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What are your favorite compact roses (that stay smallish in the heat)?

MinaLoy
3 months ago

What are your favourite compact roses that stay smallish or lowish - or are happy being pruned to stay that way? I'm looking for plants that perform well in hot climates as I'm in Tuscany, Italy (so Mediterranean climate, to be grown in the ground not pots (but I guess successful container roses would be a good fit).


So far on my longlist are:

Rose de Rescht

Munstead Wood

Arthur de Sansal - a localish rose nursery described this to me as a tiny "gem" - apparently it's prone to bs/mildew in spring but it's managable if sprayed and apparently it blooms non-stop all summer. I'm tempted...

Jacques Cartier or Sidonie - though I think S perhaps isn't that compact

Alfred de Dalmas - nurseries have this down as anything from once blooming to continuously flowering, what's the truth in the heat, in your experience?

Marie Pavie - from photos online it looks like this might get huge. Could it take afternoon sun in the summer? Are there any polyanthas that are 'self-cleaning'?

The Fairy

Little White Pet - it seems like this actually stays small and could trail quite nicely at the front of a border. Is it thorny?

Sharifah Asma was happy for me in a small pot, but she looks like she might just want to grow up and up once she's in the ground, and perhaps doesn't tolerate the sun/heat.


So, which of these - or any others - are compact gems, in your opinion? :)

Comments (47)

  • PRO
    Amaryllis Man
    3 months ago

    I found a website that mentiond a few compact roses, I will give it to you. Roses for small gardens.

    MinaLoy thanked Amaryllis Man
  • Paul Barden
    3 months ago

    'Blue Mist' is a terrific pale lavender polyantha type.

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  • SylviaWW 9a Hot dry SoCal
    3 months ago

    Aunt Margy’s Rose is a polyantha with dark violet and white flowers that’s never grown taller than 12 inches. Flowers are about 1” across. Fragrant. Blooms readily but needs regular water. I got mipy first one from ARE, and i jus today potted up a new band from Burling.

  • catspa_zone9sunset14
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    We have hot summers here.

    With a still-clear memory from, as it happens, this very afternoon tidying up 'Little White Pet', I can assure you that she is very thorny -- not large thorns, but a multitude of small, sharp chihuahua-size teeth that make the clippings stick to you like Velcro. She stays around 3.5 x 3.5'. I have her growing in a fair amount of shade from an olive tree.

    'Marie Pavie' is self-cleaning and the epitome of a tough, easy-going rose. Stays at roughly 4' tall x 5' wide here with moderate pruning and is in afternoon sun (light-colored flowers, so not badly affected by heat), repeats well.

    'Jacques Cartier' goes to 5-6' tall every year, but I cut him back to roughly 3' height during winter pruning. Totally heat-proof, good bloomer.

  • bellegallica9a
    3 months ago

    The China/Tea Ducher stays small and blooms a lot.


    (I second catspa on Little White Pet. Yes, it stays small, but those thorns...they're like needles on syringes.)

  • malcolm_manners
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    Bermuda's Belfield seldom exceeds 1 M for us, and Alister Clark's 'Borderer' goes perhaps half that. Both do well in central Florida (humid heat). Also, our 'Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings' stays quite short (under a meter), but would likely be unavailable in Italy.

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    I'm interested to hear that Marie Pavie is self-cleaning @catspa_zone9sunset14 I thought if you didn't deadhead it got covered in nasty spent brown blooms - that's the main thing that's holding me back.

    Happy to hear Jaques Cartier is good in the heat.


    I will have to rethink Little White Pet, it doesn't sound like the toddler-friendly front of border plant I was hoping for!


    Those polyanthas are pretty. I just stumbled across Clotilde Soupert, I hadn't realised there was a shrub as well as the climbing version. So pretty. Her flowers remind me of Souvenir de la Malmaison, which I have and love, but I wonder if it summers from the same balling issue.



  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    I love Clotilde Soupert and have five plants of her in the ground. It definitely can ball if the weather is cool and damp or rainy. I often lose the entire first flush but it repeats so well and in big flushes so I don't mind too much. Once it warms up its better. The plant is shrubby and dense so you could think of it as compact, but it is vigorous so the size is not small. It's healthy and lovely. Spent blooms can stay on the plant awhile.


    Here are three plants that have grown in part shade for many years:






    I grow Borderer in a pot. It stays short and blooms well.



