This is the other side of the plant. The plant stake in the forground is just a little support for the mom. The plant kind of flops against it. It doesn't have anything attached to it.

I'm holding the mom flower spike.

Close up of the keiki. The mom flower spike is sticking up behind the roots. The keiki flower spike goes off to the right.

I'm following this thread and wanted to comment so I get notices.

This is excellent! I am making careful notes for when my keiki gets big enough to leave its Mom!

Question, though. When I do a search on "rhizome clips" I get two different kinds of things. Little green clips that would hold the stalks to a support and metal clips that look mostly like hooks.

To be clear, I assume you are talking about the latter?

Thanks, Denise

dsegel, yes, the latter. U shaped hook on one end, straight wire on the other. They are designed to clip onto the rim of a standard clay pot,-- but will work on plastic pots-- and the straight wire puts pressure on the rhizome, or the bark mix in the case of Phal's. to hold plant stable in the pot. They are designed for top heavy Cattleya type orchids. I just make my own, from coat hangers, or a bit heavier wire, as needed.(coat hangers rule in my greenhouse) Cut the straight end off so it does not reach the far end of the pot, then you can push it down on the bark mix without it hitting the opposite side of the pot.

Bill

The mom plant has made aerial roots because the mix the plant is in is not good. Mother plant is making aerial roots, which is fine. Its keeping mom alive. The baby is doing well. Mom is spiking and I would not bother it at this point. It has roots, the keiki has roots and all seems fine.

I agree with Bill and the decision is whether to disturb both plants before flowering. If it was my plant, I would leave them alone until finish flowering. I would wait until spring to repot mom, then separate the keiki. Watch your watering!

I think increasing light was the best thing you did. Light is energy and life for a plant.

Personally, I would leave well enough alone, and enjoy the blooms. Mom looks fine and the baby looks good.

I'm a believer in Spring, longer sunlight, equals energy and growth.

Jane

Jane, Great to have you back. Thanks for your input, I'm waiting to hear from adardich concerning the Keiki, before we tackle the big plant. You have done a great job of setting that conversation up. Thank you.

Personal note to Jane...I'm going to attach a photo to this post that is intended to "polish off" your idea that SC is this warm balmy state all the time. I'm sitting at my computer while outside the trees are bent over with a growing ice load and the wind is gusting about 20-30 MPH, while the lights keep flickering off and on. It's cold outside, and we are living in an all electric home. If I sound a bit distracted, I am. Running through the few real possibilities I have about dealing with the greenhouse if we go all night without power...and we just may do that. If I don't show up here for a few days, at least you will know I am busy with other things. Just thought you'd like to know :- )

Bill

Bill has provided very good instructions but I agree with Jane on timing of any intervention. If it was mine, I would wait for the flowering on the Keiki to be over before separating it from the parent even if were spring or summer. The keiki is relying on the parent for nourishment at this point. Making it go solo is already a stress on the keiki, making it do so while in buds is double stress. Considering the health of the parent, I would think it has at at least some good roots in the media to have those healthy leaves and a spike.

If I was 100% convinced that the roots of the parent in the media are in a very bad shape, I would carefully and gently repot the parent by removing old media, cutting off only the fully dead roots and put it back in fresh media. I would leave any roots that are suspect but still mostly firm at least partly, I would leave on the plant for now and go back and remove them when the parent is done flowering. There is no urgency to remove the keiki at this point.

Ok.. Bill, I have several sizes of plastic slotted orchid pots. I've shyed away from clay because I've heard the roots stick to the pots and make it difficult to repot them without a lot of damage to the roots. What do you think about that?

I have been using fir bark, but I have been mixing it about 2/3 to 1/3 sphagnum moss. I did that because my plants are indoors and almost always air conditioned so I thought they would need more moisture retention because of the dry air. I used to water once a week, and when they started struggling I started watering lighter but twice a week. Should I leave out the moss? How often should I water?

The flower spike is coming from the keiki, but it points toward the roots, so I'm not sure how well that will pot. Here's a better picture.

While I sit here in my office waiting for this wind, snow, ice, sleet, or rain storm—whatever it decides to be at my location—to make up its mind, I want to preach a bit. I mean, it is Sunday, isn’t it?

