Need pics please.

There we go! ill try to add to original post too

@HU-187528210 I like being able to turn and drain large pots of water and not have to walk. just worried if the island is the primary clean up sink I will be tossing boiling water into someones path. Though typically I have the kitchen to myself during those situations.

I would absolutely keep your prep sink in the island. Your main sink is too far and your island is a barrier. Your DW belongs next to the cleanup sink on the wall (I'd probably put it to the left of the sink in your kitchen). You can add a dish drawer off the side of your island for easy loading/unloading of dishes. I know 96" sounds big but once you put in a ~3' sink and a 2' DW you're not left with enough room for prep (only 3'). FWIW we extended our island to 10', & pushed our DW and sink to the end to get sufficient prep space (we have no other place for it in our kitchen, so it goes in the island). DH initially thought our island would be huge, but when he finally saw the sink installed he said "wow, it looks a lot smaller than I thought".

I'd also move your fridge to the other end of that cabinet run, and widen your aisles there to at least 48". You can't put a fridge up against a wall as it's shown there now, plus that location is too far from the action.

I'd put the dishwasher to the left of the sink and move the refrigerator to the right of the sink with dishes stored in the cabinets in between. I would also keep the island sink. While there may be more room for the dishwasher to the right of the sink when open, I like it better on the left so that the space between the sink and fridge acts as a breakfast bar. It also puts it closer to the prep zone for easy loading of prep/cooking tools.

I forgot to note that in the plans the island placement is approx a

and the 2 sinks can be bigger or smaller. that was more just for plumbing purposes

@anj_p regarding fridge do you mean it can’t go there due to code or it just is not a good spot functionally?

@Jacqueline Amidala, a fridge right up against a wall will mean that you will not be able to open the door past 90 degrees and possibly not be able to open/remove any drawers. You can keep it in that location but you need to add a filler/spacer between fridge and wall to give enough clearance for the fridge door to open fully.

Move the range to the left so that you can place the refrigerator on the end of that run so it is accessible to both sinks. Slide the prep sink over so that you have more counter top space in front of the refrigerator. I'm constantly in and out of the refrigerator while I am cooking and I think that you will find it inconvenient if you leave it so far away from your sinks.

Depending on your family size and the amount of entertaining that you do, I would consider flanking the clean-up sink with two DWs. There's many old threads on the subject. It is one of the best things that we did in our remodel.

Drawers and pullouts should be a priority.

Minimizing steps is also important

I think you'd be happier with a dish drawer and silver drawer located beside the DW and not too far from the daily dining area.

Your work triangle is not good in this kitchen. You need your appliances closer to you.

Locate the dishwasher next to the sink and locate the sink wherever your kitchen designer suggest it should go.

Where do the openings lead to?

Your layout is not good.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

@cpartist looking at plans straight on the top right corner goes to mudroom, halfbath and garage. left corner leads to pantry and dining room and bottom opens into living room

Can you share four first floor plan?

Your not four

@mdln thank you! That post is gold

I’m now unsure this plan is to scale… standing in the kitchen the cooktop to fridge does not seem very far

If you have a prep sink in the butlers pantry do you need one in the island too?

Very bad layout because you're coming from the garage or powder room or laundry through your kitchen work zone.

Add to that you'll need roller skates to prepare any meal with the way your appliances are laid out.

How much leeway do you have to change things still? Or is this a tract home?

If you keep your prep sink the layout won't be that bad but you need to move your fridge. And your range could scoot over a bit too (closer to the fridge).

Your drawings are to scale (otherwise you have much bigger problems). You might not think it's far but once you start using your kitchen and hiking to your fridge you will find that it's annoyingly far. And annoying that you can't open the left door fully.

You also have plenty of room to make your aisles bigger, so you should.

To answer your original question, DW goes on the window sink wall to the left. Prep sink stays. If you can make that aisle bigger so people can walk through to the PR while people are doing dishes, even better (48" min. 60" better).

If you keep your prep sink the layout won't be that bad but you need to move your fridge. And your range could scoot over a bit too (closer to the fridge).