    Walferdange is looking like a good short one. It blooms a lot and there's variety in the bloom colors.



    For me Tamora is a short Austin . It's a tough plant . Mine's in a hot , dry spot and handles it well.

    MinaLoy thanked erasmus_gw
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Oh those are all gorgeous, @erasmus_gw . Clotilde Soupert is bigger than I thought, definitely not 60-60cm as the site I was reading claims! But it looks like a nicely shaped plant with evenly spaced blooms - I bet it looks gorgeous at dusk, like it's dotted with little stars.

    Tamora is very pretty but I never see it on sale here.


    I have fallen down a small rose rabbit hole and also discovered Yvonne Rabier, Dr Ricaus, Petite Françoise and Mignonette for sale locally, I had no idea there were so many!

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    You have many beautiful roses @erasmus_gw ! I especially like that first Mignoette and I love the contrast in that last pairing.


    Do all the polyanthas have that candelabra type growth or are there more nodding ones?

  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    I can't think of any polys that I grow that haven't put up a candleabra type of stem at times. A rose with thin stems might nod more. Someone above recommended Ducher...and it has thinner stems, and probably is more soft and graceful as a plant. Might be some other smaller growing Chinas or teas.

    MinaLoy thanked erasmus_gw
  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    3 months ago

    Clotilde Soupert , Yvonne rabier, Christian J, Lindee stay smaller here. Molineux stays on the small side as well as a few others I have to look up. Mme N. Le vavasseur is another good on for size. How small do you want? Is height the issue or width or both? 🙄

    MinaLoy thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    I'm interested in both or either. I'm still playing around with a couple of designs for mixed borders, and I could squeeze in some smaller rose bushes. There is one specific spot where I need about 1m max. for visibility. But the plants don't have to be teeny tiny, just stay kind of smallish and not take over, because my experience so far has been that even local nurseries' size estimates are often on the really conservative side for the climate here - maybe just cut and pasted from northern European breeders' info.


    It's really nice to read the suggestions and discover some less common options instead of just Little White Pet/the Fairy/ Comte de Chambord (as lovely as they are) which are what pop up when you google small rose bushes. Also it seems like there are some really elegant choices and reliable bloomers in this size category which is great. Now I feel guilty for neglecting the small plants in favour of the big showy ones and huge climbers.


    Lindee is very sweet, and I love the white/yellow contrast on Yvonne Rabier.


  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    3 months ago

    The leaves on Yvonne Rabier are especially beautiful. I wish I still had pictures. Jacques Cartier is snother beauty. I wish their was a search function for posts v

    with pics on Houzz as I posted many pictures prior.

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Yes I think I will definitely plant Jacques Cartier. I was hesitating over JC, Sidonie, CdC and have read so much contradictory information on heat tolerance, reblooming and so on that I'm very confused. But I think JC might be the best bet for me and the flowers look gorgeous.

    I love threads with photos but even when you find them, lots of photos on old posts are no longer available for whatever reason.

  • Alana8aSC
    3 months ago

    Karine is soo cute Linda looks similar to Mountain Mignonette, but lighter color, right?

  • Alana8aSC
    3 months ago

    I love Polyantha's and most stay a smaller size. I love them so much I try to get every one of them I can. It's getting hard trying to grow everything I love. My husband and room dictates closer planting this year. Hopefully they all love and forgive me ;)

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    I'm sure they look beautiful all flowering together Alana, I love closely planted roses mingling.

  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    Alana, Karine also reminds me of Mountain Mignonette...it's very similar but a little lighter. Ruth Knopf named it after her daughter.

    One rose that is really a favoiite of mine that is compact but not small is Well Being. It is a nice , shrubby, sturdy plant , not too thorny, that gets to be about 4 or 5'. It has great rebloom, is fairly bs resistant, is very fragrant and beautiful.


    Well Being..it's usually pretty yellow with pink or rust edges but can be paler.







  • Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
    3 months ago

    Marie Pavie is my favorite rose for scent. She wafts sweet musk 20 ft on a hot dry day. she gets blazing sun, but plenty of water so I don’t know about her drought tolerance. About 3-4 feet tall and wide for me in the third year. I prune her 2x2 feet. Mostly self cleaning unless we get absolutely windless days. She is blooming now for me in SoCal so she will get pruned when she has finished with this January flush. Definitely a flush and rest bloom cycler. If you can get Moore’s roses, Sweet Chariot is very small 2x2 feet and so lovely, but not really self cleaning. However, the older blooms in the cluster just get darker mauve when dried so each cluster gets a multi-tone color look. Lovely rose fragrance. Then there is the popular grocery store red and white stripped mini, Gigi, that laughs at 100 degree days. Stays 18 inches for me, pruned to 12 inches. No fragrance but a cut bloom will last 2 full weeks in a little vase by the kitchen sink :-) not self cleaning and needs deadheading, but she is so tiny it’s no work.

  • jacqueline9CA
    3 months ago

    I garden in the Northern Calif. SF Bay area, truly a perfect Mediterranean climate. All roses get way bigger than they are supposed to here. So, I am very happy with Little White Pet, because it stays a nicely rounded bush completely covered with leaves and blooms about 3 ft tall without any pruning. Blooms almost continuously for at least 9-10 months a year. Very healthy - I never spray it with anything, and just throw some time release osmacote on it once a year. Here is a pic of one of mine when it was just a couple of years old, and about 2/3rds of its final size. Just beginning to bloom - note all of the buds, ALL of which open!


    Jackie




  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    Here's Mrs. R. M. Finch, a polyantha that grows about 4' tall here.






    The Alnwick Rose is a shorter Austin, not too thorny. Upright.


    The Faun is a wonderful plant but might get big in your climate. Mine is growing under a tree with root competition and some shade and is a nice , shrubby plant approx . 4x5'.



    You mentioned Sharifa Asma. I have a grafted one in a 30" pot which is a wonderful, upright but branchy plant with great rebloom. It's a good size...over my head by about 2' but it's in a pot. I have an own root one in the ground that has slowly built up to be about 3.5' tall, maybe 4. It is in a dry spot . Doesn't bloom as much as the other one but it's more stressed.

    Purple Lodge is a shorter plant here but with great rebloom.




  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    @erasmus_gw your roses are all just stunning. I love that dark one. I will look into the Fawn. Sharifa Asma is one of the most beautiful DAs for me, but I think it might just get too tall here and I keep reading about it's fussiness in the heat. If I get a DA I want a healthy bloom machine (like golden celebration is for me, or munstead wood was), otherwise I'd rather have an old rose.


    That is a very nice Little White Pet @jacqueline9CA , I think I prefer the shape to Marie Pavie and some of the other polys, it looks somehow looser and floppier (not very techical terms, sorry!) which I think would suit the mixed border I have in mind. But 3ft is so big! I'm curious, do you have any other must-haves in general, since you are in a Med climate too?

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    3 months ago

    What about Pretty Jessica or potter and moore.

    MinaLoy thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    I did look for PJ a couple of years ago after it was recommended to me here as a good and especiallly fragrant container rose, I couldn't find any local stockists. I don't know if it's because it's an older Austin or just not great for the climate. Same with Potter and Moore. On the other hand, Mary Rose, Olivia, and Princess Alexandra of Kent are stocked by everyone...

  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    Thank you, Mina. You're lucky Golden Cel. gets no blackspot where you are. It gets a lot here.

    The Prince is another shorter one that blooms a lot but gets bs here.

  • jacqueline9CA
    3 months ago

    MinaLoy - In our true Med climate (hot totally dry summers and cool, wet winters), some of the roses on your original list get way taller than 3ft, just FYI. My SIL who lives nearby has The Fairy in her garden, and it has been 6 ft tall by 8 ft wide for years. You Can NOIT trust the catalog or internet opinions about how big roses get in very warm climates. Just saying..


    Would you be interested in a true miniature ground cover rose which gets about 10-12 inches high and spreads out 2-3 feet? In my pic of Little White Pet above, you can see some tiny leaves of such a rose in the lower right. It is white, and is called 'Arctic Sunrise'. I grow it next to a dark raspberry colored rose of the same habit, whose name I have lost. They have both been there within inches of the street with LWP for over 30 years, also healthy with no spraying or pruning, and just some extra water during our normal 6 month total drought in the summer. Here is a pic of the two of them growing together - between bloom cycles I just take a broom to them, to get rid of the finished blooms.