Jane-NY has popped back onto the scene, and I truly welcome her to this conversation. Jane and I see this crazy hobby orchid culture thing a bit differently, and now is probably a good time to discuss it a bit, since we are posting with two new orchid growers, and with a topic that hopefully will attract other new growers over time.

If you think you want to grow orchids, and have never been to a judged, sanctioned, orchid show, please make it a point to go to the next one that is any where near close to you. I have been to my share of shows, and helped assemble several, and packed trucks with blooming display plants and thousands of seedlings for sale, and sent them off to shows across the southeast, and I can assure you there is nothing more breathtakingly stunning than a bank lobby, large conference room, or part of the main concourse of a mall, that has been transformed by orchid growers and their blooming plants. The love, exacting care, and just plain hard back-breaking work that goes into these shows is amazing, but the results will take your breath away.

Jane, in my opinion, is one of these folks. I would love to see her greenhouse, and some of her plants. I hear her on this forum describing how she treats the plants to assure the bloom spikes are presented just so, with the flowers all oriented for the best presentation, and on and on. I am just blown away.

I, on the other hand, am on the far opposite end of that spectrum. I have been in the jungles, and local swamps, and seen the plants growing, with other plants competing for their space, animals, and bugs, crawling over and about them, eating them, and still these plants manage to present themselves and their flowers in beautiful displays. I have come to believe that orchids are some of the heartiest and toughest plants God ever made, and if you take time to understand their basic needs—and wants—and try to give them those wants and needs, they will thrive through a multitude of “abuses”, and grace you with some truly beautiful displays of flowers. I think I speak with some authority here, having grown plants in, I believe, the strangest environment ever, --3 months on a nuclear submarine—and moved my collection with their 8X10 foot home from SC, to KS, then to FL, VA, and back to SC over a period of about 10 years, and my plants managed to bless me with some pretty spectacular displays along the way.

What I am trying to illustrate here is that orchids are simply plants, The sales folks have hyped them into some kind of mystical mysterious things that require you to perform all these crazy things to or for them, in order to entice them to produce a bloom for you. To be perfectly honest, I have never seen a little “munchkin” running around in jungle tree tops, placing ice cubes around the roots of orchids. It doesn’t happen.

You want to grow an orchid or two? Great, do your homework, there are books on culture you can purchase, and I am sure some are on line—everything else is. Then, purchase your plant/s. I would certainly suggest you purchase from a commercial orchid grower if you have one nearby, and cultivate that person as a friend and source of valuable information, and supplies. Otherwise, all the “big boxes” have them. Beautiful, and “cheep.” Caution, for big box purchases, the vast majority of their plants are planted in clear plastic slotted pots that have been inserted in non-draining glazed outer pots for shipping. Before you purchase, lift the plant out of the glazed pot and inspect its roots. If the roots look all mushy and brown, or, if there is standing water in that outer pot……Go to another big box and check their plants.

At first you will certainly have questions, or issues with your plants. Seek out people who grow orchids—preferably near-by, or in the same growth zone as you) for assistance. Listen to their suggestions or reasoning, then put on your common sense cap, and decide what you need to do in your environment, growing conditions, and expectations, in light of what the experienced grower has said.

When we get into these forum discussions, sometimes Jane and I may seem to be saying different things, I have found that we both really are on the same page, just in different “books”. Her “book” is aimed at growing the most spectacular show plant she can get, and my “book” is aimed more at “these plants are tough old birds”, just give them the proper basic culture, and they will perform for you for years. We both enjoy growing our plants, and are proud of them and our accomplishments, and both love to see new growers come along, and want to do all we can to help you mature in the hobby. Thanks for the trust you have given us.

Sermon’s over, pulpit vacated.

Bill

Hi, getgoing, welcome aboard, and thanks for the comments. I just posted a rather long sermon here that was aimed at heading off some of what is now starting to happen. I believe there are probably as many different ways to grow orchids as there are orchid growers. What I am saying here is my opinion, and what I think I would do in this particular case. The vast majority of the posters here will have a different approach, or method, or way to handle the situation under discussion, and I believe that is great. It does put the burden on the grower with the problem to figure out which one of us so called experts has the best way for them to handle their problem. That happens when you go on a public forum with a specific problem. I try not to be demanding with my suggestions, but sometimes I do get pretty specific with my answers, especially when I have seen a particular problem in my plants and have solved that problem many times, and many ways, and have decided method X is the best way. Forgive me for that, it’s just me. I love to see new growers develop a common sense approach to problems, and learn to work through problems that way. I hope I am a help to them, and not a hinderance. But the ball is always in their court, and the decision theirs.

