted to hear but at least now I've been warned about the real sizes!

Olivia is about 7 feet, but it took her a few years. And I can prune her down easily. I had to prune Augusta Luise and Twilight Zone way down (easy) because we needed to remove a large holly growing behind them, so right now, those two are midgets. It will be interesting to see how fast they grow back. Some of my largest I've had to prune way down--one out of anger because he wasn't blooming the way I liked (Brother Cadfael), but they do all grow back, the speed of which depends on the rose. In pots, I'm sure they'll be smaller. My smaller Austins, not very small though, are The Prince, Munstead Wood, Tamora, and I forgot, my little Abe Darby. Eglantyne is about 6 feet. Those are all oldies except for Munstead, one of my very favorite roses. As I've said, it takes some time, here at least, for those roses to reach their current size. Diane

Diane I’ve been meaning to ask if Rouge Royale is getting moved from the slope into the holly’s spot or is something different going there?

Oursteelers, I plan to move RR to the vacant spot that will be left when my friend takes the own root Julia Child that I don't want. I hope this gets done before February is over. I'm not sure what to put in the holly's spot, if anything. Thanks for asking. Diane

I remember a guy in a super hot dry climate saying that if the rose will do well in hot dry, it will survive very cold as in good with extremes...may not help if you can't let it get big in hot dry.

Also, from what I keep hearing form experts, rose can take a lot of pruning (assuming their not the once bloomers kind that hates pruning) . I find that Bonsai advice works really well for large fruit trees and many small shrubs....you may end up fighting the growth habit some, but you get to experiment and try new things.

seasiderooftop I haven't grown Austins for long enough, but it seems like you said, some are the delicate kind and some are tough. I wonder if the tough kind can take more pruning? It really is interesting to see the variety that David Austin has as opposed to Harkness. I too am really interested in other people's ideas and answers.

@ann beck 8a ruralish WA

Yes, I completely agree about the bonsai inspiration! Pruning will be the way to go in the future, both the branches and the roots.

It seems that it's the only way to keep trees and shrubs healthy in pots for more than a couple years.

The Austins are definitely not all equally tough, and I am noticing that the roses (Austin or not) with dark, glossy, almost leathery foliage seem to handle the extreme heat and wind the best. After all, this is the kind of foliage that many other plants that do well in our climate have: olives, holm oaks, laurel, oleander, pittosporum... they all have dark green, somewhat leathery foliage. So I was interested in the Leander group for that characteristic, as a potential group I could reliably pick from.

Most of the roses I have added this year have that kind of foliage. I'll see if it's a reliable sign of heat tolerance.

Rugosa foliage also does very well against the salt and wind, but my rugosa hybrids are new and haven't been through a full summer, except for Wild Edric, so I will see how they take it.

I have never tried Harkness roses. Have you grown them? What would you say is your toughest Austin so far?

My Japanese pruners are used on Bonsai. Diane

Hi @seasiderooftop -- there are some roses that are just lovely being marketed as "my bouquet" because they are smaller -- and they are gorgeous. The three I'm growing are Julie Andrews and Moonlight in Paris, and Scentuous. I love love love them, but wish they were bigger! They look rather like the English roses. https://www.certifiedrose.com/my-bouquet/

The big reason I'm writing is that I'm wondering if you got the marketing email from DavidAustin Roses today? It was all about rooftop gardening in pots! If you didn't get that, figure out how to message me, and I'll forward my email to you. Some lovely photos. Might inspire you!

The only rose I have that has become really huge is my climber. Most of mine are nowhere near as big as Diane's, but it could be that I under water or under fertilize or they are in crazy hair-dryer winds (not every day, but probably about 30 days a year total?). I aspire for my roses to look like Diane's, but alack and alas...

Moonlight in Paris

Julie Andrews

Scentuous

p.s. I was looking at the roses featured on the link I posted for "my bouquet" roses -- and I just found "White Lies." That one sounds like one I want! Maybe next year...

Hi @DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)

Thank you so much for these rose recommendations! Short fragrance bombs is exactly what I'm looking for, especially if they are tough!

I see you are in a hot climate too so your recommendations are especially welcome. Regarding wind, my location is rather difficult, with force 7 winds at least one or two days a week, reaching gale-force about once a month or every other month at best. I see my neighbors try to build shelter, with mesh netting etc, but most of it just ends up being blown away in a couple months' time so I decided not to go that route and instead just find plants that can take it.

Julie Andrews ("Pink Paradise" in Europe -Delbard) and especially Scentuous ("Gartentraume" in Europe -Tantau) will definitely both be on my list for next year. Unfortunately Moonlight in Paris (aka "Garden and Home") was discontinued by Delbard and is unavailable in the EU.

