Moss recommendation for a small garden

2 years ago

I have a regular suburban lot that I garden in and would love to plant a moss rose. Both Treasure Trail and Robert Leopold have caught my fancy...but RL looks like it will get too big. Do you all have recommendations? Favorites? Thank you!

Featured Answer

User

2 years ago

I wrote a multi-paragraph expose on this subject yesterday, and my browser crashed, so I lost 45 minutes of writing. Yay.

Here's a summary:

- 'Robert Leopold' is a HUGE plant - mine currently reaches 15 feet up into a hawthorn. It does not rebloom after the spring flush. Its 22 years old and it has never flowered again after the first blooms. And its not especially generous with bloom quantity either. In fact, its quite stingy, considering the size of it.

- 'Gabrielle Noyelle' is pretty, but its got a lot of problems: very poor shrub architecture (floppy long canes that go every which way, looking like a stack of broken coat hangers), very poor disease resistance, modest rebloom, and the flowers fade in hours to a dishrag peach color. Mine died from chronic Blackspot infection when I stopped spraying in 2010.

- I won't comment on 'Treasure Trail' and 'Unconditional Love' because I'm biased. Though I will say that 'TT' isn't especially Blackspot resistant here in the PNW. But the flowers are beautiful.

- 'Deuil de Paul Fontaine' must be a very different rose in a warm, dry climate, because mine was awful here in the PNW Zone 8. It never exceeded 20" tall, and was chronically affected by Mildew and Blackspot. After about 10 years, it dwindled down to a sad looking twig and died. I don't miss it.

- 'Lady Moss' is a beautiful thing! It reminds me of a Mossy 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' at times. But like most all of Ralph's Mosses, it doesn't have good Blackspot resistance in my experience (though its very Mildew free) It grows to about 4 X 4 feet and is quite good with repeat bloom.

But the best Mosses (IE: easy to grow, disease free, vigorous) are some of the OGR types, such as 'Salet', 'Mrs William Paul', 'Henri Martin', 'William Lobb' (exquisite smoky lavender!), 'Nuits de Young', 'Capitaine John Ingram' and 'Soupert et Notting'. Only 'Salet' and 'Soupert et Notting' are remontant.

I also have an unidentified white OGR Moss in the garden that is quite pretty, with dark brown moss and pure white 'Mme Hardy'-esque blooms. Oh, and 'Comtesse de Murinais' is another white Moss that is very sturdy, healthy and pretty.

If you can find it, Ralph Moore's 'Fakir's Delight' is a spectacular Moss in the "novelty" category. Its a very large climber type, with R. bracteata ancestry. It flowers in cycles through the year and the large cream-white blooms have a peachy scent. Thorny as heck, but oddly, the thorns are not sharp. I don't know if anyone offers it anymore.

Comments (32)

roseseek
2 years ago
Personally, I would definitely lean more toward repeat-flowering varieties so you can prune them harder if needed and still have flowers. I LOVED Deuil de Paul Fontaine! It flowered as continuously and reliably as any floribunda in the Newhall garden. How it might perform in your colder area with shorter flowering season is anyone's guess, but in the 9b mid desert, it was gorgeous! Lady Moss (Moore) was another continuous flowering moss. Gabrielle Noyelle flowered repeatedly there but was a larger plant which handled self pegging well. Mme Louis Leveque was very nice and repeated. RVR indicates it should grow 3' - 4', though with my lighter pruning and longer season, it was larger. Look at Paul's "Unconditional Love". RVR shows they list 44 mosses and supposedly have 20 in stock!
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smithdale1z8pnw
2 years ago
Capitaine John Ingram, very healthy and I find the colour and fragrance captivating.
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User
2 years ago
I bought René d'Anjou from Roque Valley Roses recently. I can't comment on its ultimate size as it's brand new for me, and came as a band, but it's supposed to be moderately sized and a good repeater. René is my first and only Moss so far. I would love to try Deuil de Paul Fontaine, but RVR is out of stock on that one--I did subscribe to the waitlist, though.
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roseseek
2 years ago
@User I HAD to grow Paul Fontaine after reading ROYAT's description of the color containing brown and it beng a "real he-man" of a rose color. I'm not sure I saw anything resembling brown to my eye and I LOOK for add tints and tones in flowers, but it smelled good and it flowered all the time, so I really enjoyed it.
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Brandon Garner
2 years ago
If it be available again, I rec recommend treasure trail. great rose
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librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@User thank you for rewriting everything today. I really appreciate it, especially the observations on black spot and mildew. Out of everyone who commented here, your climate is closest to mine. I think I'm just a little south of you in the Willamette Valley, in Lane County (I live very close to the McKenzie River).