Now. Back to the Keiki….Yes, this is the first time I have seen a Keiki with a bloom spike as large as this one, and still attached, and it surely must be a stress on the little plant. But if you don’t take it off now, adardich is going to have a difficult time dealing with this crazy shaped plant over the winter, and may damage one of those spikes with a household accident. I believe the little plant is in good enough health, and tough enough to handle the stress. The fact that adardich has said that the parent plant is wobbling around in its pot is another vote for removing the little plant. I’m guessing with this at this point, but I believe we’re going to find completely rotted roots in the pot of the big plant, and waiting over winter to deal with that problem may be too long. Root rot, in my opinion really can’t be stopped short of major surgery, and repotting. Once it has set in, you can dry the plant out, and arrest it, but the pathogens are still in the pot, and each time you water the plant, they become active until the plant is dry again. Yes, worse case, we may loose one or both bloom spikes, but we should have two healthy plants to show for it, and a much more experienced grower. My assessment: remove the Keiki, and we’ll start dealing with the big plant immediately.

Bill

Hi adardich, you’re next. Yes, you are absolutely correct, orchids do dearly love clay pots, because the roots can grow into the surface of the porous clay, much like they do to the face of a rocky mountain, or a tree trunk. When you repot those plants, you can do a great deal of damage to the roots, and create much frustration for the potter. Now… Back when, I worked in a large commercial orchid nursery, we had a number of orchids that the growers thought just grew better in clay than plastic pots. (Primarily because they dried out faster, preventing root rot.) We had one lady that repotted these orchids, and she sat at a bench where workers brought her flats of clay potted orchids to be potted up. She had a pot of disinfectant, containing several clippers, in front of her, the plants on her left, and on her right side was a pile of wet orchid potting mix and the larger pots. Viney, (she had the most appropriate name in the company) would grab an orchid in one hand, and reach in with the other and rip the plant out of the pot, then carefully clip the torn roots off, and pile the plants next to the pile of potting mix. When she developed a pile of plants near the mix, she would shift position and start potting plants in the larger pots. It was a rare event indeed for Viney to lose a newly potted plant. She did much less damage to the roots than if she had tried peeling the roots off the pots. The secret to this is use wet potting mix, and when you put the plants on the bench, mist them, and forget them. For about a month, every time the plants got dry, I mean really dry, we would lightly mist them. Then we would start lightly watering them, and after about two months they would be on a regular watering schedule. Drying the plants allows the roots to heal, and keeping the plants dry, makes them thirsty, and it’s the roots job to get out and find water. They really get interested in growing.

Lets start the next question from the bottom up. Ref. the paragraph above. You water your orchids when they get dry. Putting sphagnum in your Phal. Mix is a good idea indoors, so long as you allow the plants to get dry before you water them. You said you watered the plant once a week, and then started watering them twice a week. I know, you said “Lighter twice a week,” but water is water. Let’s see how close I am to being correct with this statement. Your big plant is in a plastic slotted container that is inside a non-draining ceramic container. When you watered the plant, you either left the inner pot in the liner, or you replaced the pot in the liner as soon as you finished watering. Either way, water collected in the outer pot, and the roots sat in that water for an extended amount of time. = root rot. Now, don’t feel bad about that, the overseas growers are well aware that most of the buyers of their plants have never grown orchids before, and when they get one, they water it like any other house plant, except this one doesn’t drain, so the natural assumption is that that little outer pot must be there to keep the roots in water, like they must grow in nature. Bingo! They just sold someone another plant. Orchids grow attached to the trunk, or limbs of trees, and sometimes in crevices of rocky faces of mountains. When it rains, the entire plant gets soaked. When the rain stops, all the water drips off, and the moss and lichens, and piles of roots from other plants begins to dry out. If it doesn’t rain for a week, they don’t get soaked for a week, they only get the airborne humidity and dew that occurs at night. Basically, they get soaked, and then dry out, repeated over and over again. They have air circulating around their roots all the time, making them dry even faster, that’s why we use the porous bark mixes to pot them in. Stick your finger down in the pot, and if it is dry, water the entire plant. Another method is to pick the pot up and “heft” it in your hands. If it feels heavy and cool, its wet, water it later. If it feels room temperature and light, its dry. Water it tomorrow.