    Jackie






  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    3 months ago

    I got my PJ as a cutting from a friend. I don't know where else you could buy it from. Freedom gardens does carry it but I don't know if he ships to California. I mentioned both of these roses because Ingrid in thousand oaks counts them among her favorites that she has kept for years while others have languished. I will be sure to go through my rose list and pull out a few that I remember people having mentioned a while back for circumstances such as yours.

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Thanks @jacqueline9CA that is wise advice and definitely somthing I'll have to ponder a bit more, I thought I'd been quite generous with my plans for spacing in a mixed border but perhaps not generous enough or it won't be a mixed for long. I spent a few years limited to container growing and got a bit used to being able to keep things neat and under control. It's very frustrating that you can't trust the measurements from even local nurseries though, I must say.


    The ground cover in your photo is pretty (and kind of how I imagined lthe Fairy would grow - it sounds like I was wrong about that!)


    Thanks @Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley, we are in Italy but I will keep my eyes peeled for a PJ, it sounds like it's worth it. It's a shame when such well reviewed roses are taken off the market.


  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    3 months ago

    How did I miss that you were in Italy? LOL!

  • jacqueline9CA
    3 months ago

    MinaLoy - I think most of the "sizes roses grow" (especially for OGRs) data in rose books, catalogues, from nurseries, and on internet data bases like Help Me Find Roses are taken from other sources, the data are shared or copied over & over, and originally came from either England or the North Eastern US for some reason. That data do not work in the Southern US, the Western US, South Africa, Australia, Med climates like Italy, Southern France, & Greece, and many other warm weather locations where the winters are mild so that the roses do NOT die back in the winter. Other than asking on here for opinions from folks who actually do garden in Med climates, I have found looking at pictures posted on HMF to be helpful, as if you can see a pic of a rose growing 8 x8 ft somewhere in a climate similar to yours, it would alert you to ignore the "gets 3 x 3 ft" info.


    I made the mistake of believing the size info I saw when I started adding new roses to our garden 30 years ago, and the results were hilarious - many "small bush" roses turned out to be 10 ft - 20 ft tall climbers in our climate (I kept them because I love climbers, and like to let roses to what they want to). I just decided to ignore all such info, and looked around my neighborhood and at local roses gardens, and asked folks in my local Rose Society for info on whatever specific rose I was thinking of, as well as asking on here.


    Jackie

  • Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
    3 months ago

    I second Erasmus's recommendation of 'Louis XIV'/'Nigrette'. This rose looks puny but is quite tough, and has color and fragrance unusual in small roses. It grows easily from cuttings. My current plant is growing back from being cut down twice by mowing. I doubt it would get bigger than 45cm/18".

    I live in the province of Piacenza in the hills and have been growing roses here since 2003, mainly old and older varieties. I don't irrigate, and the soil here is poor, heavy clay where it isn't rock. About rebloom, my experience is that drought won't kill established roses, but they don't bloom without water. I don't think I've every found a "small" Tea.

    MinaLoy thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
  • seasiderooftop
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    Hi @MinaLoy

    I have been reading this thread with interest, but hesitate to comment since I have only been growing roses since last year, and also since I am growing all of mine in pots.

    I completely agree of course, that the labels can't be trusted for size in warm climates.

    Here in Malta, Iceberg has stayed nice and short but I pruned it severely at the end of summer. It bounced right back and is almost constantly blooming. Unfortunately it has almost no scent.

    Heritage stays a nice compact size, smells lovely and is tougher than her delicate looks, perhaps because she is a child of Iceberg.

    It's really too early for me to give more feedback than that, and in any case, growing in pots will probably mean mine won't get as big as in your garden.

    Here are some sellers websites I found useful:

    For OGR's, Ducher's website has a page for roses for hot climates, and the sizes given there tend to be accurate. They also have great customer service and are great at answering my many questions.

    https://roseraie-ducher.com/en/22-roses-for-hot-climate

    For Austins, I love this seller based in Assisi, the heights they indicate on their website are the heights that the roses reach in their garden, and there are pictures to give you an idea of growth habit. Sure, Assisi is not quite the same as Tuscany, but they are really good with answering questions and communication.

    https://www.quandofiorirannoleroseassisi.com/

    MinaLoy thanked seasiderooftop
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Thank you Jackie from steering me away from making the same mistake, although I'm sure your rose jungle was/is a beautiful sight! It's hard accepting that you probably only need 1 rose where you wanted 4, but I will try to restrain myself.