It sounds like one of the OGR mosses would suit my climate best, although the two Ralph Moore mosses you mention sound wonderful too. What a gorgeous photo of Lady Moss!

I've been drawn to William Lobb and Captaine John Ingram for their purple/lavender color. Does anyone here have a better experience with one or the other?

Im going to go read more about Salet and Soupert et Notting, too.

I really appreciate all the comments here from everyone. I learn so much in this forum.
User
2 years ago
@librarian_gardner_8b_pnw 'William Lobb' and 'Captaine John Ingram' have very different growth habits! 'Captaine John Ingram' is a more typical OGR Shrub in habit: fairly low grower (5 feet) and spreading by suckers to form a restrained thicket, arching canes to a degree, compact, as Mosses of this sort tend to be. 'William Lobb' is much more like a climber, growing to 8-10 feet over time. It tends towards keeping only a few large canes that branch to expand the plant's size. It's unique among the OGR Mosses for its color: starting out a vibrant crimson and purple blend, fading to a smoky grey-lavender color. Its coloring just before the bloom shatters is amazingly beautiful. It reminds me of the Papaver rhoes 'Amazing Greys' I grow.
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oursteelers 8B PNW
2 years ago
I hesitate to comment because my Capitaine John Ingram has been in my yard less than a year and is in a large pot so I have no idea how he will do long term but I wanted to show you how absolutely gorgeous he is
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roseseek
2 years ago
Thank you for bringing up Fakir's Delight, Paul! (God, how Ralph HATED that name! But,he USED it!) Do you remember the MOUNTAIN it formed in the ground at Sequoia? Carolyn HATED propagating it because of the prickles and was annoyed it was named and released. She blamed me for it and I proudly stand blamed (and guilty!). When he landed in the hospital after badly reacting to the blood transfusion at 99 years of age and we all gathered at the nursery to wait our turns to visit him, Carolyn handed us each a list of roses to collect cuttings from to give her a leg up on propagation. She needled me about Fakir's Delight when she pushed my list in my face. She wanted 50 cuttings as she felt that would sufficiently "punish me" for my part in its release. I gave her 150 cuttings of all sizes and you couldn't tell anything had been pruned from that monster! It was precisely because of those tightly formed, downward hooked prickles it reminded me of a bed of nails, hence Fakir's Delight. It really is a remarkable thing. Bracteata, moss, miniatures from Wichurana...such "alchemy"!
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librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
Original Author
2 years ago
@User thanks for the information about growth habits--in the end, that may help me make the decision. Both WL and CJI seem to have beautiful blooms that are both different from each other. @oursteelers 8B PNW your CJI looks stunning! Did you buy it from Heirloom?
oursteelers 8B PNW
2 years ago
I did….before their last price hike. I REALLY don’t know if I can buy from them anymore.
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User
2 years ago
Alfred de Dalmas / Mousseline is supposed to be another short one. Ingrid used to grow it and post pictures of it.

I'd like to try Soupert et Notting, but based on the descriptions and pictures, there seems to be more than one rose being sold under this name. (That's never happened before, right? :-)) It's supposed to be a short compact rose, but some people are getting something much larger.
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Roz OHzone 6
2 years ago
Treasure Trail is one I wouldn’t be without. I’ve grown it for many years. Here, zone 6, it never gets larger than two feet tall. It has the most unique blooms; is remontant; fragrant, and the heavily mossed buds are stunning. One of my favorite things is the luscious fragrance of the moss when I run my hand across it.
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Deborah MN zone 4
2 years ago
Hello. I grew Soupert et Notting in zone 6, KY and it did very well. Totally hardy and healthy and it stayed small, say around 4x4 after 4 years. I ordered mine from Rogue Valley Roses. I grew CJI also, it was much more vigorous and spreading.
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portlandmysteryrose
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Chiming in on Salet and Capitaine John Ingram: I LOVE those two! Both are mannerly and not too big (4’ ish when pruned annually) for my tiny urban garden. Salet has a huge, looong spring flush here plus bonus blooms ALL summer. VERY fragrant and disease free. Prunes up nicely after the spring flush. I support mine with curved stakes. Ditto CJI on spring flush, fragrance and health. No remontancy but OH THE COLOR! Our Steelers’ pics say it all. I also adore the mannerly and deeply seductive Nightmoss! I am training mine tied against a free-standing trellis as a supported shrub in the middle of a front garden bed. VERY fragrant and healthy. Paul crossed two of my favorite roses, Tuscany Superb and Nuits de Young, to create this gorgeous purple velvet rose. William Lobb is a favorite of mine for its history, color and fragrance, but it is a thorny sprawly thing and a literal pain to train in a postage stamp sized garden. I recommend Nightmoss if you don't have a fence or back of the border trellis for William Lobb…and I recommend NM even if you do have a spot for WL. WL is gorgeous, healthy and very fragrant in my experience. All my mosses are own root. Nuits de Young suckers a lot for a small garden, so I didn’t recommend it to you. The others either hardly sucker at all or don’t stray far from the mother plant and are easily sliced out of a bed if you wish. Looking for any moss photos…. Carol
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portlandmysteryrose
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Salet own root from Vintage Gardens
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Roz OHzone 6
2 years ago