Your last question is why I suggested rhizome clips. If you decide to take the Keiki off, you will want to get as many of the roots in the new mix as possible, or at least laying on the mix. The bit of extra stem and the clips come into play here. You may have to cut the clips off shorter so they will fit inside the pot, but use a clip to put pressure on the extra stem you left attached to the Keiki. Put that stem under the bark before you put the clip on. Be careful if you use multiple clips around the roots, you don’t want to bruise them up too badly. Get the roots in the mix, on the mix, or as close as you can to the mix. Clip the plant securely in the pot so the bloom spike sticks over the edge of the pot, or put a stake in the mix and tie the spike up to that. Careful not to break the spike. Don’t worry about the plant, so long as the leaves are sticking out of the potting mix. The plant will grow into the position it is comfortable with over time. Should you decide to wait until spring or summer to do this, that’s fine by me, just be very careful moving that crazy shaped plant around—don’t want to break any bloom spikes. And be very careful watering it, because it does still have root rot that loves water, in that pot. Have fun.

Bill

Ok I probably won't be able to get the supplies and work on it till the end of the week. I'll come back when I'm done with the keiki. Thanks all for your input!

I could only find big pots (7in) and small clips (4&5in). I think the clips will work on the pots, but the pot is probably too big for the keiki. I have all these other sizes of plastic. Speaking to the ceramic pot comments from earlier, I knew it was best for them to have circulation but the plastic pots are so light they seem to need a ceramic pot to stabilize them. This plant is in my best one. The pattern you see is holes and there are rocks in the bottom so the plastic pot doesn't sit in water. I've done this kind of thing with any I've repotted, but I have a couple that were given to me recently that were still in the tight ceramic pots. That doesn't relate to this... I guess I just felt like I needed to confess it ;) So should I put the Keiki in plastic?

I found a smaller one! I'll soak the keiki tonight and pot it tomorrow.

adardich, There is nothing wrong with putting your orchid in those thin plastic pots. It's what you do with/or to the plant in that pot that causes the problems, and it sounds to me like you completely understand the problems watering can cause in a situation like that, and have addressed those problems correctly this time. Using the rhizome clips on that thin plastic may cause you some difficulty getting the plant anchored securely in the pot, but who cares what the clips look like when you are finished potting your plant. They are there to keep the plant from jiggling around in the pot and damaging the growing root tips, not for decorations. I have a supply of coat hangers and some other wire a bit heavier, and just make my own as needed. Go back about 5 days on this thread and check the photo I posted with my note to Jane, kidding her about her thinking SC did not get very cold in winter. (its snowing here as I write this) The plant in the window with the brownish looking blooms, should have been repotted 4 years ago. It is still in the plastic pot and non draining decorative container it was originally sold in, and I just can't keep the thing from blooming and growing like a weed. You have a good time tomorrow repotting, and let us know when you are ready to deal with that "big Lady" that is patiently waiting her turn.

Bill

The Keiki is successfully potted :) Ready for more instructions.

Ok, adardich, first question is...Is mom completely dry? don't do this if she is still "wet in the pot". If it is good and dry, then lets take Mom out of her pot, and see what we have. This is going to be a rather large project, so lets have several clean, sharp, and sterile razors of some sort. Sterilize them often, and dispose of your cuttings often, because your plant is infectious. When you get the plant out of the pot, take off anything that is completely dead. Be very careful doing this, because you do not want to damage the plant, its bloom spike, and especially not the new roots. When you get the plant out of the pot, and roughly cleaned off, post a photo of it on here so we can all see what we have to work with. (I forgot, take the bloom spike the Keiki was attached to off the plant. Cut it off about an inch above where it grew out of the big plant. That will reduce the difficulty you will have handling mama.) Now the hard part. place the big plant in the pot you will plant it in, and let it sit. You want it to get really dry, because we don't want to overlook any dead material, and pot that stuff while it is still attached to the big plant. Sitting won't hurt your plant for a day or two, it's been sitting in that old pot with only the live new roots sticking up out of the pot, and now that you have removed all the dead roots, those same new roots will be doing exactly what they have been doing for quite some time now...keeping mom alive. And now the big plant has a reduced burden, since you have removed that frisky little Keiki that thinks she's a big girl now, and can grow flowers like mom, mom's job just got easier.