It's still bad because the kitchen winds up as hallways to other rooms.

Your drawings are to scale (otherwise you have much bigger problems). You might not think it's far but once you start using your kitchen and hiking to your fridge you will find that it's annoyingly far. And annoying that you can't open the left door fully.

Agreed.

You also have plenty of room to make your aisles bigger, so you should.

Agreed.

To answer your original question, DW goes on the window sink wall to the left. Prep sink stays. If you can make that aisle bigger so people can walk through to the PR while people are doing dishes, even better (48" min. 60" better).

Actually facing the sink, it would go on the right so as not to be in the pathway coming out of the mudroom or in the work zone. But reworking as much as you can would be better.

@cpartist right? one reason I was temped to leave the right bank alone even though we have the option of a sink right there. Unfortunately we waited too long to move the fridge (if we want waterlines). We’ll just have to make that work…our current fridge is WAY outside a work triangle so I’ve gotten very effecient at ”one stop fridge shopping” and will contiune that for the future.

@Sherry Brighton I do like the sink steps from the range, but yes 3 sinks might be overkill?

It shouldn't be a big deal to add a new water line for the refrigerator. Don't let that stop you from improving your layout. Although you're currently used to a refrigerator in a remote location, you will be much, much happier if you move it closer to the action in your new kitchen. I also agree that the aisle from the mudroom through the kitchen should be at least 48", 54" even better.

What Cheri just said. Adding a water line is not a big deal.

And if you're building new and spending 6 figures of your hard earned money, you shouldn't have to just be "efficient". You should have it so it's a joy to work in and right now what you have won't be.

I don't know how far along you are with framing etc, but this reframing would be a huge improvement in your layout.

By flipping the pantry and the entry to the dining area, that allows for an enclosed work zone. Fridge is basically in the same spot.

Easy now to run a new line for the prep sink and now you have a nice space to prep between your sink and cooktop. Ovens are moved over but are still out of any walking path.

Yes the cleanup sink is still in the way of the mudroom path.

Even keeping the prep sink on the island this plan works better.

@cpartist wow! that makes way more sense. I should have come here a long time ago and saved some hassle, time and money! Appreciate your time to redo the plans!

If you eliminate a sink, eliminate the one in the butler's pantry. A prep sink is very useful, and really almost necessary in your kitchen so you're not bumping into people going to the PR while you're cooking. A butler's pantry sink is a nice to have but maybe not super useful unless you entertain a lot, especially given your space isn't very big. I'd probably prefer more counter there for staging of food/stashing dishes.

If you can rework as @cpartist suggested, that would be the best option. You could even make your pantry entrance directly from the kitchen and not through the butler's pantry (hidden pantry door) with the prep sink on the island. Island prep sink or wall prep sink is personal preference IMO.

I suggested DW on the left so it would be accessible/close during prep. With a prep sink, it won't be in the work zone. If you eliminate the prep sink, it needs to go on the right. It will be in the way of the aisle in either spot, which is why you should increase your aisle width there. If you don't like to load the DW or have it (easily) accessible while you prep, it can be on the right.

@cpartist wow! that makes way more sense. I should have come here a long time ago and saved some hassle, time and money! Appreciate your time to redo the plans!

Better to get it right now, even if it costs a bit more than to live with something that will be annoying for a long time.

And thinking about the prep sink, I personally don't mind looking at a wall when prepping and washing food stuff as I'm focused on what I'm doing. However, if you prefer to also have a view, I'd keep the prep sink on the island.

Of course another thought is if you're like me and getting up there in years, having it along the perimeter makes it easier as you don't have to carry prepped food stuff across the aisle.

If you eliminate a sink, eliminate the one in the butler's pantry. A prep sink is very useful, and really almost necessary in your kitchen so you're not bumping into people going to the PR while you're cooking. A butler's pantry sink is a nice to have but maybe not super useful unless you entertain a lot, especially given your space isn't very big. I'd probably prefer more counter there for staging of food/stashing dishes.

Agree!

BTW: whether you keep the bar sink in the butler's pantry or not, I instead made the cabinets 21" deep instead of 24".