Treasure Trail buds on October 31
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portlandmysteryrose
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@User

Where on earth did you find Papaver ‘Amazing Greys’?! Wow!!

Carol
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roseseek
2 years ago
Baker Creek Seeds (AMAZING catalog and great people!) sell the seeds as well as MANY other "OMG!" types. https://www.rareseeds.com/store/vegetables/new-items-2020/amazing-grey-poppy Image stolen from their catalog.
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smithdale1z8pnw
2 years ago
Annie's Annuals carries the plants, not in stock now but I'm sure they'll have them as we get closer to Spring.
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librarian_gardner_8b_pnw
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@portlandmysteryrose I really appreciate your detailed sharing. Your climate is very similar to mine so your experience is informative. The spot im thinking of does have a fence I could train on and WL is in stock at HCR, so I think I might go with WL over CJI (although those blooms! So amazing! I do have Belle de Crecy though, which has a similar look). It's good to hear that suckering won't be a major issue. Oh your photos of Salet are gorgeous...I just don't know where I would plant it!

@Roz OHzone 6 your description of TT is exactly what I'd hope for. I'm hoping RVR will have it in stock next year. Even if it may be prone to blackspot here...it just looks so unique and beautiful that I'd love to try it. Would it be okay in a very large pot or half wine barrel? @User how big did it get for you?

Thanks so much to everyone who shared here. There are so many wonderful mosses to choose from and it's been so much fun reading everyone's comments.
portlandmysteryrose
2 years ago
Thanks, Kim and Smithdale! What IS it about grey petals? I just go ga-ga. I am going to look into the grey poppies from Baker Creek and Annie’s for sure. I know Annie’s but somehow (how?!) missed these ethereal poppies in the catalog. Baker Creek Seeds is a delightful new find! Just when I think there are no wonderful nurseries left undiscovered…wow!

Librarian, you are most welcome. WL is an absolutely gorgeous, purple, mossy, fragrant piece of history! And that fade to grey thing leaves me breathless. Just wear thick gauntlet gloves while training him!

Carol
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roseseek
2 years ago
You're welcome, Carol! Do you remember the Heirloom Expo Jeri and others attended every year? That's Baker Creek! You WANT their print catalog! I kept it on the breakfast table for weeks to browse while enjoying my eggs. Wonderful! The attraction to grey petals is they usually don't exist. It's the same as with grey, green, brown, striped, stippled and "blotched" rose petals. They are unusual and extraordinary, not to mention gorgeous!
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User
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
The "Amazing Greys" Poppies are my favorite discovery in the past couple years. I'll grow them every year.

Apologies for wandering way off topic.
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Diane Brakefield
2 years ago
Paul, I've had my eye on that gorgeous poppy for some time. I love Lauren's Dark Grape and have grown it for years from gathered seed, plus it reseeds like crazy, as I'm sure Amazing Grey's does, too. Diane
Diane Brakefield
2 years ago
User
2 years ago
@Diane Brakefield Actually, I've been surprised by how poor the Amazing Grey Poppy is for producing seeds. Here at least, very very few blooms result in a viable seed pod. Often there are just 3 or 4 seeds in a few of them, and occasionally you can find one that has 40 or 50 seeds in it. I had to make an effort to hand pollinate a lot of blooms this past summer, just to get a tiny vial of seeds.

For whatever reason, it seems this variety is reluctant to set seed.
Diane Brakefield
2 years ago
Paul, do you have a shortage of bees at your place? Or other pollinators besides yourself? Diane
User
2 years ago
@Diane Brakefield Not at all. We are in a pretty rural location, and there are many apiarists nearby. The Cherry and Apple trees are buzzing loudly with their pollinators every year.

And that is why it surprised me that Amazing Grey doesn't set seed easily. I don't know if the growers who sell the seed have the same problem, or its just something related to my climate. Other Poppies I have grown have been generous with seeds, just not these.
Diane Brakefield
2 years ago
I was sure you had bees aplenty. I may not try the gray poppy after all. I rely on having a lot of seed to gather each year. The purple poppy produces a ridiculous amount of seed. Diane