Bill

Ok, I didn't realize mom would need to be dry and I just watered her (lightly :) this morning. Since she is easier to manage now I took the plastic pot out of the ceramic pot for the first time in awhile and was shocked to see she has lots of green roots! All the old roots that are visible from the top are brown and mushy and the plant flops all around but there are a lot of healthy looking roots too. I'm so embarassed I didn't check that before but I've been afraid to move it around much. Does this change things?

Where are you located? Warm climate or cold?

Bill, love reading your posts. Haven't been here for a while. I do like to grow orchids to exhibit their beauty. However, once about a time, I was a newbie and learned over the many years.

One thing I learned, when growing in a cold climate and indoors was to wait until the light levels increased and the temperatures warmed up. These are tropical plants. I look at Phals spiking in early winter as the end of their growing period. I let them flower before doing anything. Just a strong habit I've developed over time. I do that with all orchids.

I have a strong belief that with good light levels you can grow orchids in anything, shoes, mounts, tables, lol. The point being, when disturbing any plant it is best to wait until warmer weather and longer daylight hours. They need good light to recover. It is like major surgery.

Even living in Florida, sunlight is the number one guide to repotting or doing anything drastic to a plant, that includes all plants. Sunlight is at a minimum for the next few months. Warmth is lacking. Unless growing under lights in a warm room, it is not the best time (in my experience) to do anything drastic.

However, you have done some major changes to both plants. Time to keep them warm, well lit and look forward to Spring.

Jane

I would love to say I told you so but I understand why you thought there was a problem. Large phals can "crawl out of the medium, especially if not potted firmly in the medium (or if they are in a windy location) because they are top heavy -all the foliage at the top wanting to take its natural position of facing to the side looking down (that is how they do not get crown rot in the wild). Your potting medium appears to be healthy (not degraded) and roots too seem healthy. You say the roots visible at the top are brown and mushy. It is not unusual for the arial/surface roots to turn brown and shrivel up for various reason -salt accumulation at the surface, fertilizer burn, dehydration. Mushy is what I would think is a problem. One or two oldest roots in the center of the medium turning musht over time isn't unusual but any at the top would be odd and problematic. Are you sure they are mushy? Mushy means rot. Mushy is when they slimy to touch and disintegrate when squeezed, and turn hollow with a gel oozing out.

In any case, removing the keiki obviously helps not hurt the parent. You can decide whether to repot now or later. I have found that healthy phals potted in chunky bark don't miss a beat if the roots are disturbed or even upon repotting if they are repotted in similar media. Next time in doubt, don't be afraid to pick the inner pot for examining the roots.

Jane, I'm in Clearwater (west, central Florida). Lots of sun, rarely overcast, subtropical. January and February we kinda switch back and forth between A/C and heat, and the plants are inside. I do have one mounted on a tree outside that also has a spike if that tells you anything? These are my first flower spikes, so I had assumed this was the begining of spring growth. I think I got this plant in the summer, so I thought if it was going to have a second bloom it would have happened before this, but I guess moving it to the sunnier window is probably what made the difference. On that topic, I thought they didn't like a lot of direct sun so I had them in an east window with a thin curtain. They weren't doing well so I opened the curtain and then they all started looking like they were streching for the sun. So I moved them to a south window with no curtain and they stated growing like crazy. Do you think I should add a curtain?

Getgoing, I called the roots mushy because they were wet when I felt them, but no they are not slimy or oozing. They are brown and empty.

adardich, I see lots has happened since I last checked in, and all sounds very encouraging. It appears to me that you have some very sound advice from other sources, and that should make you feel very good. It does me. When you are new at something, its always encouraging to hear the same good suggestions from multiple sources. I was all prepared to be dealing with a serious problem of root rot, and I think we have dodged the bullet here. I do have the same concern as getgoing, about you saying your older exposed roots are mushy. If they are old, and stained brown or black, with wrinkles, but still firm when you squeeze them between your fingers, and not falling apart, they are probably ok, and just natural "old" roots. Which IS nothing to be concerned about. If they in fact are soft and mushy when you squeeze them, and drain ugly dark liquid, that is something to be concerned about, and we can talk more. If your roots are truly healthy, I'm on board with your two supporters of not repotting til spring, or at least after the plant blooms.