My new plantings do include one Delbard and one Tantau, respectively "Mamy Blue" and "Heidi Klum". Both of them are supposed to stay short, and both have the kind of foliage that I believe is a good sign here. Fingers crossed they turn out to be as fragrant and resistant as they say.

I do get marketing emails from DA, but they are from their EU branch, so not the same as the US content. However, I had contacted DA last autumn and described my rooftop and climate conditions in detail, asking for their suggestions. They recommended three that fit not only the pots and heat tolerance requirement, but also the all-important wind resistance: Princess Anne, Scarborough Fair, and Tottering by Gently. But most adamantly they recommended Princess Anne.

Of the three, I ended up following their advice for Princess Anne. Tottering by Gently doesn't do anything for me, and while I love Scarborough Fair, it was impossible to find. My two other DA additions this year are Olivia and Desdemona, but I think Desdemona was a mistake. She's already struggling with dehydrated canes from the wind, in spite of being relatively sheltered, and is the only new rose on my roof that has not put out a single leaf yet.

Because of Brexit, DA was unable to ship to the EU for all of last year, so I couldn't order directly through them and had to find other retailers. They have now resolved the issue and can ship to the entire EU... Except for Malta!! I contacted them again to ask about this and they said it's a courier problem that they are working to solve. Ughhhh...

I really appreciate your recommendations for roses, thank you! And those three are beautiful in your garden, congratulations!

@DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA), I got the same email yesterday from DA and immediately thought of @seasiderooftop! Since you didn't see it, here is a link to the web version of it. It looks to be the same as the email: https://mailchi.mp/email/your-fragrance-filled-roof-terrace-66416?e=ebe8970cfe

Thank you so much for the link @susan9santabarbara !

The DA pictures are absolutely wonderful as always! Oh those rooftop roses are really dreamy! I can only hope my bare root babies will end up looking even half as good!

@seasiderooftop We're rooting for your success!!

seasiderooftop Currently I live in a mild English style climate,,,,my only issues are roses that need heat and dry to bloom well. I have lived in a hot desert, but did not try to grow roses there. I read if roses do well in very cold, they will do well in hot dry too. Someday, please try rooting Wild Eric....wanting to know how easy that is...if I learn first, I'll let you know. I do know it works well in hot dry California.

@ann beck 8a ruralish WA

That is really interesting about the high cold tolerance being a sign of possible heat resistance! I will be able to test that out with some of the ones I planted this year, especially the rugosa hybrids and Comte de Chambord, both of which supposedly to do very well in Scandinavia.

I did only a light pruning this season, our heavier pruning season is in September right after the worst of the heat. When I prune Wild Edric in September I will try rooting the cuttings, but I must admit that rooting cuttings is not my strong suit! I keep trying though! I am currently trying to root little bits of Comte as well as Autumn Damask that I clipped off when I planted the bare roots. I will try with Wild Edric in September and will definitely post if successful!

You are lucky to be in a mild climate! It seems to me that zone 8 is really the goldilocks zone for growing roses, where they get some real winter but not too extreme, and a long enough growing season, with warm but not deadly hot summers. I hope your roses will do fantastic this year!

O, dear, seasiderooftop! Here in Tuscany, we are supposedly a "zone8" but we do indeed get deadly hot summers...

In zone 7, here in the semiarid desert, our winters are fairly mild with the occasional bad one. Our summers are always hot and very dry. I think for the most part, the hot, dry air is harder on my roses (blooms, anyway) than our winters. Nevertheless, I've never lost a rose to either weather condition. Diane

In my area, it's heat and drought that kills stuff off.

@bart bart

Considering that you mentioned you don't have running water for the land where most of your roses are, I think it's a miracle that any of your roses survive the summer at all without any help, especially in increasingly dry climate.

I would love to see a list of your best performers in those conditions. Perhaps you have already posted them elsewhere? If you have some pictures too that would be amazing, just to get a sense of how the drought affects their growth.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) -- love your "we are ROOTING for you" -- very punny! tee hee!

@DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) That was unintentional 😅

Seasiderooftop, at least up until now, the climate here is not as bad as in, say, California. The only reason I can grow roses is because of the rains in the autumn and winter. Global warming terrifies me.

There are a lot of wild roses growing on my property,as well as other members of the rosaceae family,so perhaps the soil, bad as it is,has some qualities that this family of plants appreciates.

My garden is all about the big "spring flush" of bloom; anything else is an extra. Most of my roses are climbers and ramblers; these have huge root systems that can reach way down into the soil. Old roses,landscape-type roses, and once-bloomers are good, too. I've only recently started trying floribundas,but have no idea if these will prove sustainable in my situation.