    Locally, the garden centres are full of Austins and there are lots of old-rose nurseries around so people must be growing them somewhere. But I mostly tend to see a lot of stunning but aboslutely huge climbers and ramblers, and then lots of island beds with those very tall upright roses with bare legs (the complete opposite of what I like in terms of roses and planting style). They seem to get chopped down to almost nothing in the winter, perhaps that's the secret...


    Thanks @Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 your garden sounds wonderful, I think you might have given me some good suggestions a few years ago when I first moved from England to Italy. I love dark roses and I like the sound and look of Louis XIV, does it crisp in the afternoon sun? Our garden is small and I'm happy to pamper my roses while they get established, but I feel the more drought-tolerant the better with the summers of the last few years. Also I spend part of the summer in England and long-term I need things that would be happy with an occasional watering from a neighbour, at most. I'm happy to let other plants do the heavy lifting in July and August as long as I get a long season of flowers in spring, autumn and even winter.


    @seasiderooftop thanks for those links, the Ducher list is very interesting and the Assisi site has some useful comments on suitability and size in the Italian climate. Good to know they're helpful. Do you really garden on a seaside rooftop? How wonderful if so. I've spent a few years growing Austins and a few old roses in (pretty tiny) pots and I was always very happy with how they performed. Heritage is a lovely choice. I've always liked Sister Elizabeth too, interesting to see they stock it. My favourites are still the Portlands/Damasks though, I don't think I'll be able to resist ...

  • seasiderooftop
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    Yes, I do garden on my roof, about 150m from the sea. :) The roses have to be tough to handle the wind, the Maltese summer heat and a bit of salt too.

    The Assisi website has quite a few of the older Austins, which is really great!

    For my order with them I stuck with new-ish ones, that hopefully won't get too big : Olivia, Princess Anne, and Desdemona. I'm not too sure about Desdemona, to be honest I got her for the fragrance, but the other two are supposed to be quite tough and stay on the small side. Have you grown either of these?

    I can't resist the Portlands/Damasks either! So many wonderful roses.

  • erasmus_gw
    3 months ago

    I don't know if all roses grow bigger in warm climates, because heat itself can sometimes affect a rose adversely and also lack of water. I imagine you can still get some useful ideas of relative sizes from someone in a different climate.

    What a charming picture that is, Jackie. The colors remind me of sprinkles on a cupcake.

    A couple of other shorter plants that bloom a lot: Eugene de Beauharnaise and Souvenir de la Malmaison.

    Eugene...what a bloomer!


    Souvenir de la Malmaison




    Another one that is short here is Martha Gonzales..it blooms a lot as well:




    Archduke Charles is a moderate sized China here. I once had Le Vesuve which never got huge. Ingrid inspired that one for me, but I think it was too cold here for it one winter. Blooms a lot.

  • jacqueline9CA
    3 months ago

    Le Vesuve is one of my favorite roses. It is also a good example of a rose which LOVES warm weather (said to be an old tea rose by some experts, and a china by others) , and although it is said to stay medium small in cold winter climates, it does not do so in warm climates. Here is a very old pic of my garden when we first moved in, with a Le Vesuve which was very very old, and had not gotten much care at all. (We did discover years later that this monster was actually 2 bushes of LV - it had tip rooted itself at some point). Anyway, a perfect example of why you should get rose size estimate from people who grow that rose in the same climate you garden in:


    Jackie



    MinaLoy thanked jacqueline9CA
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Oh I absolutely LOVE that bloom on Eugene de Beauharnaise, @erasmus_gw . How do you find it as a plant? It doesn't seem very widely available here and the one nursery that mentions it makes it sound quite fussy, maybe a good container rose? It's beautiful.


    SLDM is my favourite, currently I have the climbing version (accidentally, she was sold as the shrub) and she has been an absolute star here, even when forced to live in a tiny pot for years. Some balling in our wet springs but she's so realiable the rest of the time I don't care. Right now she's covered in buds... she was my first rose and it's been hard to find anything that lives up to her.


    That rose is a beast, @jacqueline9CA , but a beautiful one. But three or so of those would be my whole garden, hence my concern about everything getting enormous!


    @seasiderooftop your list (and your rooftop) sounds great. I've seen Olivia and I really like her, she is one of my 'backups', what I'll plant if the old roses I'm dreaming of turn out to be too sickly and fussy.

  • mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
    3 months ago

    I have a small garden and a very warm med. climate. You mentioned Munstead Wood. I love him! He is one of my favorites. I have him on his own root. He has a tendency to grow sideways and stays about 4 feet by 3 feet or so. His beautiful burgundy blooms turn dark pink in the summer.


    I have grown Sharifa twice and both times have removed her from my garden. She does get big. Not much bloom. Doesn't like the heat here. She is beautiful but I think there are better roses out there for my garden/climate. A good one that looks similar to Sharifa is Mary Magdalene. Stays "small" for an Austin. Great scent and can really take the heat. She is practically out of production, so get her quick if you are considering her.


    Another great Austin that stays about 4--5 feet tall and maybe 2--3 feet wide is Pretty Jessica. Great scent. Takes the heat. She is gorgeous and one of my favorites.


    One more Austin--you mentioned that you can get Austins which is why I am mentioning them--that seems to be able to take the heat is Jubilee Celebration. She doesn't seem to get too big but she is still pretty young in my garden. Very nice flowers.


    I like Ralph Moore roses. He bred them about 60 miles south of me, so I know they can take the heat. One of my favorites is Peppermint Parfait. I hesitate to mention his roses since I don't know if they are available there or not. It is a beautiful cream and white striped rose. Takes the heat with no problem.


    Kordes roses are grown without pesticides, etc. Plum Perfect did well for me. Oh, and the Barni rose, Occhi di Fata also did great for me. Grows mostly upright and the flowers turn from white to pink. Only Barni rose I grew but if I had the space, I would grow more.


    My other roses are old or older roses or minis. So I am not sure you can get them there or not, so I won't mention them. I do love Alice Hamilton and Vick's Caprice. Two of my favorites. I really like the rose Minnie Mouse. It is a small climber or a weeping rose. Beautiful flowers and the bees love this one. I LOVE striped roses.


    Minnie Mouse



    Munstead Wood



    Vick's Caprice

    MinaLoy thanked mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Thanks @mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9 ! I have grown Munstead Wood before and really loved it. It was happy in a pot so hopefully that's a good sign it willl stay smallish, but it's one I will prioritize. I will have a look for Mary Magdalene, she's lovely. Pretty Jessica seems like a popular recommendation but nobody seems to sell it these days here annoyingly.


    Feel free to recommend any old roses, especially if they are reflowering! We can get a lot here (although not everything) and I am always happy to discover a new rose even if it's not available to me - it's probably better that way ;-). I just love the history, the romance of knowing that something in my garden is also growing at Sissinghurst or Mottisfont is hard to resist.


    Vick's caprice with the subtle stripes is gorgeous! How is the plant? I know very few Hybrid Perpetuals and there are so many, it's hard to know where to start when picking out the 'good' ones. Is it very upright and stiff (this is my probably incorrect image of an HP)?


    Barni are just down the road and I've bought a few roses there, I must admist I've never paid much attention to any of theirs though as I'm always distracted by the displays of all the old roses, but maybe I should take another look.

  • mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    My Hybrid Perpetuals, I can't say they are all upright and stiff. Vick is a flirter. He and Mary Magdalene have a thing going. My Princess Alexandra of Kent was getting a bit jealous and started to grow towards him even though she was in a separate bed. BTW, Princess Alexandra of Kent gets huge in my climate.

    Vick tends to get a bit big but with more weeping canes, that make him bushy. His flowers are stunning. He is an absolute favorite of mine. I have to hold him back with some plant supports, due to the size of my yard and the bed he is in. They help to keep him upright. He gets so loaded with flowers, I am concerned that his canes will break.

    I love Barni roses. Check them out on HMF. I just wish I had the space here to grow them and that they were more available here in the US.

    Another breeder that I like is Warren Millington. I believe there is a nursery in Belgium that carries his roses? Garden with Warren Millington roses If they were sold in the US, I would be first in line to try them here and see how they do. Since I have had great luck in my Hotter than Hades garden with Australian breeders, I am anxious to try his roses. They are beautiful. Enjoy the video!