I would, however fix that problem of the plant wobbling around in the pot, because that will destroy the new growing root tips, and cause you more heartache down the road. Use a couple of your rhizome clips and clamp the plant in the pot firmly. You may have to add some fresh mix to the pot to give the clips something to push against rather than roots.

Also, do not be afraid to take that plastic liner out of your ceramic container. I take mine out each time I water the plant, and let it drip dry before I replace it in the container and put it back on the shelf. That gives you a chance to get a good look at the roots, and to pour any water that has collected in the container. (I think I remember now that you said your ceramic container had drain holes in it...that is unusual, and very good). You simply do not want your roots sitting in water.....ever! The advice from here is clamp mama down securely, put her back in her growing space, and enjoy. It was a fun adventure, with a surprisingly good outcome. I had fun, and if there were others lurking about, I hope you learned a few good orchid culture tips along the way. Thanks all, for the help, and you adardich for supplying the patient, and take good care of the new baby.

Bill.

There's no goo at all. The roots are empty and papery. I'm sure they are wet now because the media is wet and when it dries out they are just dry and completely dead.

I normally do take the plastic pots out, but this one was so top heavy and floppy I was afraid the whole thing would snap off or something any time I needed to mess with it much.

I will clamp it down now. Thanks for all the adivce!!!

Adardich, good going!

Haven't been back for a while,, but had no idea you were in Florida. FWIW, my Phals all grow outside on my lanai. Faces East. Lots of morning sun, until about 1pm. They are happy, tons of growth, lots of spikes. I find they really can take more sun than recommended. Mine do.

Its best you repotted mother plant, and the baby.

I have to forget my NY days growing in the frigid North. Florida is so much easier for plants and me!

Bill, I can't believe you had that snow and cold temps. I've been toying with the idea of moving to the Carolina's. If you are that cold in S. Carolina, heaven knows what goes on in N. Carolina. I think I need to think this out further.

Jane

Sorry it took so long to reply. Both plants are doing great. They both had a beautiful bloom and I repotted mom after that. Now it has a second spike growing :) They would probably be happier outside, but I hate it out there :{ . It's just so darn hot. I'm originally from Ohio, transplanted against my will as a kid 35 years ago, but very much a northerner at heart. Thanks again for all the advice!!

In a nut shell, because there was so much to read..Do you encourage growing orchids in clay pots rather than plastic???

Mike

Jane, hi)))

Hi, Mike, good to see you!

When I grew orchids in NY, I used some plastic pots because the dry heat indoors would dry them out quickly. However, I found that under my care (which was not the most attentive) my plants grew better in clay. During the very dry indoor environment in winter, I started using trays under the plants in clay. I used pebbles to raise the pots but let the very bottom sit in water. The clay would soak up the water keeping the humidity levels higher. I also used small humidifiers around the plant area.

Florida is different. I would never, ever use plastic. Humidity levels are very high for 7 months or more. Rain is scarce during the winter, spring months. July starts the downpours and continues into November. But if the pots drain well, air circulation is good and light high, I get good growth and good flowering. However, I have to watch for fungal problems and treat quickly.

It really was a learning curve for me after growing for 30 years in a cold climate and then moving to a hot, humid sub-tropical climate. I just moved a huge Phal from a clay pot (wind blew it off the shelf) and sat it in a large wood basket, planning to repot into a larger pot.

Went on a trip for two weeks to visit family, never repotted, came home and this huge, bareroot Phal had roots going crazy all over and attached to the wood basket. I looked at it today and wasn't sure what to do with it. My guess is it loved air flow around its roots, sunlight on its roots, and loads of moisture from the rains but drying out when the rains stopped. A more natural environment for the way it grows.

Put it back on the shelf. Might just leave it. Certainly looks very happy!

I like to tell new growers to join their local Orchid Society and meet people in their area, learn their tricks and listen to their advice. Bring some of your plants to the meeting. Most are not pros but just like you and me trying to read our plants and their habits. See what changes (some so slight) can produce happy or unhappy plants.

The best way to learn is to keep trying.

Jane