@anj_p @cpartist super helpful suggestions thank you. now im wondering if that window wall should even have a sink being its a pathway. It is plumbed so will probably need some type of cabinetry, but maybe just add more windows and leave it alone. hmmm many new things to consider

You are better off with the sink there. See my first comment - your island is not big enough for a sink, DW, and prep space, especially if you make your aisles the recommended widths. Just because your kitchen isn't perfect doesn't mean removing that sink makes it better. Having that be the ONLY sink in your kitchen is also less desirable, which is why your kitchen needs a prep sink.

There are kitchens all over the place that have some part of them serving as walkways. Not every kitchen can be perfect which is why there are so many questions about them on this forum. Unless you want to redo your entire house's layout, it is what it is. You are not going to have a parade of people going to the garage or to the PR while someone is cleaning up the dishes or unloading the dishwasher. It will happen once in awhile, and probably only when you have large gatherings. Don't eliminate the sink there just because its location is less than ideal. It isn't a fatal flaw, and it makes your overall kitchen design better.

In our custom design my kitchen was ideal in virtually every respect, but I planned it that way. We couldn't afford to build that home, so we're currently building a tract home. In this one, our kitchen is a pathway to our garage, powder room, and basement (fridge & ovens are in that aisle). It is definitely not ideal, but the builder wouldn't let me change it, so it is what it is. There are 3 people in my house 99% of the time, so I think we can manage the inconvenience.

Yes put the sink there. While not 100% ideal, you will still be glad you have it and that it's out of the way of the "work zone" of cooking. Being that it's not the cooking/main prep zone, it will be ok as it's only for cleanup and cleanup doesn't take too much time nowadays.

And like anj_p says, we all have to make some compromises from the best to good. The best is the work zone I set out for you with the island, fridge and prep sink. The good is your cleanup zone.

I would keep the dishwasher on the right side of the cleanup sink so that if you have someone helping in the kitchen, they can prep to the left of the sink and move it to the cooktop more easily.

And the more I think about your layout, the more I think you should keep the sink on the island which will mean your two sinks are a bit closer to one another. This will also make it easier to move any utensils from the prep sink to the dishwasher.

BTW: Are you planning on a microwave? If so, if it were me, I'd put a drawer microwave in a cabinet next to the fridge.

@cpartist undecided on microwave. What about a warming drawer?

^^^ I find I use a microwave almost daily for heating up stuff or defrosting, or softening, etc. However your usage may be different. You need to do what works for you.

If I were building a home to sell or for myself, your last layout was the best with the passageway inline with the range corridor. Keeps you from bumping into people gathered around the far side of the island.

Use the large sink on the window wall for cleanup, dishwasher directly left or right, uppers either side of window for storage.

Use a sink in the island for prep. Try to increase the space between the range and island to 48" but some do less (do pay attention to deeper commercial style ranges). This way more than one person can work comfortably without assaulting the other.

Make sure the cabinet or kitchen designer uses the refer specs to assure clearance for doors, etc.

@Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor thank you. very help for resale considerations

Where's the Trash/Recycling? I have a pull-out for that to the left of my cleanup sink, with DW to the right. (I don't like disposals, and there's always stuff other than garbage.)

Think about where you'll put stuff out of the DW. (Cabinets)

Good point chisue. I have my trash/recycling by my prep sink with a small trash next to my cleanup sink. That one hardly gets used.

@chisue trash/recycling on the side of the sink without dishwasher so probably the left side side. With a compost tub (its actually a large plastic ice cream container with lid where ever I‘ll be prepping). The sink window wall is 36” deep so with a 25” deep counter i think theres still enough room to stand there and not be in the way of PR path. And as @anj_p we only have 3 people in our house the majority of the time so there likely won’t be too much path crossing. also looking into the Fisher & paykel drawer dishwashers which will give more pathway clearance when open.

So… to answer my original question… im going to put the dishwasher on the window wall near the sink. I like the idea of the cleanup area away from the other zones and a nice view out while cleaning up. As for the rest of the kitchen layout…that remains TBD I really appreciate all the feed back!

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out. :)