    Here is the nursery in Belgium

    La Glanerie
    Rumes, Hainaut B-7611
    Belgium

    MinaLoy thanked mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
  • Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
    3 months ago
    last modified: 3 months ago

    About 'Louis XIV'/'Nigrette', it probably does burn in the sun. My roses that get some shade, not too much, tend to do better than those that bake all day in the summer. I know ALL about full sun, and have a very low opinion of it: much better hedges backing up roses, trees here and there, subshrubs to protect the legs of roses....we're working on it. A rose I don't recall seeing mentioned on this thread, though perhaps someone has, is another old, red, fragrant HT, not as dusky in color as 'Nigrette': 'Barcelona', sometimes sold under the name 'Francis Dubreuil'. This is a tough plant and desirable for color and fragrance--likely it burns, too--and I think it doesn't get too big, or, at least, it can be kept to reasonable dimensions. I don't currently have it, and would like to hear other posters' opinions.

    P.S. Since you're concerned about your roses' water needs, I think it's worth emphasizing that, in my experience, established roses don't die of drought. We had an awful year here in 2017, very little rain for a whole year, so bad that the province ran out of water and it had to be brought in by truck, but the unwatered roses were fine. Last summer was also very bad, I'm not sure why, but I lost a number of plants. Again, the roses came through with flying colors; they were varieties that had shown themselves to be well-adapted to the climate and soil.

  • bart bart
    3 months ago

    Being in a bit of a hurry, I didn't have time to read all the posts in this very interesting thread. I totally agree that a hot Mediterranean climate does NOT automatically equal giant roses! Jacqueline's gardening on what must be excellent soil, cultivated lovingly-if I understand her situation correctly-for generations,and I think she CAN irrigate. My situation is much closer to Melissa's (BTW, good to hear from you again Melissa! it's been a while...). I, too, have a "very low opinion" of full sun, lol! So, one way to keep your plants smaller is to let them rely on rainfall for irrigation,and grow'em in full sun! That's meant sort of as a joke,but I can confirm Melissa's statement that healthy, established roses are very drought-tolerant. They don't bloom, and basically go sort of dormant, but they do survive. I, too, lost a couple of plants last summer; can't help but think that some are just beginning to succumb to too many excessively hot summers,but none of them were healthy, established roses (one was a ceanothus ,and they are supposed to be uber heat-and-drought tolerant!!!)

    Sad to say, I don't think that Aunt Margy's rose or International Herald Tribune are available in Europe. I only know of one nursery that has Sweet Chariot http://www.rosesanciennes-talos.com/galerie.php?alias=Insolite . This nursery Talos is in France, and SC is sold under the name of "Insolite"...

  • seasiderooftop
    3 months ago

    @MinaLoy

    So interesting to see your comment about SDLM!

    I am thinking of exploring the Bourbon class next year, but I have read soo many off-putting comments about them becoming riddled with every possible disease, and totally defoliating before the end of the season.

    If they are sensitive, I think the climate must be a big factor there too. Since they supposedly originate from a warmer zone, I am hoping they might be ok here.

    How healthy is SDLM for you? Do you have to spray it? Do the blooms hold up well in the summer heat?

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    @seasiderooftop SDLM loves the heat but she doesn't like humidity much. We get very wet weeks in spring/autumn where it just rains torrentially for 10 days straight, and the blooms ball then. She can also suffer a bit from mildew, but nothing terrible in my experience. I do spray but very eratically, and I tend to surround my roses with companion plants, which probably isn't the best way to avoid fungal disease but will hide the occasional spotty leaf or two. Climbing SDLM for example was all tangled up with another climbing rose and star jasmine on a trellis and looked just wonderful.


    I can forgive her sins because she pumps out the most gorgeous flowers non-stop all summer and autumn. She's been happy for me on a very hot, exposed roof terrace and against a south facing wall in tiny (like 30cm) pots, and now she's in the ground on a fence with sun most of the day and is looking just as happy for now! I love the Bourbons too, and am thinking of trying a couple on a fence/tripod, despite their reputation. They are so elegant to me. Louise Odier is one that's touted as especially heat-loving and constantly in flower by the local nurseries her,e.

  • MinaLoy
    Original Author
    3 months ago

    Thank you Bart and Melissa for the reassurance re drought, as long as my roses don't die I wll be happy for them to take a summer break, and if that keeps them a manageable size all the better. This has been such an educational thread for me, thank you everyone.


    Francis Dubreuil sounds like another interesting one. Despite the potential for crispiness, I can't resist those dark blooms. Does anyone grow Arthur de Sansal? I fell in love with the photos I've seen and was in touch with a nursery who was very persausive about its merits in the summer heat, despite the potential for sprnig sickliness....

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